[WCF] Vegas Golden Knights (P1) vs. Dallas Stars (C2) | Golden Knights win series 4-2

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah that Florida final in the 90s where they were throwing the rats was a little too early in their existence and I didn't like it at the time...but they have suffered adequately since like the rest of us.

 

I didn't like it and they even had a good handful of players I liked, old veteran warhorses from the 80s like Scott Mellanby, Brian Skrudland and Terry Carkner.  That was a team with next to no scoring.  Vanbiesbrouck kind of did the King Richard number and got them through three rounds.  Might have won the Conn Smythe if they hadn't been swept.  He absolutely refused to give in for that triple overtime fourth game...stopped all of the first 55 shots in over 100 minutes but they just couldn't score one goal for him.  Great goalie...too bad he couldn't keep from saying dumb crap and torpedoing his own good name for the rest of time.

That Florida team was for sure the original misfits one.   When we lost Walker to NSH I was super super pissed.  Ridiculous we'd have exposed him.   We sure didn't need too!   That was Keenan dick hole.   Burke didn't want to do it, but because he was new to the job relented.   Later admitted it was the first big strike and was for sure part of that short relationship.   WCE was a one line team.  With Walker it would have helped a lot, plus he had intangibles in spades.   Funny how both him

and Ronning, who in hindsight we should have kept, went on to help NSH gain some respectability early on, two bad we didn't keep both guys.   No Messier.  

 

As for Florida, that team had way more to like about it then Vegas first team except maybe MAF.   Little ball of Hate.  Beezer (glad you brought up his game four ...)  A rookie who was laying guys flat like Rob Blake before him in LA.    Those guys hated been left out to dry by their former teams, and definitely came together and gave the league a collective, gigantic, finger on the way.    Beat some good teams too.   

SJ managed this against Detroit.   But that was it.  Huge difference in expansion rules, but what they did gain, was blue chip vets who were close to done.   Vegas got Theodore.  And a bunch of guys who were barely started.   Seattle actually got a bit more of a mix of guys, but still started with depth.   Pretty easy to build a team when you get to pick a top four D on each team, or a top six, especially in a cap world.  

Edited May 17, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

That Florida team was for sure the original misfits one.   When we lost Walker to NSH I was super super pissed.  Ridiculous we'd have exposed him.   We sure didn't need too!   That was Keenan dick hole.   Burke didn't want to do it, but because he was new to the job relented.   Later admitted it was the first big strike and was for sure part of that short relationship.   WCE was a one line team.  With Walker it would have helped a lot, plus he had intangibles in spades.   Funny how both him

and Ronning, who in hindsight we should have kept, went on to help NSH gain some respectability early on.  

 

As for Florida, that team had way more to like about it then Vegas first team except maybe MAF.   Little ball of Hate.  Beezer (glad you brought up his game four ...)  A rookie who was laying guys flat like Rob Blake before him in LA.    Those guys hated been left out to dry by their former teams, and definitely came together and gave the league a collective, gigantic, finger on the way.    Beat some good teams too.   

SJ managed this against Detroit.   But that was it.  Huge difference in expansion rules, but what they did gain, was blue chip vets who were close to done.   Vegas got Theodore.  And a bunch of guys who were barely started.   Seattle actually got a bit more of a mix of guys, but still started with depth.   Pretty easy to build a team when you get to pick a top four D on each team, or a top six, especially in a cap world.  

 

Yeah I really liked some of the guys on that first Sharks team or two.  Doug Wilson, Kelly Kisio, Steve Bozek (king of the underdogs, big part of the 1982 LA Miracle on Manchester), Tony Hrkac, Craig Coxe, Mark Pavelich from the 1980 Miracle on Ice, Brian Hayward, Arturs Irbe.  Petri Skriko.  Our old fourth string goalie Wade Flaherty.  Jim Kyte who was deaf and carved out a nice long NHL career for himself regardless.

 

Playing in the Cow Palace.  It was hard not to like them a little bit.

 

They were the kings of prospects and high draft picks that didn't work out.  Pat Falloon was supposed to set the league on fire.  Kip Miller was the NCAA guy that was supposed to show up and make an impact.  Jim Waite was the World Juniors goalie hero who never got a foothold in the NHL.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[EdgarM]

Meh, I don't buy that "expansion team" complaint. Before the Cap, we had big market teams that had an advantage as well, but at the end of the day, that entire team is "hand picked" and it doesn't matter how many years you get, if you can't pick the right ones, that is on you.

It all boils down to the President and GM making decisions from the right Coaches to draft picks to signing reasonable contracts etc. in making a successful team.

 

[RUPERTKBD]

It's really too bad that both teams can't lose, because that's the only result that I would find satisfying....

 

Taking the Stars in 6

[RUPERTKBD]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well said.   I'd also consider the first two rounds of expansion that brought the NHL to 14 teams (including us), as a totally different thing.   2.75 better odds or something like that of one of those teams to get there compared to the 31st and 32nd teams.    Of the original expansion, only PHI did it, the first few finals were done differently, the original six played the final against the winner of the expansion teams ... so St. Louis doesn't really count.    Then in 72 the Islanders came to the scene.   They for sure lucked out with acquiring Potvin, but also drafted their core, and then supported it properly.     14 teams ... still way better odds than today.  

 

When the WHA came in, the league was a little diluted.   But the next phase isn't called the golden era for nothing.   Right until SJ, ANA,  TB and Florida joined the league.   That expansion thinned the talent pool too much.   And was as fans paid a heavy price.    And those teams for sure put their time in.   And they've been struggling to even keep to those standards ever since.  

 

As an aside PIT was part of the original expansion and had to wait almost a quarter century to raise a cup.   And had bad teams mostly until Mario started the upswing.   NJ was absolutely awful in the 80's, as the Rockies too.    Gretzky actually called them a "joke" and that they had no business having an NHL team, that's how bad they were.   It did however, parlay into one of the best teams for two decades.  

 

OTT was terrible too.  Of the early 90's teams, SJ actually did some surprising stuff with Irbe and Makarov.   But aside from that David vs Goliath thing (Detroit), also had to pay their dues.   ANA won a cup but they were around for awhile.   Finally LA won some cups.   PIT won a couple more.   And PHI peaked early or so it seems lol.   And of course St. Louis finally got it done.   And the Whalers took forever as well.    Just Buffalo and Vancouver left.    Both those fanbases ... well i'd be shocked if anyone over 40 would be that happy with Seattle and Vegas. 

 

Edit:  In 2000 the league expanded to 30 with NSH and CLB.   By that time it was more than evident by the extra goons coming in and with the 80's guys gone or long in the tooth, that the league watered itself down beyond quick repair.    Dead puck era was in full force, as a result of earlier 90's expansion.   An extra goon on every team, and slow but tough defenseman that were good at doing what the coach asked for plugging lanes and holding on.   The power forward away coveted still but also becoming harder to find.    Can't blame them, why would they want to drop the gloves with the "monsters " coming in.    Since the mid-90's i've been vocal about retraction.   Just relocate bad or underperforming fanbases/attendances.   It took the league almost another two decades to catch up to talent levels of a 24ish team level.   Always felt the league did this knowing their on ice product was nose diving.    Proof is in the pudding that they waited into 2016 to announce Vegas, you can bet they knew this all along too.   Post lockout was hilarious ... Guys from the 90's long in the tooth mostly led the league in scoring, almost completely really.

 

And back then I was hoping that meant ARI or CAR was relocating.   Raleigh has struggled to keep butts in seats too.    Also check out this cover ... WHA "Dominates" NHL in pre-season.    Gretzky and there no limits on drafting age, was the last straw for NHL owners.   Actually most agreed to buy them out early, two holdouts (Bruins and TO) was the only reason it took this long.  

I know this is supposed to be about Gretz and the WHA, but I can't get over the "Oilers Expect Sobchuk To Be A Super Star" headline....

 

Dennis Sobchuk eventually made it to the NHL....he played a grand total of 35 games (mostly with the Red Wings) and tallied 11 points....

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I know this is supposed to be about Gretz and the WHA, but I can't get over the "Oilers Expect Sobchuk To Be A Super Star" headline....

 

Dennis Sobchuk eventually made it to the NHL....he played a grand total of 35 games (mostly with the Red Wings) and tallied 11 points....

You bet.  I could send you about 100 mag covers that were so so wrong.   One has Yzerman already peaked.   Then he exploded.   And as far as prospects go - they are all over the place wrong.    Beezer went on to have a close to HHOF career a lot of Vezina voting years aside from his Vezina ... Yzerman exploded, got Hart consideration and won Pearson award despite Gretzky and Mario.    Should have waited a little longer before making bold proclamations that Yzerman had already "plateaued". 

Edited May 17, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I know this is supposed to be about Gretz and the WHA, but I can't get over the "Oilers Expect Sobchuk To Be A Super Star" headline....

 

Dennis Sobchuk eventually made it to the NHL....he played a grand total of 35 games (mostly with the Red Wings) and tallied 11 points....

Or how about this beauty ... check the date!  Just made me laugh.    Most of their stuff is a fun read.   And some of their writers are excellent.   But they sure got things wrong at times (also got it right too). 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

It's really too bad that both teams can't lose, because that's the only result that I would find satisfying....

 

Taking the Stars in 6

I don't mind the Stars that much.   Like how they are built, and at least we've got the Modano/Linden one two punch overall, and even better 1994 to think about.   Plus liked that they kept to their routes when they moved to Dallas at least.   Whalers didn't.   Neither did Phoenix/ARI.   At least COL kind of kept some of the Nords colours (and their entire team lol).    Not sure why you dislike Dallas, but get that everyone has a reason or two.  Personally liked that we beat Dallas in 94, and didn't mind they won a cup in 1999.   If we kept it up, we should have been ever better then. 

 

Edit: Also took Dallas in six, and hope they can do that.   Also wanted to mention, back when the world decided that Dahlin was the next Lidstrom I said no he isn't.   And that Heiskanen plays the game a lot more like he did.   Still believe he does.   At some point expect he's going to be a Norris winner.    Dahlin maybe too, but this kid's defensive game was there from the start.  Same size too. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Meh, I don't buy that "expansion team" complaint. Before the Cap, we had big market teams that had an advantage as well, but at the end of the day, that entire team is "hand picked" and it doesn't matter how many years you get, if you can't pick the right ones, that is on you.

It all boils down to the President and GM making decisions from the right Coaches to draft picks to signing reasonable contracts etc. in making a successful team.

 

If you can "hand pick" every fourth defenseman and/or a player from a teams top six...it's very different then picking a 6th defenseman and 3rd liners isn't it?   Not at all the same expansion rules.   They basically got a 5-6 year head start.    Back then you still needed to draft your team (pre-cap).    Especially with cap considerations and teams dangling guys praying they'd pick them - and adding stuff to make sure they would.   Funny thing, the Canucks were relatively unscathed both times because they didn't have a myriad of guys with NMC to negotiate around (leaving some good picks open) and well, compared to other teams we sucked.   ANA leaving Theodore yikes.    Fleury was a gift from PIT too.  Dunn from St. Louis.   McaAn from PIT.   A long list of guys.   GMs "swore" they'd learned their lesson from Vegas and they actually mostly did.   But still... two rounds and 13 games is better than any Canucks teams managed aside from our 3 runs to the cup and the Bubble.  It's not a fluke at this point for Vegas either.   They are a legit threat to win a cup. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by IBatch

[Pure961089]

Great audio clip.  Sorry to have to say it but there's a reason Budreau has never won a cup. Structure and defensive systems win.  https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/canucks-talk/structure-is-thriving-in-the-stanley-cup-playoffs/ Tocchet's system is in the same mold as Brind'amour . Similar hard nosed hard work players that get the most out of their players.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Pure961089

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

If you can "hand pick" every fourth defenseman and/or a player from a teams top six...it's very different then picking a 6th defenseman and 3rd liners isn't it?   Not at all the same expansion rules.   They basically got a 5-6 year head start.    Back then you still needed to draft your team (pre-cap).    Especially with cap considerations and teams dangling guys praying they'd pick them - and adding stuff to make sure they would.   Funny thing, the Canucks were relatively unscathed both times because they didn't have a myriad of guys with NMC to negotiate around (leaving some good picks open) and well, compared to other teams we sucked.   ANA leaving Theodore yikes.    Fleury was a gift from PIT too.  Dunn from St. Louis.   McaAn from PIT.   A long list of guys.   GMs "swore" they'd learned their lesson from Vegas and they actually mostly did.   But still... two rounds and 13 games is better than any Canucks teams managed aside from our 3 runs to the cup and the Bubble.  It's not a fluke at this point for Vegas either.   They are a legit threat to win a cup. 

I look at the Canucks and their one and done post seasons and think, all of the time they had to build a team and they bow out in the first round? That happened year after year after year, especially in the Nazzy years. 

The expansion teams weren't getting the cream of the crop, they were getting what every team thought of as "expendables". Yes there were some good players in there but like you said, the Canucks gave up nothing from their roster. 

These "plumber" type players become more important in the playoffs and we see that with the teams having success in the post season, including the expansion teams. We are too busy trying to get the fancy , flashy players and forget about the rest of the roster. 

Fancy, flashy players do well in the regular season and typically are not as effective in the post season(i.e. Marner, Matthews, McDavid etc.)

I am very thankful we have a Coach like Tocchet as he knows that the flash and dash do nothing to win you games and hard work and dedication bring you a lot farther.

If our team becomes anywhere like Vegas, I will be a very happy camper.

[bishopshodan]

2 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

Tocchet's system is in the same mold as Brind'amour

Both hard workers but totally different personalities. Rod is role model, motivator and known as a very, very good person. Rick is Rick. 

 

Rod is worth 10 Ricks. 

[Pure961089]

46 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Both hard workers but totally different personalities. Rod is role model, motivator and known as a very, very good person. Rick is Rick. 

 

Rod is worth 10 Ricks. 

Bruce was a good person too but that's irrelevant to being a good post season coach. Was Mike Babcock a good person?  No, but he won a cup with Detroit.  Rick never had much to work with in Arizona but with the Canucks he has players that can implement his system and that's what matters. We didn't hire Tocchet to be a nice guy we got him because this team needed structure.  

Edited May 18, 2023 by Pure961089

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Golden Knights in 7.

[IBatch]

13 hours ago, EdgarM said:

I look at the Canucks and their one and done post seasons and think, all of the time they had to build a team and they bow out in the first round? That happened year after year after year, especially in the Nazzy years. 

The expansion teams weren't getting the cream of the crop, they were getting what every team thought of as "expendables". Yes there were some good players in there but like you said, the Canucks gave up nothing from their roster. 

These "plumber" type players become more important in the playoffs and we see that with the teams having success in the post season, including the expansion teams. We are too busy trying to get the fancy , flashy players and forget about the rest of the roster. 

Fancy, flashy players do well in the regular season and typically are not as effective in the post season(i.e. Marner, Matthews, McDavid etc.)

I am very thankful we have a Coach like Tocchet as he knows that the flash and dash do nothing to win you games and hard work and dedication bring you a lot farther.

If our team becomes anywhere like Vegas, I will be a very happy camper.

I hear you.   It seemed like since 1989, and we almost beat CAL with Rookie Linden, unless we had him on our team, we weren't getting through one round of hockey.    Once we brought him back, we did start winning rounds again.   Was probably our best forward in the Turco series when he was almost done.    We couldn't win a round with the peak Sedin era teams often ... despite having quite the team struggled in the post season aside from 2011.   Nazzy's teams actually had a lot of grit on them - that was Cloutier and not having a proper second line more than anything.   The Sedins just weren't that affective early on come the post season.   The rule changes for sure helped a lot of skilled guys back then.   And trial by fire pre lockout, for sure helped the Sedins too...they had thick skin.  

 

As for Vegas it was awfully apparent in the bubble our team wasn't gritty enough to go toe to toe with a team like that.   Curiously, they actually got smaller and lost some depth adding Eichel.   Guess they decided they needed more balance.   No Tuch, no Patches, two guys who were awfully difficult to handle.    Will see how they do against Dallas - another well balanced deep team.    I'd love to have either of their rosters right now instead too... which is hard to say because i'd love to see what Tochett can do with this club and what EP and QHs, Miller and co can manage in the post season.   Our team needs playoff reps right away.  

Edited May 18, 2023 by IBatch

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I hear you.   It seemed like since 1989, and we almost beat CAL with Rookie Linden, unless we had him on our team, we weren't getting through one round of hockey.    Once we brought him back, we did start winning rounds again.   Was probably our best forward in the Turco series when he was almost done.    We couldn't win a round with the peak Sedin era teams often ... despite having quite the team struggled in the post season aside from 2011.   Nazzy's teams actually had a lot of grit on them - that was Cloutier and not having a proper second line more than anything.   The Sedins just weren't that affective early on come the post season.   The rule changes for sure helped a lot of skilled guys back then.   And trial by fire pre lockout, for sure helped the Sedins too...they had thick skin.  

 

As for Vegas it was awfully apparent in the bubble our team wasn't gritty enough to go toe to toe with a team like that.   Curiously, they actually got smaller and lost some depth adding Eichel.   Guess they decided they needed more balance.   No Tuch, no Patches, two guys who were awfully difficult to handle.    Will see how they do against Dallas - another well balanced deep team.    I'd love to have either of their rosters right now instead too... which is hard to say because i'd love to see what Tochett can do with this club and what EP and QHs, Miller and co can manage in the post season.   Our team needs playoff reps right away.  

Dallas has done really old guys who are keys to their success. Shows why we kept Miller. 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Dallas has done really old guys who are keys to their success. Shows why we kept Miller. 

It's important to have veterans for sure.   Especially come post-season.   I have zero issue with Miller on our team.   Like the guy, and love how winning is his main priority.  

[DrJockitch]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Dallas has done really old guys who are keys to their success. Shows why we kept Miller. 

Miller has really been the secret to our success. 

[Alflives]

Just now, DrJockitch said:

Miller has really been the secret to our success. 

Miller is an awesome player. The old Dallas guys, who are definitely helping their club, show why teams need the harder nosed, elite skilled, older players. 

Benning was (still is) the key to our success. 

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

Bruce was a good person too but that's irrelevant to being a good post season coach. Was Mike Babcock a good person?  No, but he won a cup with Detroit.  Rick never had much to work with in Arizona but with the Canucks he has players that can implement his system and that's what matters. We didn't hire Tocchet to be a nice guy we got him because this team needed structure.  

And Tochett is nothing like Babcock.   Who was so arrogant, used to talk about himself in the third person.   Tochett is a player/teaching coach.   That's how he operates.  Open door policy - and an effective communicator/motivator.   PIT players loved him, and so far aces with our guys, which is pretty cool given the tough circumstance he had coming in with Bruce.    He's got high standards, and has correctly quickly identified something that's bugged me for years - guys coming in not ready to play.    He also picked awesome assistant coaches that the players are loving to learn from.   At first I thought we were getting an all business, hardass, but that's not really what Tochett is all about at all.   He's trying to show the players what it takes to win a cup.   Same with Foote and Gonchar.   Not sure we could ask for more really, as fans anyways.