Reclamation Trade Targets - Dvorak or Johansen

[qwijibo]

3 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

Prefer to go for Dvorak, lower cost and wouldn't be such an albatross-looking contract if we had to put him on the 3rd line at his price point.

That’s why Montreal keeps him over the 2 guys offered.  He’s a great 3C who’s a little overpaid.  Lets them keep Evans as their 4C. Providing they avoid injuries like they had last year they have solid depth down the middle.  Moving him for a winger makes no sense.  

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

That’s why Montreal keeps him over the 2 guys offered.  He’s a great 3C who’s a little overpaid.  Lets them keep Evans as their 4C. Providing they avoid injuries like they had last year they have solid depth down the middle.  Moving him for a winger makes no sense.  

Habs would love to dump Dvorak. Boeser for Dvorak + 2nd and Habs jump all over that. 

[Coconuts]

Dvorak? You think folks would have learned their lesson about former Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes by now 

[DrJockitch]

If the cap goes up 2M I would do the Ryan Johansen deal clean, no retention. 
Moving for a home town guy at a premium position with size. 
Moves money off the wing. Good faceoff guy. Doesn’t need to be primary scorer here. 
Contract term is same, 2 years so not worried that he is 30. 

[mll]

2 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Yeah not great, but they are retooling to get younger.

 

Bearing in mind that Glass (35 pts, age 24), Novak (43 pts, age 26) and Sissons (30 pts, age 29) all out scored Johansen (28 pts, age 30) playing center, then trading RyJo for Boeser (55 pts, age 26) makes sense for NSH. Boeser is 4 years younger than RyJo and provides way more offensive upside.

 

Their forward lineup becomes:

 

Forsberg Novak Boeser

Duchene Glass Evangelista

Trenin Sissons Tomasino

Asplund McCarron Sherwood

(Smith)

Speed was the 1st thing Trotz said he wanted to add.  Boeser doesn't have speed.  

 

Don't think Nashville is looking to box out their young players either when Trotz talks of step back to take a step forward.  He also talks about veterans needing to re-invent themselves and take on new roles as their young players take over their roles.  

 

Tomasino is not a 3rd line grinder but someone they think will be a top-6 F.  This would be repeating the Tolvanen debacle.  You are forgetting Pärssinen - the player that Trotz says has impressed him the most (even joked that he asked him how come he wasn't a 1st rounder).   

 

McCarron is not a NHL regular.  They seem better off retaining Johansen even if he plays C4.  He's also reliable defensively and can move up and down the lineup and play C while Boeser will only take a spot away from a young player they are trying to develop and it's not like he can be effective in the bottom-6.  

 

They are already retaining on Eckholm and might not be making the playoffs next year.  Not sure they want to retain on a 2nd contract that would then leave them only 1 retention spot left.  

 

Trotz also says he hopes to take advantage of cap strapped teams to gain additional assets.  Nashville doesn't have to move Johansen and this deal seems to help Vancouver mostly by moving a winger for a C while using up a retention spot for Nashville.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by mll

[Elias Pettersson]

Tocchet loves Dvorak.  I could see a trade happening with Montreal...

 

Who better than the man who coached Christian Dvorak for four years to tell us what the Canadiens’ new centre is all about?

Former Arizona Coyotes head coach Rick Tocchet, whose contract with the team was not renewed this summer, is well-suited to describe what kind of player Dvorak has become since joining the NHL. So, after the Canadiens acquired him on Sept. 4, we asked him to detail the different aspects of the 25-year-old’s play.

“He’s a really good 200-foot player, he plays his own end very well,” Tocchet said. “When he’s at his best, he scores goals around the net. If you watch a lot of his goals, it’s 15 feet out. He’s got that quick release, but he also gets a lot of rebounds and tip goals too. Those are important goals. Those are hard to find, those type of players that are willing to go into the paint, into the middle of the ice a lot.”

This echoes what Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin said about Dvorak a few days after acquiring him. He described him as a responsible two-way centre, whose honest style of play might not “wow you,” but will see him commit to the finer details of the game.

[BigTramFan]

47 minutes ago, mll said:

Speed was the 1st thing Trotz said he wanted to add.  Boeser doesn't have speed.  

 

Don't think Nashville is looking to box out their young players either when Trotz talks of step back to take a step forward.  He also talks about veterans needing to re-invent themselves and take on new roles as their young players take over their roles.  

 

Tomasino is not a 3rd line grinder but someone they think will be a top-6 F.  This would be repeating the Tolvanen debacle.  You are forgetting Pärssinen - the player that Trotz says has impressed him the most (even joked that he asked him how come he wasn't a 1st rounder).   

 

McCarron is not a NHL regular.  They seem better off retaining Johansen even if he plays C4.  He's also reliable defensively and can move up and down the lineup and play C while Boeser will only take a spot away from a young player they are trying to develop and it's not like he can be effective in the bottom-6.  

 

They are already retaining on Eckholm and might not be making the playoffs next year.  Not sure they want to retain on a 2nd contract that would then leave them only 1 retention spot left.  

 

Trotz also says he hopes to take advantage of cap strapped teams to gain additional assets.  Nashville doesn't have to move Johansen and this deal seems to help Vancouver mostly by moving a winger for a C while using up a retention spot for Nashville.

 

Yeah I really don't think Nashville would make the trade anyway, but I don't think it's unrealistic. You speak about Boeser as if he is some old guy blocking the path of young players. He's 26 years old and on a down-season he would have been the 3rd highest scorer on that NSH team.

 

Remember Nashville resigned Forsberg (now 28) a year ago to an 8 year contract, and he will be blocking young players too. However, I think their mgmt are aware that they need to find a balance between young players and players in their prime.

 

Regarding Tomasino. You don't need to be a grinder to play on the 3rd line. He might be a top 6 player one day but he is nowhere near that right now. 3rd line is a good place to develop. Didn't forget Parssinen, just that he is not waiver eligible, so he doesn't need to be on the roster either.

 

If NSH made the trade that was originally proposed, then they still have the same amount of cap available to take on additional assets from cap strapped teams, so I'm not sure why you mention that.

[BigTramFan]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Tocchet loves Dvorak.  I could see a trade happening with Montreal...

 

Who better than the man who coached Christian Dvorak for four years to tell us what the Canadiens’ new centre is all about?

Former Arizona Coyotes head coach Rick Tocchet, whose contract with the team was not renewed this summer, is well-suited to describe what kind of player Dvorak has become since joining the NHL. So, after the Canadiens acquired him on Sept. 4, we asked him to detail the different aspects of the 25-year-old’s play.

“He’s a really good 200-foot player, he plays his own end very well,” Tocchet said. “When he’s at his best, he scores goals around the net. If you watch a lot of his goals, it’s 15 feet out. He’s got that quick release, but he also gets a lot of rebounds and tip goals too. Those are important goals. Those are hard to find, those type of players that are willing to go into the paint, into the middle of the ice a lot.”

This echoes what Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin said about Dvorak a few days after acquiring him. He described him as a responsible two-way centre, whose honest style of play might not “wow you,” but will see him commit to the finer details of the game.

What would the price be?

[qwijibo]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Tocchet loves Dvorak.  I could see a trade happening with Montreal...

 

Who better than the man who coached Christian Dvorak for four years to tell us what the Canadiens’ new centre is all about?

Former Arizona Coyotes head coach Rick Tocchet, whose contract with the team was not renewed this summer, is well-suited to describe what kind of player Dvorak has become since joining the NHL. So, after the Canadiens acquired him on Sept. 4, we asked him to detail the different aspects of the 25-year-old’s play.

“He’s a really good 200-foot player, he plays his own end very well,” Tocchet said. “When he’s at his best, he scores goals around the net. If you watch a lot of his goals, it’s 15 feet out. He’s got that quick release, but he also gets a lot of rebounds and tip goals too. Those are important goals. Those are hard to find, those type of players that are willing to go into the paint, into the middle of the ice a lot.”

This echoes what Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin said about Dvorak a few days after acquiring him. He described him as a responsible two-way centre, whose honest style of play might not “wow you,” but will see him commit to the finer details of the game.

The problem 

is neither Boeser nor Garland are a fit for what Montréal would be looking for 

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

What would the price be?

We could give them Beauvillier.  Contracts are almost the same and Montreal frees up the cap space one year earlier as Dvorak has 2 years left.  We could also throw in one of our 4th round picks...

Edited May 27, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

The problem 

is neither Boeser nor Garland are a fit for what Montréal would be looking for 

What about Beauvillier?  Isn't he French?

Edited May 27, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Nuxfanabroad]

Johansen was such a promising prospect, back in the day..now it appears he's circling the bowl.

[qwijibo]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

What about Beauvillier?

His cap is fine but I just don’t see how moving a reliable 3C for a redundant middle 6 (at best) undersized winger would hold any appeal for them 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, qwijibo said:

His cap is fine but I just don’t see how moving a reliable 3C for a redundant middle 6 (at best) undersized winger would hold any appeal for them 

Aren't they rebuilding?  Maybe they want a younger prospect as well.  Shedding the cap for 2024 would help them alot, especially if they want to weaponize their cap space.  Not sure why they would want to keep Dvorak around long term.  Apparently, they also want to move out Josh Anderson and Joel Edmundson...

[qwijibo]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Aren't they rebuilding?  Maybe they want a younger prospect as well.  Shedding the cap for 2024 would help them alot, especially if they want to weaponize their cap space.  Not sure why they would want to keep Dvorak around long term.  Apparently, they also want to move out Josh Anderson and Joel Edmundson...

Dvorak is signed for 2 years.  Hardly “long term”.  They were forced to use 10 centres last season due to injuries.  Having Dvorak is a safety net while their young C prospects develop. You can always shift a C to the wings. It’s a lot harder to ho the other way.  As their roster stands right now their starting C depth is Suzuki, Dach, Dvorak and Evans.  They have some guys that can fill in at C but I think they prefer to stay strong up the middle. They’ll likely choose a C with the 5th OA pick but there’s no guarantee that player will be ready to play C in the NHL in the next couple years.  I don’t think they want to rush kids like Beck
 

Also, Hughes is on record as saying they like Anderson and aren’t interested in moving him.  They reportedly turned down an offer of a 1st for him last season.  Edmundson is a free agent after this year and with the way their young D prospects stepped up last season I’m sure they’ll look to move him if possible.  

Edited May 27, 2023 by qwijibo

[bh90]

5 hours ago, qwijibo said:

What’s in it for Nashville? Do you think they’d be substantially happier paying Boeser $8m a year than Johansen? 

Yes potentially. Johansen is pretty much a finished product, doubt he will get much better. At least with Boeser he is still only 26 and there's potential there for him to become a consistent 30-40 goal scorer. Something I think Nashville needs as Forsberg is their only sniper.

 

I also think it's important to remember is similar to how we say Myers, OEL, Boeser, Garland etc have no value or negative value due to their contracts and we have to pay to get rid of them, well how much value does Tyan Johansen have with his 8 mil / year contract?

 

Taking a gamble on a younger winger who can still improve (Boeser) and acquiring a prospect (Woo, Jurmo, Bains, Karlsson, Lockhard or similar) in the process may be enticing to the Preds.

[mll]

1 hour ago, BigTramFan said:

Yeah I really don't think Nashville would make the trade anyway, but I don't think it's unrealistic. You speak about Boeser as if he is some old guy blocking the path of young players. He's 26 years old and on a down-season he would have been the 3rd highest scorer on that NSH team.

 

Remember Nashville resigned Forsberg (now 28) a year ago to an 8 year contract, and he will be blocking young players too. However, I think their mgmt are aware that they need to find a balance between young players and players in their prime.

 

Regarding Tomasino. You don't need to be a grinder to play on the 3rd line. He might be a top 6 player one day but he is nowhere near that right now. 3rd line is a good place to develop. Didn't forget Parssinen, just that he is not waiver eligible, so he doesn't need to be on the roster either.

 

If NSH made the trade that was originally proposed, then they still have the same amount of cap available to take on additional assets from cap strapped teams, so I'm not sure why you mention that.

Can't really look at scoring that way - systems/linemates etc influence scoring.  If Boeser had spent all season on Nashville would he have had that same production.  

 

They do want a balance between veterans and youth and don't want to go all youth.  If they add Boeser to the Forsberg line it closes a spot while if they only have Forsberg there's a spot open.   Boeser has 2 years to his deal too when they still have Forsberg and Duchene - that's 3 winger spots taken out of 4 for the next 2 years with waivers also coming into play for some of their younger players.   

 

Trotz says he wants speed.  He also says step back to take a step forward.  Why invest in Boeser when he doesn't bring the speed they want going forward.  If they are willing to miss the playoffs then use the opportunity to develop someone that's going to fit how they want to play and be with them long term.  

 

Sissons is a shutdown line.  They once explained that it doesn't make much sense to put players in roles that they weren't being developed for.  He plays on a scoring line in Milwaukee why then ask him to change his game to play on a grinding line in the NHL.  They identified it as an issue and then went on to do exactly that to Tolvanen - now lost him to waivers and he's doing rather well in Seattle.  Would think that the Tolvanen situation is something they'll be more mindful of going forward.  

 

With them likely going with young/inexperienced C1/C2, Johansen provides a backup plan shall either struggle.  They also don't have to use up a retention spot.

 

They are helping Vancouver address an area of need while not addressing theirs + giving up a retention spot.  Not sure that's going to come for free. 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by mll

[qwijibo]

4 minutes ago, bh90 said:

Yes potentially. Johansen is pretty much a finished product, doubt he will get much better. At least with Boeser he is still only 26 and there's potential there for him to become a consistent 30-40 goal scorer. Something I think Nashville needs as Forsberg is their only sniper.

 

I also think it's important to remember is similar to how we say Myers, OEL, Boeser, Garland etc have no value or negative value due to their contracts and we have to pay to get rid of them, well how much value does Tyan Johansen have with his 8 mil / year contract?

 

Taking a gamble on a younger winger who can still improve (Boeser) and acquiring a prospect (Woo, Jurmo, Bains, Karlsson, Lockhard or similar) in the process may be enticing to the Preds.

As you said Boeser is 26.  I would t say there’s a lot of runway left for him developing.  He scored 18 this year.  Holding out hope he’ll be a consistent 30-40 goal scorer seems pretty unlikely.  Especially when you take his skating into consideration.  
 

Neither player is worth $8m a year but of the two I’d take a rugged C who can contribute away from the puck over the streaky winger 

[bh90]

2 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

As you said Boeser is 26.  I would t say there’s a lot of runway left for him developing.  He scored 18 this year.  Holding out hope he’ll be a consistent 30-40 goal scorer seems pretty unlikely.  Especially when you take his skating into consideration.  
 

Neither player is worth $8m a year but of the two I’d take a rugged C who can contribute away from the puck over the streaky winger 

Yup so would I, take Johansen over Boeser. But that's why I suggest Boeser+. So I'm hoping Nashville sees value in Boeser+. Boeser is he bounces back could also bring in some assets in 2 years at TDL if they decide not to resign him.

 

Also I know Trotz mentioned to play fast but in many of his commentary over the years he has stated that fast doesn't mean just skating but, being able to play fast with pace. We can also debate that Boeser is a better skate than Johansen. 

[qwijibo]

5 minutes ago, bh90 said:

Yup so would I, take Johansen over Boeser. But that's why I suggest Boeser+. So I'm hoping Nashville sees value in Boeser+. Boeser is he bounces back could also bring in some assets in 2 years at TDL if they decide not to resign him.

 

Also I know Trotz mentioned to play fast but in many of his commentary over the years he has stated that fast doesn't mean just skating but, being able to play fast with pace. We can also debate that Boeser is a better skate than Johansen. 

You suggested the plus be a fringe prospect.  Do you really think Nashville does the trade to get a fringe prospect?