Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, kloubek said:

Ruling out 12-13 due to the lockout, his point totals increased every year he was with Boston, with 37, 47, and 63 points. In an attempt to be fair, I noticed that his ppg seemed out of whack, and it translates to 60.6 points per 100 games, 58 points p 100 games, and 86.6pp 100. So yes, there was a ppg reduction on his 2nd year, but hardly a pattern that set a precedent of regression, and certainly nothing significant.

 

Now, if you're going back further, he did clearly played his best with Dallas. But I would say that after 3 years in Boston, Benning probably HOPED he would return to Dallas form, but had to realize that was unlikely. If he just carried on the average of his play with Boston, all would have been pretty good with perhaps a bit of overpayment, but that tends to be common with signing UFAs - especially when you aren't a prime destination. I still maintain that as he realized this was his last big contract,the moment he signed it, he decided it wasn't necessary to exert himself any longer. Aside from a career-altering injury (which didn't occur) it's really the only logical explanation. Nobody regresses that hard in one offseason unless they are literally making it happen.

Well said.

Not only that but if you are signed to play with a certain line, you should probably have more than 31% of your TOI with that line and have similar zone starts. But fact of the matter is LE was used defensively. Everything in his advanced analytics points to defensive deployment with moderate offensive utilization.

[MaxVerstappen33]

23 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Wih all these skills you'd think he'd be easy to trade, but no one wants him. The real BB is not the BB that some make him out to be

I swear the cacophony that Canucks fans manage to make around our players and management gets around the league and rubs off on everyone.

 

Boeser or Garlund isn't tradeable because of canucks fans. Benning or Green doesn't get another job bc of Canucks fans. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

30 minutes ago, DSVII said:

But I've been told to not get stuck into the past  you want me to go further back?

Blame the Leafs for blocking Vancouver's bid for a franchise earlier 

[Kevin Biestra]

7 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Ruling out 12-13 due to the lockout, his point totals increased every year he was with Boston, with 37, 47, and 63 points. In an attempt to be fair, I noticed that his ppg seemed out of whack, and it translates to 60.6 points per 100 games, 58 points p 100 games, and 86.6pp 100. So yes, there was a ppg reduction on his 2nd year, but hardly a pattern that set a precedent of regression, and certainly nothing significant.

 

Now, if you're going back further, he did clearly played his best with Dallas. But I would say that after 3 years in Boston, Benning probably HOPED he would return to Dallas form, but had to realize that was unlikely. If he just carried on the average of his play with Boston, all would have been pretty good with perhaps a bit of overpayment, but that tends to be common with signing UFAs - especially when you aren't a prime destination. I still maintain that as he realized this was his last big contract,the moment he signed it, he decided it wasn't necessary to exert himself any longer. Aside from a career-altering injury (which didn't occur) it's really the only logical explanation. Nobody regresses that hard in one offseason unless they are literally making it happen.

 

Loui Eriksson's three years in Boston...

 

Year 1 - 10 goals in 61 games (Basil McRae numbers)

Year 2 - 22 goals in 81 games (Mason Raymond numbers)

Year 3 - 30 goals in 82 games (contract year - awesome, hope he doesn't decline from this now that he's 30 or go back to where he was a year or two ago)

 

His final year in Dallas before going to Boston (after which Dallas traded him) - 12 goals in 48 games (20 goal pace for 82, Mason Raymond numbers)

 

There were plenty of signs to not expect Loui to average even 20 goals during his time in Vancouver.  The deal was the combination of two roulette spins: (a) Loui in his age 30 contract year is the new Loui trajectory despite the last five years as a whole, and (b) well he played for Sweden in the Olympics and could gel with and revitalize the Sedins.

[canucklehead44]

Benning also left Allvin in a terrible position when you look at the picks leading up to and including his first draft. When you consider Benning took over a team that was a recent contender Vs Allvin taking over a team that had been one of the worst over the last stretch of years that is unacceptable 

 

2012 - 1st, 2nd

2013 - 1st (9th overall), 1st

2014 - 1st (6th overall), 1sr, 2nd

 

Vs

 

2020 - no top two rounds 

2021 - 2nd

2022 - 1st (15th overall)

 

Benning also had Garrison, Bieksa who he moved for 2nds. He fumbled moving Hamhuis. Hansen and Burrows also got pretty good return.

 

Allvin had Hamonic who he moved for a 3rd, Tyler Motte for a 4th, and Horvat. 
 

I would have much rather taken over the team when Benning got it. Clear four year rebuild. Keep the Sedins as mentors, stockpile picks, and weaponize cap space.

 

Allvin didn’t have that luxury. Hughes and EP are close to entering their primes, there are some horrible un-moveable contracts in the books, and the pipeline was empty. I don’t think a rebuild when Allvin took over would have made sense especially after nearly a decade of pain 

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

See, that's the thing about this fanbase... they just keep going back to this Benning period, over and over. All the while ignoring (over and over Gillis' mistakes, particularly drafting. The guy only grabbed two players in the first round, and busted the rest of them, except Hutton. That's awful for 6 years of work.

 

This fanbase is absolutely stuck in the past with almost no ability to see things in the present or in the future.

Heh Benning is no Nostradamus either with 15 million in cap space allocated to the three Stooges.  OEL, Myers and Poolman.

[AnthonyG]

44 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I know you're typing up your magnum opus response, but i'll chime in quickly here and you can add it to your chapters  

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/junior-hockey/vancouver-giants-hire-former-vancouver-canucks-trainer-mike-burnstein

 

You can thank your buddy boy Benning for that when he fired Mike Burnstein and replaced him with Celebrini. Again, a GM's job isn't all about drafting, but ensuring all other aspects of the organization are running smoothly. His decision to fire Burnstein in 2015 and revamp the athletic training and performance program cost us years of prime Tanev.

 

 

The below is cap dollars lost to injury per season, blue bar being league average ranges.

 

 

Oh thats cute, you missed the first couple “full time seasons” of Tanev

Movin the goal posts I see.

 

oh hey and by the way Burnie did great for Salo 

 

 

[DSVII]

19 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Ruling out 12-13 due to the lockout, his point totals increased every year he was with Boston, with 37, 47, and 63 points. In an attempt to be fair, I noticed that his ppg seemed out of whack, and it translates to 60.6 points per 100 games, 58 points p 100 games, and 86.6pp 100. So yes, there was a ppg reduction on his 2nd year, but hardly a pattern that set a precedent of regression, and certainly nothing significant.

 

Now, if you're going back further, he did clearly played his best with Dallas. But I would say that after 3 years in Boston, Benning probably HOPED he would return to Dallas form, but had to realize that was unlikely. If he just carried on the average of his play with Boston, all would have been pretty good with perhaps a bit of overpayment, but that tends to be common with signing UFAs - especially when you aren't a prime destination. I still maintain that as he realized this was his last big contract,the moment he signed it, he decided it wasn't necessary to exert himself any longer. Aside from a career-altering injury (which didn't occur) it's really the only logical explanation. Nobody regresses that hard in one offseason unless they are literally making it happen.

I would look at his Shooting% in Boston for another reason in his regression.  It was not sustainable.

[canucklehead44]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Loui Eriksson's three years in Boston...

 

Year 1 - 10 goals in 61 games (Basil McRae numbers)

Year 2 - 22 goals in 81 games (Mason Raymond numbers)

Year 3 - 30 goals in 82 games (contract year - awesome, hope he doesn't decline from this now that he's 30 or go back to where he was a year or two ago)

 

His final year in Dallas before going to Boston (after which Dallas traded him) - 12 goals in 48 games (20 goal pace for 82, Mason Raymond numbers)

 

There were plenty of signs to not expect Loui to average even 20 goals during his time in Vancouver.  The deal was the combination of two roulette spins: (a) Loui in his age 30 contract year is the new Loui trajectory despite the last five years as a whole, and (b) well he played for Sweden in the Olympics and could gel with and revitalize the Sedins.

One thing some analysts pointed out when we signed Eriksson was his ability to get points off the PP from point shots. Boston was 1st in shots from the point, Vancovuer last. 
 

Age and speed were also concerns.

 

The Eriksson deal was bad at the time but was far worse than it should have been. I kind of give Benning a pass for that mistake.

 

Gudbranson was far worse. There was a leaked scouting list that had DeBrincat in the first round. Gudbranson couldn’t skate and he handled the puck like a grenade - awful pro scouting 

 

[AnthonyG]

6 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Hughes and EP are close to entering their primes

 

There you go. You’re finally catching on.

you are panicked why? The trials and tribulations of youth. You’re judging a product that isnt even at its best hockey yet.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

One thing some analysts pointed out when we signed Eriksson was his ability to get points off the PP from point shots. Boston was 1st in shots from the point, Vancovuer last. 
 

Age and speed were also concerns.

 

The Eriksson deal was bad at the time but was far worse than it should have been. I kind of give Benning a pass for that mistake.

 

Gudbranson was far worse. There was a leaked scouting list that had DeBrincat in the first round. Gudbranson couldn’t skate and he handled the puck like a grenade - awful pro scouting 

 

Bryan Campbell was carrying his fat ass in Florida.  Ace scout Benning couldn't see that.

 

Maybe Hughes can do the same for Myers so we can sucker a Benning clone into trading for him.

Edited June 12, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

See, that's the thing about this fanbase... they just keep going back to this Benning period, over and over. All the while ignoring (over and over Gillis' mistakes, particularly drafting. The guy only grabbed two players in the first round, and busted the rest of them, except Hutton. That's awful for 6 years of work.

 

This fanbase is absolutely stuck in the past with almost no ability to see things in the present or in the future.

Meh, both were turds but Benning is just a few years removed from working here.  He's the fresher turd so people tend to remember that stench more.

[canucklehead44]

20 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

There you go. You’re finally catching on.

you are panicked why? The trials and tribulations of youth. You’re judging a product that isnt even at its best hockey yet.

No I am judging the countless horrible trades and signings, bad contracts, net negative accumulation of picks. No 1st round picks and just one 2nd round pick over two draft years.

 

Benning almost redeemed himself. All he had to do was resign Tanev & Toffoli. Instead he resigned Virtanen (who was awful in the bubble run), acquired Schmidt (who was a terrible fit with Hughes and Edler on the left side), and paid a struggling backup in Holtby 4.3 million. 

Then things got worse with the OEL trade. To trade a top 10 pick and 2nd rounder to get saddle with one of the worst contracts in the league is pure insanity

 

 

 

 

 

[AnthonyG]

33 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Benning also left Allvin in a terrible position when you look at the picks leading up to and including his first draft. When you consider Benning took over a team that was a recent contender Vs Allvin taking over a team that had been one of the worst over the last stretch of years that is unacceptable 

 

2012 - 1st, 2nd

2013 - 1st (9th overall), 1st

2014 - 1st (6th overall), 1sr, 2nd

 

Vs

 

2020 - no top two rounds 

2021 - 2nd

2022 - 1st (15th overall)

 

Benning also had Garrison, Bieksa who he moved for 2nds. He fumbled moving Hamhuis. Hansen and Burrows also got pretty good return.

 

Allvin had Hamonic who he moved for a 3rd, Tyler Motte for a 4th, and Horvat. 
 

I would have much rather taken over the team when Benning got it. Clear four year rebuild. Keep the Sedins as mentors, stockpile picks, and weaponize cap space.

 

Allvin didn’t have that luxury. Hughes and EP are close to entering their primes, there are some horrible un-moveable contracts in the books, and the pipeline was empty. I don’t think a rebuild when Allvin took over would have made sense especially after nearly a decade of pain 

 

 

2005 - Bourdon RIP - 18 years between drafting a dman in the 1st round. Its no wonder why JB selected OJ when Brian Allen was the last selected dman. WE NEEDED ONE

2006 - Grabner which led to nothing

2007 - 1st round bust, 2nd round bust

2008 - Hodgson....bust, oh wait no that became Kassian..which became a drunk driver and a waste

2009 - 1st round bust, 2nd round bust 

2010 - no 1st, no 2nd, no 3rd

2011 - 1st round bust, no 2nd

2012 - 1st round Bust, 2nd round bust

2013 - Horvat, Sh*tkaruk (bust), no 2nd

2014 - Virtanen (allegedly a FA pick ask @DSVII) Also mismanaged by Green, McCann was JBs acquisition not Gillis's trade or even his own player that was traded away, that was a Burke guy

 

vs

2014 - Demko

2015 - Boeser

2017 - EP

2018 - Hughes

2019+ - Developing

2020 = JT Miller

2021 - high 2nd round pick

2022 - 1st round pick

 

You sure you wish you took over when Benning got the job??? 

JB made PA's job a whoooooooooooole lot easier.

elite 1C

elite pmd

borderline elite goalie - needs a bit more consistency starting the season on time

another very promising goalie in Silovs

Thats a pretty foolish statement to make. Benning handed PA and JR a lot. Benning was given almost nothing.

 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

2005 - Bourdon RIP - 18 years between drafting a dman in the 1st round. Its no wonder why JB selected OJ when Brian Allen was the last selected dman. WE NEEDED ONE

2006 - Grabner which led to nothing

2007 - 1st round bust, 2nd round bust

2008 - Hodgson....bust, oh wait no that became Kassian..which became a drunk driver and a waste

2009 - 1st round bust, 2nd round bust 

2010 - no 1st, no 2nd, no 3rd

2011 - 1st round bust, no 2nd

2012 - 1st round Bust, 2nd round bust

2013 - Horvat, Sh*tkaruk (bust), no 2nd

2014 - Virtanen (allegedly a FA pick ask @DSVII) Also mismanaged by Green, McCann was JBs acquisition not Gillis's trade or even his own player that was traded away, that was a Burke guy

 

vs

2014 - Demko

2015 - Boeser

2017 - EP

2018 - Hughes

2019+ - Developing

2020 = JT Miller

2021 - high 2nd round pick

2022 - 1st round pick

 

You sure you wish you took over when Benning got the job??? 

JB made PA's job a whoooooooooooole lot easier.

elite 1C

elite pmd

borderline elite goalie - needs a bit more consistency starting the season on time

another very promising goalie in Silovs

Thats a pretty foolish statement to make. Benning handed PA and JR a lot. Benning was given almost nothing.

 

 

Gillis was given the direction to win. And he did that. 

Benning was given the direction to compete while rebuilding the core. He did that

 

The difference is Gillis was was better at what he was directed to do than Benning was with his. 

[AnthonyG]

16 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

No I am judging the countless horrible trades and signings, bad contracts, net negative accumulation of picks. No 1st round picks and just one 2nd round pick over two draft years.

 

Benning almost redeemed himself. All he had to do was resign Tanev & Toffoli. Instead he resigned Virtanen (who was awful in the bubble run), acquired Schmidt (who was a terrible fit with Hughes and Edler on the left side), and paid a struggling backup in Holtby 4.3 million. 

Then things got worse with the OEL trade. To trade a top 10 pick and 2nd rounder to get saddle with one of the worst contracts in the league is pure insanity

 

 

 

 

 

DUDE we had to save cap. The cap flattened, a 4-8mil increase came to a dead halt and all GMs were standing pat with uncertainty. JB had to cut the losses and not reinvest in a poor cap choice, Schmidt was far better in every statistical category, he joined a team, which they all talk about it takes about a year sometimes 2, to get accustomed to pairs/systems and divisional opponents.

Virtanen was ENTIRELY MISHANDLED

18g 18a in 13:05TOI no PP1 time and he then got demoted to 12:15min TOI and 39% oZS compared to 55% the prior.... 16% drop in ozone deployment?!?!?! Its NO WONDER HE STRUGGLED. He always had more takeaways than giveaways every season, he rarely got scored on, threw tons of hits and gets put further and further away from the offensive zone.... WHAT?!??! His career ATOI is 12:45!!!!!! Under 50% oZS!!! 11 minutes ATOI in the playoffs and 7oiGF and 4oiGA I THINK HE WAS ACTUALLY A POSITIVE FACTOR ON THE ICE IN THE PLAYOFFS. Our goalies had a .962sv% when he was on the ice at 5v5

Edited June 12, 2023 by AnthonyG

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

I know you're typing up your magnum opus response, but i'll chime in quickly here and you can add it to your chapters  

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/junior-hockey/vancouver-giants-hire-former-vancouver-canucks-trainer-mike-burnstein

 

You can thank your buddy boy Benning for that when he fired Mike Burnstein and replaced him with Celebrini. Again, a GM's job isn't all about drafting, but ensuring all other aspects of the organization are running smoothly. His decision to fire Burnstein in 2015 and revamp the athletic training and performance program cost us years of prime Tanev.

 

 

The below is cap dollars lost to injury per season, blue bar being league average ranges.

 

 

So open gates, slew foots, knee on knees, blindside hits to the head, suicide passes that lead to devastating hits are all to blame on Celebrini?

Oh and Mumps is the fault of Celebrini too?

Canucks' Tanev thought he broke jaw prior to mumps diagnosis | theScore.com

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

2 hours ago, unknown33429 said:

 

I would rate drafting a lot higher. That was one thing he was pretty good at. 

 

Boeser (23), Petterson (5), Hughes (7),  Gaudette (149), McCann (24), Hoglander (40), Demko (36), Forsling (126)

 

The only terrible pick was Olli, especially with who the next selection was. He was terrible at asset management, and the Canucks' player development program leaves a lot to be desired.

 

A lot of those players exceeded expectation either prior to coming to the Canucks or shortly thereafter. Once they started to play for the Canucks, a lot of them stagnated. 

 

How do you have three consecutive Calder Trophy finalists (one winner) and end up with a team this poor? 

Given the fact we didn't make the playoffs 5/7 years Benning was in charge, you've named 9 draftees who have made the NHL - I would include Podkolzin in there.  So after 7 years, you only have nine NHL-level players?  Only seven if you take out Podkolzin/Hoglander, who are still not major leaguers.

[CanuckleHorse]

1 hour ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Meh, both were turds but Benning is just a few years removed from working here.  He's the fresher turd so people tend to remember that stench more.

I think the turd here is the guy typing from his mom and dad’s basement who thinks he knows better than people who got paid big time for the job they done.

Edited June 12, 2023 by CanuckleHorse

[Timråfan]

13 hours ago, Provost said:

His excuses about Brackett were pretty patently false.  Months before Brackett was let go and was still the Director of Amateur Scouting, Benning promoted Gear and publicly said it was so that he and Weisbrod could spend more time focussed on the day to day workings of the amateur scouting department.... you know, the department Brackett was 'supposedly' in charge of and probably the only department in the entire organization that was performing well.

I think not wanting your boss and his hatchet man to micromanage the day to day of your department, is slightly different than demanding final say in all the picks. 

Jimbo wasn't smart enough to avoid contradicting himself regularly, just not an honest character guy.  It came down to Brackett being a Linden guy (he was one of the guys Linden mentioned when he left), and not a Benning guy, and Benning flailing away at most parts of his job... so wanting to go do the thing he actually had experience at, watching amateur hockey.

(this link makes reference to it, it was in a radio hit)
https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/patrick-johnston-benning-believes-canucks-now-headed-in-right-direction-despite-lapses

Where were you and others when I said how bad Benning was long ago? 
I was almost alone in taking heat from the Benning fans plus they’d try to derail the discussion to be about Dahlen among others, not the bad man Benning.