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*Official* CBA Negotiations and Lockout Thread


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#3331 poetica

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

It's so simple. It's because the own the NHL. Is that really hard to understand? You've come up all the time because you are bitter about 2004's lockout. Unfortunately, fail to look at the situation with the sense of reality. Bosses are suppose to boss around the employees, not the other way around. Have a problem? Go play in another league or do something else. It's really that simple.

Instead, because both sides are so cocky and have so much pride. Let the union destroy themselves, leaving everyone stranded and lost. Makes so much sense right?


I understand they own the teams. That does not mean they have the right to do anything they want without restrictions, especially when they have to work with a union and have signed contracts. Owning a team also should not give what may only be a few the right to drag out this situation to the destruction of other owners' teams.

If you think both sides are cocky and prideful, why do you call out the players for not just giving in but not the owners? I do not understand holding the owners to a lesser standard, especially since their investment is more long-term and they have more to gain or lose.

And you still never answered my last post. If by your own definition the owners don't care about hockey, why should we support them? Bosses may get to boss players around, but they are all supposed to listen to the customers who is the source of their income.
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#3332 Rey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

Actually, its more of the opposite. The NHLPA has been ready talk but each time they want to the NHL doesn't want to talk. It was pretty clear that the NHL, especially Bettman, wanted this lockout. Otherwise there would've been a CBA signed long before now.


The NHL doesn't want to talk because the PA isn't willing to budge. Forget everything Bettman and Fehr have said. Look at what has actually happened. Throughout the lockout, it would be foolish to take any of either party's conference seriously.

Edited by Rey, 24 November 2012 - 11:02 PM.

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#3333 Rey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

I understand they own the teams. That does not mean they have the right to do anything they want without restrictions, especially when they have to work with a union and have signed contracts. Owning a team also should not give what may only be a few the right to drag out this situation to the destruction of other owners' teams.

If you think both sides are cocky and prideful, why do you call out the players for not just giving in but not the owners? I do not understand holding the owners to a lesser standard, especially since their investment is more long-term and they have more to gain or lose.

And you still never answered my last post. If by your own definition the owners don't care about hockey, why should we support them? Bosses may get to boss players around, but they are all supposed to listen to the customers who is the source of their income.


I've repeated myself too many times to you, and you just come up with the same questions. Please let it be the last.

The Owners own the league, thus they are in charge. If the players want to be hardball, they can but at the end of the day. It's the Owners that have the say. It's only the players that like in every league, give in and compromise with the league for the respect of the game and get the best deal available.

C'mon now. As if anyone cares about the fans. There's nothing to answer, It's right in front of you. If you don't want to support the NHL. Don't watch it. No one is forcing you to. Yet, you are still here in a nhl board discussing about the NHL. Casual fans will come back if there is a product on the ice. The owners know it and the Players know it.

Edited by Rey, 24 November 2012 - 11:14 PM.

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#3334 poetica

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

I rather focus on what has actually happened aside to what Fehrs or the Bettmans have said. People act if what they say actually matter. They can say anything to the media. So, tell me. What has actually happened? in terms of offers? proposals? The NHL has given up a lot more albeit obviously not enough but that's the reality.(We're talking about this lockout). Not the ones in the past.


The PA has made I think 5 offers so far (the initial one, the trio of options, and the last one) and the NHL has made what, 2?

And the PA's proposals have all been serious and could have been starting points unlike the NHL's first offer which was never intended to be accepted, only to give owners an artificially constructed place from which to start in order to appear to be making concessions when really they are just making fewer new demands.

While at best the owners have offered slightly more team revenue sharing (which benefits owners, not players!) and to partially honor the contracts they signed with their "make whole" (which, according to what Bettman's been saying about accounting for the lost revenue, they apparently want players to get less from now than what they publicly offered because of the owners' lockout), the players have offered to give up about a billion dollars of their share over the CBA, offered rules to address back diving contracts, offered change in cap system to address concerns about poorer teams finding the floor too hard to reach, and agreed to at least 2 other changes requested by owners, namely allowing teams unlimited recalls and counting some NHL contracts in minors against the cap.

So explain how all of that means the owners have made most of the concessions, or really any at all. Honestly, you implying they have made more concessions than the players makes me seriously question how much you understand about what has been going on.
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#3335 poetica

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

I've repeated myself too many times to you, and you just come up with the same questions. Please let it be the last.

The Owners own the league, thus they are in charge. If the players want to be hardball, they can but at the end of the day. It's the Owners that have the say. It's only the players that like in every league, give in and compromise with the league for the respect of the game and get the best deal available.

C'mon now. As if anyone cares about the fans. There's nothing to answer, It's right in front of you. If you don't want to support the NHL. Don't watch it. No one is forcing you to. Yet, you are still here in a nhl board discussing about the NHL. Casual fans will come back if there is a product on the ice. The owners know it and the Players know it.


Oh, I see. You don't actually have any answers to the questions I've asked, just a "money always trumps what's right" attitude.

Giving in to owners making the same mistakes over and over, rewarding them for their bad decisions and excessive greed which is damaging the league is not how players can show their respect for the game. In fact, it's rather the opposite.
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#3336 Rey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

Yep Poetica. The NHLPA numbers were so serious that they they couldn't even do the math in their proposals. Ultimately, you are a fan of players, and they have to be right for you all the time. That's fine, but we've been through this already and there just isn't enough time i really want to spend with you arguing over it. What I think or what you think doesn't matter anyways.

Let the PA do their job, and destroy the NHL but in doing so, the majority of players will sit and lose money and jobs. We are all spectators here. I say, bring this thread back in 2-3 and see which side , at the end of the day, will benefit more.

Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored. Think of him as a Golden boy, clearly, despite him also creating lockout after lockout and causing chaos in every league he goes to. Let's all support the players, cause they are so ever so smart with their harvard degrees and their understanding of the situation. Lets all jump in the ship, and sink together.

Like Erik Cole said , we want to respect players who have gone through this and hope they're job was for something and not nothing. Thus, lets have a decertificant to destroy everything cause everything anyone fought for in the past can be forgotten. GG

Stubborn and Naive defines everything about the lockout. Too proud for what? Destroy it all!

Edited by Rey, 25 November 2012 - 12:03 AM.

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#3337 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

I rather focus on what has actually happened aside to what Fehrs or the Bettmans have said. People act if what they say actually matter. They can say anything to the media. So, tell me. What has actually happened? in terms of offers? proposals? The NHL has given up a lot more albeit obviously not enough but that's the reality.(We're talking about this lockout). Not the ones in the past.


The NHL made a joke of an offer originally, that wasn't serious in anyway and was really just a waste of time, the offers from the NHL side only started getting somewhat serious in mid october when the "50/50" split was offered, which wasn't actually 50/50, that offer greatly favoured the NHL, and wasn't as fair as they made it seem.

The PA in turn offered 3 deals, all that would end up at 50/50, the first two had a dipping point inbetween, but the 3rd was immediate 50/50 aslong as current contracts were honoured (Something that should be a given IMO, the owneres did rush to sign alot of them after all) But of course they were declined.

The NHL and NHLPA are actually quite close, the NHLPA has made over a billion dollars in concessions since october, they are only about 100-200 Million apart on the make whole provision which seems to be the key to this, they said they appreciated the billion dollar revenue but didn't give anything in return. They still won't budge on the contract rights.

The NHL needs to move next, but they won't, Gary Bettman himself even said that there offers won't get finacially better, so to me either one of a few things happen:

1) The NHL moves the proccess forward like they should, move a bit closer on the make whole and give the players the original contracting rights (Aside from cap circumenving deals)

2) The NHLPA and NHL both have a stand off and wait for one another to cave, which would again just make this more of a battle of propaganda rather than a negotiation to build a partner ship

3) The NHLPA Caves. Which won't happen anytime soon. They players seem to be stronger than ever, they are willing to move to reach a fair deal but they aren't going to cave into demands.

4) This thing goes nuclear and the decertification comes out, if so we can kiss the game as we know it good bye. And the NHL can kiss all the progress they have made since 1995 goodbye, and the rest of this season would surley be gone, aswell as possibly last season, the NHL would be a wreck after it and HRR would drop to an all time low.
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#3338 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:04 AM

Yep Poetica. The NHLPA numbers were so serious that they they couldn't even do the math in their proposals. Ultimately, you are a fan of players, and they have to be right for you all the time. That's fine, but we've been through this already and there just isn't enough time i really want to spend with you arguing over it. What I think or what you think doesn't matter anyways.

Let the PA do their job, and destroy the NHL but in doing so, the majority of players will sit and lose money and jobs. We are all spectators here. I say, bring this thread back in 2-3 and see which side , at the end of the day, will benefit more.

Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored. Think of him as a Golden boy, clearly, despite him also creating lockout after lockout and causing chaos in every league he goes to. Let's all support the players, cause they are so ever so smart with their harvard degrees and their understanding of the situation. Lets all jump in the ship, and sink together.

Like Erik Cole said , we want to respect players who have gone through this and hope they're job was for something and not nothing. Thus, lets have a decertificant to destroy everything cause everything anyone fought for in the past can be forgotten. GG


Decertification would destroy everything for both sides, it would destroy the game as we know it.

But that's not why I replied.

I wanna know how you think the PA is destroying the NHL game, when they are the ones who have been doing most of the negotiating? While the Owner's sit back, make demands, and show that they are not willing to move any closer to the PA.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 25 November 2012 - 12:04 AM.

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#3339 Rey

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:13 AM

I wanna know how you think the PA is destroying the NHL game, when they are the ones who have been doing most of the negotiating? While the Owner's sit back, make demands, and show that they are not willing to move any closer to the PA.


This is basically a who do you want to believe, type of question. Owners or the Players. I don''t think you really know the real details of the 3 offers presented to Bettman. I don't have time at the moment to dig it out. The final offer was told from individual players that it would be 50/50, as long as the contracts were honored. There were much more details involved that people didn't know about. Maybe I'll try to dig it out when i find the time.

Edited by Rey, 25 November 2012 - 12:16 AM.

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#3340 SamJamIam

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:32 AM

Shut up. Whatever you say is wrong because it came from you not me.


That's what all your posts sound like.
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#3341 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:52 AM

This is basically a who do you want to believe, type of question. Owners or the Players. I don''t think you really know the real details of the 3 offers presented to Bettman. I don't have time at the moment to dig it out. The final offer was told from individual players that it would be 50/50, as long as the contracts were honored. There were much more details involved that people didn't know about. Maybe I'll try to dig it out when i find the time.


See you don't know what happened.

It's not a "Who do you want to believe" Every Proposal has been made public, let's go off the last one, cause really those old offer's are no long relevant, since we have moved much closer since.

Here are some of the main issue's there are alot more other things, but these are some of the main things, you take a look:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the split of HRR and the "Make whole" Provision/Transitional Payments.

Players' Share: A major move in the owners' direction by removing guarantees or fixed targets for Players' share.

Honouring Players' Contracts/Transition payments: Players' Share will equal 50 percent of HRR plus fixed payments in the first four years to partially honour player contracts and ease the transition to 50/50:
2012-13: $182M
2013-14: $128M
2014-15: $72M
2015-16: $11M
Total $393M


*The owners had previously proposed $211M




The NHLPA's last proposal had them at about 500 Million over 5 years (I don't know the exact number) but as you can see they moved slightly over 100 Million closer to the NHL who had proposed 211 Million, so 182 Million is currently all that seperates the two in the core economic issue.


Now here are some of the contract issue's brought up by the NHL, this is what they NHLPA proposed in respect to those concerns in there proposal.

Long-term back-diving contracts: Cap benefit recapture rule so clubs no longer benefit from front-loading contracts (move in the owners' direction).

Contracts in the minors: Clubs take a cap hit on contracts in the minors over $1M (move in the owners' direction).
Four Recall Rule: Unlimited recalls after regular season (move in the owners' direction).

Salary Arbitration: Elimination of walk-away from arbitrator's decision, but clubs can still "walk-away" by not qualifying a player



Again there are alot more to it, most of the other's aren't as big of issue's but here is the entire proposal if you want to take a look for yourself.


Entire NHLPA Proposal, Novemeber 21st.
Spoiler

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#3342 fwybwed

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:11 AM

I feel the people who are supporting the players are blinded by a couple of things 1. Player fan'atics and/or..2. Billionaire envy or hate.

This decertification will not pose any threat. As courts that have gone over this with other leagues know that once things are settled the NHLPA will only reunionize...and that it was only a tactic. The NHL is not phased by this rumour.

You cannot slow the roll of Bettman haters because they are many. Many that are uninformed and uneducated. The players always speak of the fans, Zzz But the players can sure discount the fans for their criticism For instance...Booth he is a current Canuck....Lets look at his tweet from last years loss....:"so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat"...A jab us fans who critized the team for lack of performance (Me included) But if he would have copied the whole quote he would have included FAIL in there lol "at least he fails while daring greatly" The reason he left that part out because......it WASN'T GREAT lol

Players don't care about you.....they get their money from the owners....the less they have to payout in HRR to a player the less the tics would be...the more games you can bring your sons to....The owners need you...they need to fill their arena's....if they have to dish out more to every NHL Player then they have to raise the prices in all aspects of the business. And if you cant understand this....then maybe you are a "Puck Benny"
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#3343 The Bookie

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:34 AM

...still drooling.....
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#3344 pdc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

Pdc, you made multiple excellent points, some of which I referenced earlier (lower players' salaries tanking, poor teams folding, etc.) Certainly, if decertification were carried through it would be a world of bad for both teams and players.



Not withstanding my previous statement (the whole world of bad thing), I don't think the players would lose their lawsuits nor do I think the number playing in Europe would have any effect. The owners locked out the players despite year after year after year of record revenues under the system the owners themselves designed and the law very clearly puts the responsibility for ensuring profit on the owners, guaranteeing employees get paid regardless of the health of the company. The players offered to continue playing under the old CBA (which was profitable for many teams, certainly more than not playing) while negotiating on a new one, the owners refused without a single shred of evidence that the players didn't intend to do just that. Any speculation that they would have gone on strike or drug their feet in the negotiations is just that, speculation and can't be used against them. So, the owners locked out players who offered to play, denied them their right to work despite signed contracts due to their own business problems for SOME teams, and have not shown an eagerness to negotiate despite the union offering multiple concessions. I think everyone knows the NHL is playing hard ball, with almost all of their "concessions" simply being reducing their wish list of demands which they purposefully overinflated from their first offer just so they could appear to be "giving" something when in reality they are just demanding slightly fewer new concessions from players.

As for players playing in other leagues, that's entirely within their right to do so as it is the owners preventing players from fulfilling their contracts. (Players playing in other leagues during a strike would be an entirely different matter.) Not only is it within their right to do so legally (it's called mitigating your damages), the NHL and KHL, for example, even have a signed agreement between them that deals with just such a situation (that limits locked out NHLers to I believe 65% of their NHL salary while playing in the KHL and I would assume requires they be released by the KHL once the NHL starts working again). Given those facts, I don't see how some of the players playing in other leagues could be used against them. Plus then there's also the fact that some of the multiple lawsuits wouldn't involve any players who did play abroad.



Nope, I think you understand perfectly. Like I said, a world of bad for both sides and quite possibly far worse for fans as it would mean no NHL hockey for years, and that's assuming the league survived at all.

The sad fact is, however, that at least moving in that direction may be the only power move the union has if the NHL can't show any flexibility or willingness to negotiate. They're already winning just with the lowered players' share and the union's offer to penalize teams signing new back diving contracts. Those are the meat and potatoes of a CBA. Everything else is just dessert, and I for one hope the owners' eyes aren't bigger than their stomachs. Or ours.


Thanks I thought I understood some of the ramifications. The only reason why I mentioned players playing oversees was in the NFL lawsuit and the NBA threat of a lawsuit their were going after that lockout was illegal and causing irreparable harm, so they deserved treble damages. In order to win damages, you have to prove irreparable harm. It might be harder because so many are playing abroad and still earning money. Though I realize its not the same amoount as they would normally make. I don't know the finer details of the law too well, just seemed like another factor that could make and outcome of a lawsuit even murkier.
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#3345 Boudrias

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:28 AM

It's still saddens me that people talk as if Bettman actually has any power at all. It's the owners that are telling him what to do and what they want. The owners run the league and with or without decertification it won't effect the owners as much as the players.

The players need to start looking for themselves, and look at their losses and not look at the whole and realize they've already lost more money in these lockouts than they would have if they played.

And to remind you. The Owners and Bettman wanted to negotiate all year. Fehr had to wait until the last minutes and this is what happens. You can't win a ego war if you are being stubborn.

Players are stupid because there is a better deal for them right now, than "decertification"

I'm not siding with anyone, but you'd have to be stupid to think the Owners are willing to change their stance. It will always be that way. If the Players and Union don't want to do anything, then fine. Lets have decertification. Lets see how you will like it, or any fan sees it. This isn't about who should win or who's ego is bigger. It's about the game of hockey itself. You can hate Bettman, Fehr, Both, it doesn't matter. The end result will be bad for hockey. You hate the NHL? You honestly mean that? Your telling me that you don't like hockey? or are you being naive because you want a specific "person"(s) to fail?

Players are desperate and Fehr pulls this off, and you can say it with a smile that you support them? What a joke.

I think fans take comfort in focussing on Bettman as the big problem. This lockout has always been about ownership objectives. These guys are all experienced businessmen and if anyone thinks that the Fehr brothers can intimidate them then we will see. Sadly this process could set the NHL back for years. I have said all along that the players approach should have been collegial rather than confrontational. That opportunity seems to be long gone. De-certification will escalate this dispute even further.
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#3346 gizmo2337

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored. Think of him as a Golden boy, clearly, despite him also creating lockout after lockout and causing chaos in every league he goes to.


Fehr represents his side well and doesn't dictate. I hear comments from the players "We have never been so well connected and informed of the current issues at hand". The same can't be said for Bettman. I have no proof of any owners saying they specifically support the lockout because there is a gag order. If Fehr caused a year of baseball lost, then I'd take that gamble for 17 years of labour peace. If we are going to lose the whole year, let's hope that is the case here as well.
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#3347 elvis15

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:31 AM

I rather focus on what has actually happened aside to what Fehrs or the Bettmans have said. People act if what they say actually matter. They can say anything to the media. So, tell me. What has actually happened? in terms of offers? proposals? The NHL has given up a lot more albeit obviously not enough but that's the reality.(We're talking about this lockout). Not the ones in the past.

Since you keep making claims without actually knowing what has happened, here's a link for you.

CBA Timeline


Nov. 21
The NHL Players' Association tables a five-year proposal that includes a 50-50 split of revenues, receiving a percentage of revenue rather than a fixed amount and $393 million in deferred make whole payments throughout the agreement. The league rejects the offer, holding firm on $211 million and a 50-50 split.
Oct. 18
The NHL Players' Association supplies three separate proposals to the National Hockey League in response to the NHL's Oct. 16 offer. The league, however, turns down all three proposals and the meeting breaks up after a little more than an hour.
Oct. 16
The NHL puts a new offer on the bargaining table for the NHLPA, which includes a 50/50 split of hockey-related revenue across the board and contingent on an 82-game season beginning Nov. 2. According to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, the offer calls for no salary rollback and the revised schedule - if implemented - would see every team play an extra game every five weeks.
Sept. 12
The NHL files its latest proposal in the ongoing labour talks with the NHL Players' Association, giving the union until Saturday to accept before pulling it off the table. The proposal includes an increase to the 46 per cent of revenue players were offered in the league's last proposal. The players currently get 57 per cent of revenues.
Aug. 28
The NHL makes a counterproposal off the NHLPA's Aug. 13 proposal. Under the HRR parameters of the soon-to-expiring CBA, they scale the players' share of revenue from 57 percent in Year 4 to 46 percent.
Aug. 13 - 16
Four days of talks in Toronto. The NHLPA delivers its first proposal saying the players are willing to give up a portion of future revenue growth for a period of three years. The salary cap under their proposal would start at $69 million for the 2012-13 season and Year 4 of the proposed CBA would go back to 57 percent for the players.

Those are the main proposal events, but when there were talks and when one side refused to meet are all in there as well. If you want to talk about what the haven't said, versus what we know they've said (and what we know they've proposed since that's also documented), then go right ahead. Doesn't mean you'll make sense, but go ahead anyways.
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#3348 Lui's Knob

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

Any way to oust fehr and bring in paul Kelly again???
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#3349 poetica

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

The NHLPA numbers were so serious that they they couldn't even do the math in their proposals.


What are you talking about?

Lets all line up to curse at Bettman because he is in charge because that's the intellectual thing to do. Fehr's history can be ignored.


Oh, look. You finally may be understanding something. It is fair to hold Bettman's history with the NHL against him. It's not fair to take anger at Fehr for what he did years ago in baseball against him in regard to hockey, especially when the reality is he's done nothing here but make it clear he's at the players' command.

Like Erik Cole said , we want to respect players who have gone through this and hope they're job was for something and not nothing. Thus, lets have a decertificant to destroy everything cause everything anyone fought for in the past can be forgotten. GG


How can you say we should have respect for players who've been through a lockout before, but have none of the ones going through it now? Especially after you said we shouldn't be considering the last lockout at all and after you made snide comments about the players' supposed stupidity. If their opinions shouldn't count when they don't agree with you because you think they're all stupid, they shouldn't count any more when they do agree with you.

And you really aren't paying attention if you think at any point I've said decertfication was a good thing or in any way desirable. But then, I guess the fact that you think it's on the players alone to not destroy the NHL proves that you're not paying attention.
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Go, Canucks, Go!
Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#3350 Mauii

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:33 AM

I envy the MLB and their commissioner/system...one day I hope we can receive similar news/results for the NHL:

http://mlb.mlb.com/n...ws_mlb&c_id=mlb

There is no need to be greedy and a bully to be a successful organization. It seems with the MLB both parties have a genuine interest in getting the deal done and the show on the road. The negotiations are not hindered by political bs on part of the owners.

Rey...try setting up a business and treat your employees like crap, downgrade your product, disregard your consumers, set up shop where there's no traffic or interest in your product and see how far your business will go...which is pretty much the NHL's business model. Does that sound like a smart business plan to you and a franchise you'd want to invest in? It looks like its set up for failure if you ask me or sheer arrogance or ignorance...cant tell but a sure way to destroy the one national sport Canada has loved for eons.

Edited by Mauii, 25 November 2012 - 12:13 PM.

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"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

#3351 6YPE

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:44 AM

112 pages of supporters of their perspective sides pissing and moaning just like the NHL and the PA, no wonder nothing will ever get done, they arent any different than all of you..
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#3352 Remy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

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#3353 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:01 PM

112 pages of supporters of their perspective sides pissing and moaning just like the NHL and the PA, no wonder nothing will ever get done, they arent any different than all of you..

You tell em.
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#3354 GoodCanadianKideh

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:18 PM

The league should be embarrassed for how it treats it's fans.

Start showing AHL games on TV and the NHL can lock out for as long as they like.
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#3355 WiDeN

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

Someone call the people that negotiated the cease fire in the Gaza strip. They should be able to get this done.
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#3356 c-a-n-u-c-k-s

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

I think fans take comfort in focussing on Bettman as the big problem. This lockout has always been about ownership objectives. These guys are all experienced businessmen and if anyone thinks that the Fehr brothers can intimidate them then we will see. Sadly this process could set the NHL back for years. I have said all along that the players approach should have been collegial rather than confrontational. That opportunity seems to be long gone. De-certification will escalate this dispute even further.


And you think that the players approach was intentionally confrontational eh? Ever think of Why?
Do you not think Bettman & the owners approach is antagonistic?

If your bank raises your mortgage payments and lowers the value of your house - clearly only to support their own business, not in any way "for you"..... and you decide to argue for your side..... who's the confrontational one? If you knew beforehand they were going to do that... so you went & hired an expensive lawyer with experience in that area... (or whatev, it's a story...).... your friends might say it's YOU who's looking for a fight - being confrontational - but you only did that because you already know whats about to happen.

Personally I think it's obvious the NHLPA hired Fehr because they KNEW that the NHL was gonna play hard ball and try to take as much as they could in the next CBA. So you play the game accordingly = hire the big shot lawyer.

Is that confrontational or a case of appropriate response?
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#3357 poetica

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

Bettman becomes hockey’s worst enemy

Let’s face the truth, folks: Gary Bettman has become hockey’s worst enemy.

Bettman is now the author of three lockouts and the disastrous expansion into the Sun Belt, egomaniac, a man who would rather destroy the National Hockey League than form a workable partnership with the players. Under his watch, the NHL has already lost more games to labour disruptions than the three other major North American team sports combined — with no end in sight.

This is why we are staring into the face of a winter without NHL hockey. Because Bettman, a pint-sized Grinch with a pea-sized heart, has no passion for the game. He does not like or respect the players, he has no use for the journalists who cover the game, he doesn’t care a fig for the thousands or tens of thousands of people who have lost their jobs or had their hours reduced because of the Bettman lockout.

Above all, Gary Bettman has nothing but contempt for the millions of fans who provide the financial engine that drives the game. Bettman talks about “our wonderful fans” but what he means is “the suckers who keep buying tickets, no matter how badly they are treated.”

If Bettman cared, we would not be enduring this completely unnecessary lockout. If he had the same passion for the game that is in the hearts of millions of Canadians, he would not have shut down the league in order to enrich a handful of owners.

The last shred of hope we had that Bettman would begin to behave in a rational manner vanished last Wednesday, when the NHL had asked the NHLPA to set down its proposals in writing. Donald Fehr and his staff complied. Within less than an hour, it was clear that the request was nothing but a publicity stunt on Bettman’s part: the NHLPA proposal was shot down like all the rest, and the league faced its version of a nuclear winter.

Those of you who think the players are equally to blame simply aren’t paying attention. From the beginning, the players have been giving and giving and giving again in relation to the last CBA while the NHL is “giving” only play money, in relation to the league’s initial offer — which was like something drawn up by a madman. (Yes, that madman.) On top of the huge financial giveback, the league is demanding that players surrender contracting rights it took six decades to win.

Bettman likes to cultivate the image of a shrewd, hard-headed businessman, but in truth he’s a blundering fool who will squander tens of millions of dollars out of sheer stubbornness. (See the Phoenix Coyotes). There is no way he will ever get enough out of this lockout to justify the loss of even part of a season, not to mention alienating the broadcasters, sponsors, players, agents and fans.

Almost from the beginning of his tenure, Bettman’s alleged goal was for a significant NHL presence on American network television. (That’s what was used to justify the idiotic, headlong expansion into the Sun Belt). So the league finally gets NBC, the Winter Classic and the priceless publicity of HBO’s 24/7 — and then Bettman kicks his broadcast “partners” in the teeth by cancelling all of the league’s most high-profile events except the playoffs, which may be next to go.

Smart? Bettman is smart only when it comes to taking care of one Gary Bettman. This lockout is dragging on and on because you have a commissioner and a small clique of owners acting contrary to the interests of millions: of the workers who depend on jobs at the arena or in related industries, the players, the fans. All in the interests of Bettman himself and a handful of owners, like Murray Edwards, Craig Leipold, Ed Snider and Jeremy Jacobs.

(Canadiens owner Geoff Molson is not at the table and in any case, if you read between the lines of Molson’s chat with Dave Stubbs, it was pretty clear that Molson is not down with this lockout. He wouldn’t be: he understands and loves the game on every level, as a player, a fan and a team executive. He also understands that the ownership of a team like the Canadiens carries with it a sacred trust.)

Unfortunately, Molson is not the commissioner and there are not enough Geoff Molsons in the ownership ranks to fire this bum before he destroys what’s left of the game.

Instead, Bettman appears ready to drive this bus off the nearest cliff — and the rest of us, those who really love the game of hockey, are doomed to go along for the ride.

Lies, rumours &&&& vicious innuendo: When it comes to damaging a sport, Bettman doesn’t have many rivals. But Jeffrey Loria and David Samson are right up there with him — as their fire sale in Miami confirms. Con a town into building you a stadium, then sell off the team. Beautiful. Sadly, the Marlins sell-off isn’t going to help the Blue Jays, who will still finish well up the track in the American League East. …

*Finally decided enough was enough and pulled the plug on TSN in my house. CFL season over, F1 over, and TSN is very short of product. Bob McKenzie is terrific, but between the Jay Onrait/Dan O’Toole gong show and Foghorn Dreghorn endlessly tooting his own horn — there are better ways to waste your day. …

*After all he’s done for the Alouettes, Anthony Calvillo should be allowed to retire at a time and in a manner of his choosing. Here’s one simple task for those who are ripping Calvillo: show me the available quarterback who’s going to do a better job. …

*On an entirely personal level, I’m hoping that Scott Flory also returns. Guys like Flory and Bryan Chiu made this job easier for everyone. I’m a little surprised that Flory might want another season of banging heads in the trenches — but if he does, more power to him. …

*I think the guy is a terrific coach. I’ve never ripped him in print. But somehow, I can’t ask a question that Marc Trestman doesn’t take the wrong way. …

*When is someone in New York going to figure out that 1) Rex Ryan can’t coach; 2) Mark Sanchez can’t play quarterback and 3) Tim Tebow was nothing but a cruel publicity stunt on the part of a train-wreck of an organization? …

*That’s an interesting commercial LeBron James has, teaching American kids how NOT to speak English. …

*I don’t care if he did play for Nebraska. Ndamukong Suh is a dirty player.

Heroes: Lionel Messi, Mark Buehrle, Anthony Calvillo, Scott Flory, Brian Bratton, Shea Emry, Chip Cox, Kyries Hebert, Jack Taylor, Sebastian Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Robert Griffin III, Dan Ralph, Steve Milton, CFL reporter-of-the-year Zeke Herbowsky &&&& last but not least, Donald Fehr and the NHLPA.

Zeros: Jeffrey Loria, David Samson, Lance Armstrong, LeBron James, Ndamukong Suh, Hope Solo, Jerramy Stevens, Nick Saban, Jim Tressel, Rex Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Jerry Jones, Roger Goodell, Daryl Katz, Murray Edwards, Craig Leipold, Ed Snider, Jeremy Jacobs, Bill Daly, Pierre Gauthier, replay review &&&& last but not least, the worst commissioner in sports, the Littlest Tyrant himself — Gary Bettman.


Edited by poetica, 25 November 2012 - 06:06 PM.

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Go, Canucks, Go!
Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#3358 The Bookie

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

Alfredsson Trying to Understand Owners’ Strategy

Daniel Alfredsson says he cannot understand what Commissioner Gary Bettman and the N.H.L. owners are trying to accomplish with their lockout.
“Last time around we knew what the league wanted — they had to get a cap,” Alfredsson said Saturday night. “This time around I have a hard time seeing what their game plan is.”
Alfredsson, speaking in the dressing room after Operation Hat Trick, a charity game in Atlantic City to benefit families affected by Hurricane Sandy, has not been alone in wondering why Bettman and the owners are risking their profitable business by remaining intransigent in negotiations despite the sides being so close on so many key issues.
Alfredsson calls that “the frustrating part” of the lockout. He was on the players’ association negotiating committee during the 2004-5 lockout, which resulted in the cancellation of the entire season. But that lockout made sense in that the N.H.L. was losing money and the owners could financially afford to sacrifice a season in an effort to get the players to accept a salary cap.
Now, however, the N.H.L. is a $3.3 billion business, and increasingly profitable. Bettman said last week that the lockout was costing the league $18 million to $20 million a day in lost revenue, roughly half of which would have gone to the owners. That comes to about $700 million the owners have lost so far.
The lockout has also angered sponsors, with the head of Molson Coors saying the company will seek reimbursement from the N.H.L.
Yet Bettman and the owners seem intent on continuing it, even though the two sides are close enough for a quick resolution.
They have gotten the players to agree to a 50-50 revenue split, leaving one substantial difference on economics: the owners have offered $211 million in deferred pay to “make whole” existing contracts over five years, while the players have asked for $393 million.
That $182 million gap works out to about $1.2 million per team, per year over the proposed five-year deal — or about the cost of a third-line forward.
The sides are also split on contract rights, but even those differences seem relatively minor in comparison to what the owners risk by losing a whole season. The owners want to add a year to both the age and the length of service a player must achieve in order to qualify for free agency (28 instead of 27, and eight years’ experience instead of seven). The owners also want to limit contracts to five years, and the players seem willing to accept something closer to seven- or eight-year limit.
Yet the owners have not budged on those issues since the initial proposal they made over the summer.
“Player contracting rights are vital on the players’ side,” Donald Fehr, the executive director of the players’ association, said Saturday. “So far we don’t have a recognition of that.”
Union officials have wondered whether Bettman and the owners have a date in mind at which they will rake in the concessions they have won, compromise on unresolved issues and move to a quick settlement. Perhaps answering Alfredsson’s question as to the owners’ strategy.
If there is such a date, it could be Dec. 5, when the N.H.L. Board of Governors convenes in New York for its annual meeting.
If the governors inform Bettman then that they want to settle, the season could start within a couple of weeks.
Under those circumstances, the hundreds of millions of dollars the owners will have lost would simply be the cost of doing business.


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#3359 fwybwed

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

Ahhh Poetica...It would be like you to find a journalist that hates owners/ billionaires as you do Jack Todd likes to become the Little engine that could face up the Mighty rich...and use his journalistic talents or lack there of to misinform the public....It was like reading one of your posts. If it were actually bias maybe it would have been a good read...

Hope the players CAVE soon ;) 
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#3360 The Bookie

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:14 PM

The 'Just Go Away Gary' piece is still the #1 read story on Grantland, a website more known for football & basketball journalism than hockey. Not that hard to find anti-Bettman writing these days.
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