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[DEBATE] Who is the greatest player in NHL history to NEVER win a Stanley Cup?

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Elias Pettersson
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Who is the greatest player in NHL history to NEVER win a Stanley Cup?  

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J-Dizzle Canucks Regular

J-Dizzle

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1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

I'm not sure how much value I would place in that SN list since they put a locker room cancer in the top 3.

I’ve often been among the first to criticize Messier… that being said, I’ve been listening to Rintoul’s WCE podcast series and a lot of the players on that team seemed to have good things to say about his impact. 
 

As fans, it just looks like he mailed it in for a paycheque and ran an all time favourite player and captain out of town. So, I get - and have often embraced - the disdain… but there might be more to his tenure then we sometimes see. 

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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11 hours ago, J-Dizzle said:

I’ve often been among the first to criticize Messier… that being said, I’ve been listening to Rintoul’s WCE podcast series and a lot of the players on that team seemed to have good things to say about his impact. 
 

As fans, it just looks like he mailed it in for a paycheque and ran an all time favourite player and captain out of town. So, I get - and have often embraced - the disdain… but there might be more to his tenure then we sometimes see. 

Messier is hated because he was the enemy.   And it created a rift in the locker room, Linden and his main supporters, G were traded.    That said you're absolutely correct,  Naslund must have said a dozen times, how much Messier helped his game.   Have mentioned this before, one comment made by a Sedin, from Sundin, about how to approach the playoffs because they'd had issues come the post season, "just play them like they are regular season games", and that's turned into "Sundin is the reason the Sedins peaked" and have even read on here that Kesler and Burrows improved because of Sundin as well.   A half season lol, he didn't have that much of an impact of course.  

 

Where as, Naslund was singing Messier's praises for a couple years, and that's buried completely.  They did  play together for 3 years.   Shows how much disdain is still around.    And get it too.   Would be like Chara coming here in 2014 or something.   He'd be the lighting rod for the teams failures for sure. 

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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11 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

I think if we're talking only about retired players - the Sedins would have to have some consideration. There will never be two players like them ever again. 

This is true and why they are on the list.   But having watched most of these guys, some were just on another level.     Quite a few really. 

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Kevin Biestra Canucks First-Line

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2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Where as, Naslund was singing Messier's praises for a couple years, and that's buried completely.  They did  play together for 3 years.   Shows how much disdain is still around.    And get it too.   Would be like Chara coming here in 2014 or something.   He'd be the lighting rod for the teams failures for sure. 

 

Would be like Chara coming here in 2013.  All of Daniel, Henrik, Kesler, Burrows and Lu actually WANT to stay.  Chara has them all sent packing and Chara also demands PP1 time while going for a Sunday skate much of every game, deploying himself as RW when he feels like it and also stops hitting.  Plus given Messier's cheap shot on Linden in game six, it would also be like Chara had speedbagged Henrik's face instead of Marchand doing it to Daniel...then showed up and took Henrik's C.

 

 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

This is true and why they are on the list.   But having watched most of these guys, some were just on another level.     Quite a few really. 

 

Yeah Daniel and Henrik are great but as I think you said their peak was two years and that peak wasn't as high as the peak of some players on the poll that also lasted five years or longer.

 

And I'm just guessing but I would have to assume that of any forwards in the Hall of Fame who started after 1970, Henrik has to have the least goals.  Less than Guy Carbonneau and, well, he has one more than Bob Gainey.

 

 

Edited by Kevin Biestra
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J-Dizzle Canucks Regular

J-Dizzle

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3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Would be like Chara coming here in 2013.  All of Daniel, Henrik, Kesler, Burrows and Lu actually WANT to stay.  Chara has them all sent packing and Chara also demands PP1 time while going for a Sunday skate much of every game, deploying himself as RW when he feels like it and also stops hitting.  Plus given Messier's cheap shot on Linden in game six, it would also be like Chara had speedbagged Henrik's face instead of Marchand doing it to Daniel...then showed up and took Henrik's C.

 

 

I think Keenan was actually the bigger issue… 

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Kevin Biestra

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10 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

I think Keenan was actually the bigger issue… 

 

It took the two of them to hollow out the team like a termites nest but Messier was happy to be Keenan's teacher's pet.  By the time he got to the Canucks, Messier had fallen in love with his own leadership legend and actually became the worst leader I have seen in Canucks history...by a country mile.  And that came through later on as well when he thought he was entitled to the Rangers head coach job with no coaching experience.

 

Real leadership is standing up to Keenan like Brett Hull when Keenan scratched Dale Hawerchuk...when the team was on the road to play with Dale's dying grandmother in the stands.  If Messier was ever someone that would have stood up to Keenan over something like that...he wasn't anymore by the time he put on a Canucks jersey.

 

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King Heffy Canucks Hall-of-Famer

King Heffy

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1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

It took the two of them to hollow out the team like a termites nest but Messier was happy to be Keenan's teacher's pet.  By the time he got to the Canucks, Messier had fallen in love with his own leadership legend and actually became the worst leader I have seen in Canucks history...by a country mile.  And that came through later on as well when he thought he was entitled to the Rangers head coach job with no coaching experience.

 

Real leadership is standing up to Keenan like Brett Hull when Keenan scratched Dale Hawerchuk...when the team was on the road to play with Dale's dying grandmother in the stands.  If Messier was ever someone that would have stood up to Keenan over something like that...he wasn't anymore by the time he put on a Canucks jersey.

 

As a fiercely patriotic Canadian, I hated Hull growing up.  I've grown to really respect him as a man.  His father is a different story though.

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Kevin Biestra

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On 4/6/2023 at 9:40 AM, King Heffy said:

As a fiercely patriotic Canadian, I hated Hull growing up.  I've grown to really respect him as a man.  His father is a different story though.

 

Yeah it sucked watching Brett play for the USA but he was loyal to the team that gave him a chance.  Team Canada passed on him for the 1986 World Juniors but Team USA wanted him.  Honestly, I respect him more for sticking with Team USA after that.

 

Bobby...hell of a hockey player anyway.  If there's something good to be said about him off the ice I remember an interview where he was asked what he was better at than Brett when it came to hockey and he said "nothing."  The next question was what was Brett better at than him and he said "everything."  Obviously Bobby was twice as fast as Brett when it came to skating and was better in other ways too but he was pretty humble there for the benefit of his kid.

 

I met him once at one of my hockey tournaments way back when...he was nice to me but of course why wouldn't he have been.

 

Of course I'm aware of his lesser deeds off the ice.  That reputation goes back a very long time, especially further out east.

 

Edited by Kevin Biestra
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RUPERTKBD Canucks Hall-of-Famer

RUPERTKBD

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On 3/30/2023 at 8:20 AM, Ghostsof1915 said:

Brad Park should get a mention. He was playing in the era of Bobby Orr. And was probably one of the top 5 defenceman in the league at the time, maybe even #2.

In 1973-74 he got 82 Points in 78 games for the Rangers. And a 148 PIM's! One of the few non-Cup winners to be in the HHOF.

He was clearly the #2 guy at the time. IIRC, he finished 2nd in Norris voting virtually every time Orr won....

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RUPERTKBD Canucks Hall-of-Famer

RUPERTKBD

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On 4/1/2023 at 9:04 PM, iceman64 said:

Dale Hawerchuk got my vote...  Quite the player, followed by Bure but that's a bit biased because he was here but man that guy could skate, dangle, and deke like it was old hat, and the way he reacted when he scored? Classic!! But Hawerchuk? Wow 

 This is everything he accomplished

He also got away with a blatant hook that won us the '87 Canada Cup....(thanks Koho) B)

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Kevin Biestra

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5 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

He was clearly the #2 guy at the time. IIRC, he finished 2nd in Norris voting virtually every time Orr won....

 

Yeah Brad Park (Jimmy Page with short hair) was 2nd for the Norris six times and 3rd another time.  He just ran into a juggernaut.  It was like someone else trying to pry the Art Ross out of Gretzky's hands in the 80s.

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RUPERTKBD Canucks Hall-of-Famer

RUPERTKBD

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On 4/4/2023 at 5:45 AM, IBatch said:

Gretzky did have a rep for using his influence with the refs.    As far as whining goes I suppose that's up to the eye of the beholder.   It was Gretzky that made sure the team stuck around the village, and supported the other Canadian athletes after they lost in Nagono  (and their heart wasn't in it after Hasek stoned them, gold or bust in 1998).   Meanwhile Keith Tckpuke was trashing the rooms with some of his mates - that's a different type of "leadership", and then they packed their bags and left.     Then again in 2002, when team Canada faltered, made an impromptu passionate speech about the media circus "taking shots at Canadian hockey".    He wasn't a stoic quiet leader like Sakic, but still considered one of the best the games ever had.   SN ranked him 4th.   Behind Beliveau, Messier and Howe, always made sure new teammates were welcomed, and was modest to a fault about his personal accomplishments at a time the spotlight was roasting hot.    Made it about the team.  

I heard it was Chris Chelios....

 

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