[Buyout] Oliver Ekman-Larsson

[amplified0ne]

We need to find a way to trade with LA.  Maybe Matt Roy + prospect (Turcotte/Spence), for minimum return.  They can then go after their goalie and make room for Clarke

[HorvatToBaertschi]

19 hours ago, Master Mind said:

4 games is nothing, I'm basing my opinion on him from his time with Detroit.

If you're basing off his time in Detroit, you should be thrilled it only took a 1st and a 2nd and a 4th to get a legitimate 1D that plays the right side. He'll thrive playing 2nd pairing here. 

[Alflives]

6 hours ago, copperlynx said:

That means, the GM believes that in 2025, we can get a better D for ~3.5M of the actual cap hit + 4.7M of dead cap, than OEL at his 8.25M cap hit. A close call, but I tend to agree.

We already see Wolanen is better than OEL at league minimum. OEL is replaced by a league minimum contract. The rot is cut out. And goodness. 

[mll]

.

Edited June 20, 2023 by mll

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I think Miller will still get plenty of points well into his 30s.  They may all be Power Play points, but someone has to get them.

Me too.   Worrying about how he ages of course is grounded in reason.    Personally feel, he's skilled enough, and has a huge commitment to winning, and the ability to change his game when the time comes.   That is when he's bumped out of the top six and we need a solid 3C, who can win faceoffs,  PK and contribute in the scoreboard.   

 

In the meantime, despite all the bitching, moaning and whining, Debluvscanucks and others that have defended him from the start...well he wouldn't be too hard to trade (no thanks for me),  since becoming a Canuck he's 6th in league scoring for a center.   And he's played that position enough during his time with us to consider him a center.    Crosby is 10th.   He's one spot ahead of Zibanejad, who was always his best contract comp, and he signed for less!    EP is 15th ... and 42 points behind him.   PGP Miller is 10th, EP 11th,  Malkin bumps them down though.    Miller has also scored more goals than Crosby over that time frame.   

 

At the end of the day, we've got a first line center under contract, for likely the next 3 to 4 years, at a bargain cap hit.   The last 3-4 years on par maybe one or two, by then 8 will more then be the norm for a second line C, and the last year or two won't look great but possibly won't be terrible either.     No realistic poster had Miller at less than 8.   9 was less then market value considering what he just did (and two of his three years at the time, he got Hart votes,  Selke one year).  

 

JT Miller has become the poster boy for worrying about cap etc.   I sure hope EP follows suit for the team and takes a discount.    JT could have for sure gone for the money, and made a lot more money over the duration of his deal, signing for 8 in more US states.   Or signed in Dallas, Vegas, TB, Florida, Seattle making 6.5 and taking home a little more money as well.    If Horvat gets 8.5, he's for sure getting 9 plus IF he didn't sign last summer, he'd be by far the most sought out UFA this draft class.   Has more GWG's then Horvat over the same timeframe, and way, way more hits.   He's also 7th in overall ice time during his time as a Canuck for centers.    For those that consider him a LW...well it's even more impressive under that lens.   4th in scoring, almost 3rd, and first in ice time!   Three different coaches trusted him with massive minutes. 

 

IF JT Miller did the same thing on another team, we'd be willing to trade a ton to get in on the action.   And probably be talking about double digits to get him given he's ahead of Ovi over the same timeframe, and right there with everyone but Panarin as a LW.   Who by the way, has help boost Zibanejad's stats a heck of a lot more then Brock Boeser has, JT's most frequent linemate.    Before the Lotto line is brought up ... that was a massive failure Greens last year and Bruce didn't even give it a go at all.   Millers most frequent linemates his 99 point year was Pearson and Brock Boeser.   He drove every single line he was on (four different line combo's).    One could easily debate,  his  quality of linemates was a heck of a lot less than what he's actually achieved since becoming a Canuck, then almost anyone in the top ten, way way less then the guys ahead of him too.   

 

Edit:  Miller is about as close to what you get, or what you can hope for from a modern day power forward.     He's durable.   Produces.  And most importantly, wants to win a CUP and thinks he can, playing with the Canucks.   I've been waiting an awfully long time, to have someone on the team with some fire in his belly.   IF we traded him, it would have to be for boat load, and be lopsided in our favour.  

 

If he finishes his next deal with us, he's got a shot at catching Linden as our 4th all-time scorer.   A very good shot at passing Smyl.   11 years now is most of a career on one team. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by IBatch

[HorvatToBaertschi]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Me too.   Worrying about how he ages of course is grounded in reason.    Personally feel, he's skilled enough, and has a huge commitment to winning, and the ability to change his game when the time comes.   That is when he's bumped out of the top six and we need a solid 3C, who can win faceoffs,  PK and contribute in the scoreboard.   

 

In the meantime, despite all the bitching, moaning and whining, Debluvscanucks and others that have defended him from the start...well he wouldn't be too hard to trade (no thanks for me),  since becoming a Canuck he's 6th in league scoring for a center.   And he's played that position enough during his time with us to consider him a center.    Crosby is 10th.   He's one spot ahead of Zibanejad, who was always his best contract comp, and he signed for less!    EP is 15th ... and 42 points behind him.   PGP Miller is 10th, EP 11th,  Malkin bumps them down though.    Miller has also scored more goals than Crosby over that time frame.   

 

At the end of the day, we've got a first line center under contract, for likely the next 3 to 4 years, at a bargain cap hit.   The last 3-4 years on par maybe one or two, by then 8 will more then be the norm for a second line C, and the last year or two won't look great but possibly won't be terrible either.     No realistic poster had Miller at less than 8.   9 was less then market value considering what he just did (and two of his four years he got Hart votes,  Selke one year).  

 

JT Miller has become the poster boy for worrying about cap etc.   I sure hope EP follows suit for the team and takes a discount.    JT could have for sure gone for the money, and made a lot more money over the duration of his deal, signing for 8 in more US states.   Or signed in Dallas, Vegas, TB, Florida, Seattle making 6.5 and taking home a little more money as well.    If Horvat gets 8.5, he's for sure getting 9 plus IF he didn't sign last summer, he'd be by far the most sought out UFA this draft class.   Has more GWG's then Horvat over the same timeframe, and way, way more hits.   He's also 7th in overall ice time during his time as a Canuck for centers.    For those that consider him a LW...well it's even more impressive under that lens.   4th in scoring, almost 3rd. 

 

IF JT Miller did the same thing on another team, we'd be willing to trade a ton to get in on the action.   And probably be talking about double digits to get him given he's ahead of Ovi over the same timeframe, and right there with everyone but Panarin.   Who by the way, had helped boost Zibanejad's stats a heck of a lot more then Brock Boeser has, JT's most frequent linemate. 

Also incredibly difficult to measure the intangibles he brings. He's a true leader that plays an emotional game, which is his strong suit in the playoffs (when we make them which is never). People rally behind him and play for him, and he ramps up the intensity, and is never afraid of taking the pressure of answering the media and critics. The last year of his contract will probably be tough to digest, but today, we have an excellent 1C that plays in all situations and can play with pretty much anybody on his wing, since he's a play driver. We're pretty lucky he signed under market value, which imo was hovering around 9-9.5

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Also incredibly difficult to measure the intangibles he brings. He's a true leader that plays an emotional game, which is his strong suit in the playoffs (when we make them which is never). People rally behind him and play for him, and he ramps up the intensity, and is never afraid of taking the pressure of answering the media and critics. The last year of his contract will probably be tough to digest, but today, we have an excellent 1C that plays in all situations and can play with pretty much anybody on his wing, since he's a play driver. We're pretty lucky he signed under market value, which imo was hovering around 9-9.5

Thanks.   For sure he'd get that this off-season.   Likely we'd be seeing him with CHI too, which would be offensive. 

 

Edit:  It's very possible, that this year, we will see JT Miller pass all-time greats "Gus" Greg Adams,  Cliff Ronning,  Sundstrom,  Skirko ... and with 86 points pass Burrows.   In five years.    That's quite the accomplishment.   The following year ... Kesler, Horvat and Bertuzzi.   That's if he scores 150.    Seems reasonable.   Only injuries likely slows him down the next couple

seasons.   3 years .. well by then he should be ahead of Bure.   And also be close to top ten goals all-time.   

 

What i'm hoping more than anything, is we see him get some playoff games.    This team needs those reps more then anything, and could see him having some great games for us. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by IBatch

[Master Mind]

1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

If you're basing off his time in Detroit, you should be thrilled it only took a 1st and a 2nd and a 4th to get a legitimate 1D that plays the right side. He'll thrive playing 2nd pairing here. 

Legitimate 1D? 

 

There are very few of those in the NHL, and Hronek is definitely not one of them.

[DrJockitch]

14 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Me too.   Worrying about how he ages of course is grounded in reason.    Personally feel, he's skilled enough, and has a huge commitment to winning, and the ability to change his game when the time comes.   That is when he's bumped out of the top six and we need a solid 3C, who can win faceoffs,  PK and contribute in the scoreboard.   

 

In the meantime, despite all the bitching, moaning and whining, Debluvscanucks and others that have defended him from the start...well he wouldn't be too hard to trade (no thanks for me),  since becoming a Canuck he's 6th in league scoring for a center.   And he's played that position enough during his time with us to consider him a center.    Crosby is 10th.   He's one spot ahead of Zibanejad, who was always his best contract comp, and he signed for less!    EP is 15th ... and 42 points behind him.   PGP Miller is 10th, EP 11th,  Malkin bumps them down though.    Miller has also scored more goals than Crosby over that time frame.   

 

At the end of the day, we've got a first line center under contract, for likely the next 3 to 4 years, at a bargain cap hit.   The last 3-4 years on par maybe one or two, by then 8 will more then be the norm for a second line C, and the last year or two won't look great but possibly won't be terrible either.     No realistic poster had Miller at less than 8.   9 was less then market value considering what he just did (and two of his three years at the time, he got Hart votes,  Selke one year).  

 

JT Miller has become the poster boy for worrying about cap etc.   I sure hope EP follows suit for the team and takes a discount.    JT could have for sure gone for the money, and made a lot more money over the duration of his deal, signing for 8 in more US states.   Or signed in Dallas, Vegas, TB, Florida, Seattle making 6.5 and taking home a little more money as well.    If Horvat gets 8.5, he's for sure getting 9 plus IF he didn't sign last summer, he'd be by far the most sought out UFA this draft class.   Has more GWG's then Horvat over the same timeframe, and way, way more hits.   He's also 7th in overall ice time during his time as a Canuck for centers.    For those that consider him a LW...well it's even more impressive under that lens.   4th in scoring, almost 3rd, and first in ice time!   Three different coaches trusted him with massive minutes. 

 

IF JT Miller did the same thing on another team, we'd be willing to trade a ton to get in on the action.   And probably be talking about double digits to get him given he's ahead of Ovi over the same timeframe, and right there with everyone but Panarin as a LW.   Who by the way, has help boost Zibanejad's stats a heck of a lot more then Brock Boeser has, JT's most frequent linemate.    Before the Lotto line is brought up ... that was a massive failure Greens last year and Bruce didn't even give it a go at all.   Millers most frequent linemates his 99 point year was Pearson and Brock Boeser.   He drove every single line he was on (four different line combo's).    One could easily debate,  his  quality of linemates was a heck of a lot less than what he's actually achieved since becoming a Canuck, then almost anyone in the top ten, way way less then the guys ahead of him too.   

JTM is a very good player and he took less than he could have got on the open market.

JTM was terrible at the beginning of the year, looked out of shape and had to be moved off C because of how bad he played.

Players are often terrible right after signing a big deal but frequently recover.

We were a terrible team when we traded for JTM and have been a slightly less terrible team since, is that success?  

The hard question is whether we can be good during the period he is still a very good player.  We currently have 2 NHL Defenceman and Myers with one of them coming off of major injury that opted for conservative treatment.  We may be closer to tanking than playoffs, or as Canucks do; tanking to the middle of the pack.

Giving up young assets to get players that move you to a better non-playoff team is not progress in my eyes.  Will need to see what kind of crazy things get done this off-season before making any judgements on this offseason.  I think we are going to see some crazy, aggressive short-sighted moves.

We definitely seem to have better pro-scouting now and though I quibble about timing and the consistent slight overpay but we seem willing to do things Benning couldn't like walk away from mistakes.  We also seem to be targeting more players on the way up than Benning did, he usually wanted to pay players for what they did for other clubs, not what they can do for us.

Anyway my point before I started meandering is all sides of this can be true, he is a good player, a good competitor on a fair contract but has had some hiccups in fitness and professionalism, has not carried us anywhere further than mediocre and will probably be on way down by the time we are starting to get competitive.  His trade was symptomatic of issues with Benning not recognizing where we were as a franchise an issue that he then used to parlay into the OEL albatross.

 

 

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

Legitimate 1D? 

 

There are very few of those in the NHL, and Hronek is definitely not one of them.

Button says he is a legit top pairing RHD.   Suppose it depends on your own definition.   

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

Legitimate 1D? 

 

There are very few of those in the NHL, and Hronek is definitely not one of them.

Absolutely Hronek is a 1D. He was the best player on the Wings. Their team went seriously backwards without him. He doesn’t have to play that role for us. We are blessed with Hughes, who is a generational talent. And Yzerboy is the reason we gave both. 

[Master Mind]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Button says he is a legit top pairing RHD.   Suppose it depends on your own definition.   

I'll trust Yzerman's assessment over Button's.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

JTM is a very good player and he took less than he could have got on the open market.

JTM was terrible at the beginning of the year, looked out of shape and had to be moved off C because of how bad he played.

Players are often terrible right after signing a big deal but frequently recover.

We were a terrible team when we traded for JTM and have been a slightly less terrible team since, is that success?  

The hard question is whether we can be good during the period he is still a very good player.  We currently have 2 NHL Defenceman and Myers with one of them coming off of major injury that opted for conservative treatment.  We may be closer to tanking than playoffs, or as Canucks do; tanking to the middle of the pack.

Giving up young assets to get players that move you to a better non-playoff team is not progress in my eyes.  Will need to see what kind of crazy things get done this off-season before making any judgements on this offseason.  I think we are going to see some crazy, aggressive short-sighted moves.

We definitely seem to have better pro-scouting now and though I quibble about timing and the consistent slight overpay but we seem willing to do things Benning couldn't like walk away from mistakes.  We also seem to be targeting more players on the way up than Benning did, he usually wanted to pay players for what they did for other clubs, not what they can do for us.

Anyway my point before I started meandering is all sides of this can be true, he is a good player, a good competitor on a fair contract but has had some hiccups in fitness and professionalism, has not carried us anywhere further than mediocre and will probably be on way down by the time we are starting to get competitive.  His trade was symptomatic of issues with Benning not recognizing where we were as a franchise an issue that he then used to parlay into the OEL albatross.

 

 

JT Miller was a great trade.   As far as timing goes for sure up for debate.    He's already far surpassed what scouts are trying to get out of a later first.   Past 20, 200 games is considered a success.   He's scored 299 points.    

 

As for our team,  going to have to see how it does with even average goaltending hopefully this year, and an OEL upgrade.   Our forward group has been good or above average now for a couple seasons.   Definitely playoff worthy, especially given the depth - minus some PK ability, that's probably just average.    Our  D PK ability is trash.   EP/Miller and Horvat was enough upfront.    JB tried to fix the D and failed.   What Allvin can do with his new found cap space, when cap is king (12 or so with LTIR), could very well become his legacy.     

[Master Mind]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Absolutely Hronek is a 1D. He was the best player on the Wings. Their team went seriously backwards without him. He doesn’t have to play that role for us. We are blessed with Hughes, who is a generational talent. And Yzerboy is the reason we gave both. 

The same statements were said about OEL when we traded for him.

 

Neither were 1D's when acquired.

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

I'll trust Yzerman's assessment over Button's.

Yzerman would have kept Hronek, if he wasn't still trying to find an EP or QHs in the draft. 

[DrJockitch]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

JT Miller was a great trade.   As far as timing goes for sure up for debate.    He's already far surpassed what scouts are trying to get out of a later first.   Past 20, 200 games is considered a success.   He's scored 299 points.    

 

As for our team,  going to have to see how it does with even average goaltending hopefully this year, and an OEL upgrade.   Our forward group has been good or above average now for a couple seasons.   Definitely playoff worthy, especially given the depth - minus some PK ability, that's probably just average.    Our  D PK ability is trash.   EP/Miller and Horvat was enough upfront.    JB tried to fix the D and failed.   What Allvin can do with his new found cap space, when cap is king (12 or so with LTIR), could very well become his legacy.     

In isolation yes a great return on a mid-late first rounder.  In the context of the situation it is less certain.

[Master Mind]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yzerman would have kept Hronek, if he wasn't still trying to find an EP or QHs in the draft. 

If Hronek is as good as some here want to believe, he wouldn't have been traded.

 

Detroit can effectively be bad with him on the roster -- that's been the case during his entire time there.

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

The same statements were said about OEL when we traded for him.

 

Neither were 1D's when acquired.

Dude, Hronek was playing ahead of Seider in Detroit's depth chart.   Trading him (although he was injured his last game), helped with their tank as well, so improved their own pick.   That was the strategy.   IF say Zadina was like EP, no way would he have weakened his right side like that.   The trade made sense for both sides.   Also Button said, and agree with him 100% on this, had we not made the trade, given how bad our D is, might as well trade EP and QHs as well, and didn't bring up that they both don't want to stick around for a rebuild either.

 

Will absolutely take Buttons word over my own, or any CDCer I don't actually know credentials for.   Button is a scout.  And a good one.   His lists are regularly better than what we drafted lol.   Should have just gone with his BPA.   Listen to his comments about the trade.   He said it made zero sense for us to not make this trade, and that it was a great trade.   Also suggest maybe investing some time into the odds of the first round, and maybe later rounds working out.   Of course you can't get a gem without a lottery ticket.    If you're into a rip it all apart sort of thing, will you could be right.   But i for one, at least want to see what another GM can do to finish things up with this core.   Before throwing away a couple future HHOFers. 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yzerman would have kept Hronek, if he wasn't still trying to find an EP or QHs in the draft. 

They have Filip Zadina. Yzerman must be so happy Detroit took him over Quinn Hughes.  

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

They have Filip Zadina. Yzerman must be so happy Detroit took him over Quinn Hughes.  

Well he was the "consensus" BPA at the time.