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(Value Of) Bringing Back Raffi Torres


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#1 Pears

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:18 AM

This subject seemed to get a decent discussion going in the Luongo thread so I figured it would be a good idea to start a new thread on it.

I think many of us agree that not re-signing Torres was a bad idea since Raffi brought a whole new element to our third line. So what do you think it would take to get him back? I proposed Ballard for Torres but that didn't seem to get a good vibe.
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#2 Squeak

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:20 AM

This subject seemed to get a decent discussion going in the Luongo thread so I figured it would be a good idea to start a new thread on it.

I think many of us agree that not re-signing Torres was a bad idea since Raffi brought a whole new element to our third line. So what do you think it would take to get him back? I proposed Ballard for Torres but that didn't seem to get a good vibe.


I honestly believe that Phoenix would move him for pretty cheap - maybe a 3rd round pick would be enough?
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#3 Pears

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:22 AM

I honestly believe that Phoenix would move him for pretty cheap - maybe a 3rd round pick would be enough?

A third rounder for Raffi would be a pretty good deal. I'd do it if I were Gillis.
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#4 Lancaster

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:24 AM

The Canucks are missing that crushing forechecker. Kassian would fit that role, except the Sedins are more puck possession than dump and chase.
Volpatti doesn't get a regular shift. Hansen, Higgins, Kesler, Lapierre, can check, but they don't crush players.
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#5 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:31 AM

I honestly believe that Phoenix would move him for pretty cheap - maybe a 3rd round pick would be enough?


Yeah my feeling too.

I looked at the Higgins, Lappierre and Pahlsson deals, and see that the deal to get Raffi would be likely the same.

Since 3rds are more valuable than usual in this draft year, I proposed:

Ebbett, 4th, 5th.

They get a decent roster player going back in this one, something the other teams didn't in the prior trades.

That being said though, the only way they would be willing to make any sort of a move like this - would be if they were strongly out of the playoff race like those other teams were/seemed to be, or else I can't see them doing it.
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#6 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:17 AM

Where would you put him in the lineup though and who would come out for him?
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#7 GLASSJAW

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:02 AM

Uhh, why? We dont need Torres. What is CDC's obsession with 3rd/4th liners from previous years? We need offensive CONSISTENCY. This team needs legitimate top 6 talent, not up-and-down the lineup players.

Torres scored 14 goals for Vancouver, but remember that a large chunk of those came in a very brief period, and would often disappear for weeks at a time.

And who cares about his hitting? We don't need more hits from our bottom lines, we need more grit and drive from our TOP lines.

Ballard has been strong for us this year. He's part of our most consistent pair, and he does the unthinkable in a Vancouver shirt: sticks up for his teammates. He's looked good defensively (take note, Edler), and can throw a few punches and hits all the same. Ballard is way more valuable to this team than Torres is.
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#8 GLASSJAW

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:08 AM

The Canucks are missing that crushing forechecker. Kassian would fit that role, except the Sedins are more puck possession than dump and chase.
Volpatti doesn't get a regular shift. Hansen, Higgins, Kesler, Lapierre, can check, but they don't crush players.


yeah, on the top line. which is what kassian is meant to do. which is what kesler USED to do, and what booth was expected to do. NOT torres.

raffi torres is not a top 6 player. do you not remember his offensive output? i'm 80% sure he had two hat tricks in vancouver. if not, it was one hat trick and one two goal game. that's a huge chunk of of his year end offensive output committed to just TWO games. what about the other 80? he was barely visible for 55 of them.

canucks need raw talent, not inconsistent grit. ugh, don't we ever learn?

Edited by GLASSJAW, 28 January 2013 - 04:08 AM.

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#9 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:00 AM

Funny; a guy with a glass jaw who undervalues a big hitter?

FTR: the biggest benfit in Torres is the 218lb body who is big and fast enough to match up against guys like Marleau, Clowe, Pavelski... Not the crushing hits on the fore-check. Hey, those were exciting, took out Seabrook which possibly won us a series, but as a whole also caused us problems. Phoenix as well. Torres would be great if he found a fine line. But his body solved all kinds of match up problems for us

Don't know if you watched the first two shifts of today's game. Pavelski and Clowe pretty much laughed at gimps Higgins, Burrows and Hansen in the first shift and earned an O'zone draw for them. Our boys are gamers for sure, but that's a battle up some big hills. AV could not roll out Schneider, Raymond against 230 lb Thornton and 220 lb Marlowe who came out next, so he played the Twins (4 on 4), each 185 lbs. Hardly the match up we want.

No surprise; McLellan manufactured them a goal only 40 odd seconds into a game using match ups..

Yip; bring back Torres and shame on AV for using a coaches decision to sit Malhotra against such a big line up!


Edit a point I've made many times here; as much as Higgins is a better player than Torres (he is), we should have given Torres a 2 year deal, even if it cost us Higgins. Even having subsequently acquired Kassian, we're punching out of our weight class.

Edited by Canuck Surfer, 28 January 2013 - 08:18 AM.

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#10 kanucks1

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:19 AM

Funny; a guy with a glass jaw who undervalues a big hitter?

FTR: the biggest benfit in Torres is the 218lb body who is big and fast enough to match up against guys like Marleau, Clowe, Pavelski... Not the crushing hits on the fore-check. Hey, those were exciting, took out Seabrook which possibly won us a series, but as a whole also caused us problems. Phoenix as well. Torres would be great if he found a fine line. But his body solved all kinds of match up problems for us

Don't know if you watched the first two shifts of today's game. Pavelski and Clowe pretty much laughed at gimps Higgins, Burrows and Hansen in the first shift and earned an O'zone draw for them. Our boys are gamers for sure, but that's a battle up some big hills. AV could not roll out Schneider, Raymond against 230 lb Thornton and 220 lb Marlowe who came out next, so he played the Twins (4 on 4), each 185 lbs. Hardly the match up we want.

No surprise; McLellan manufactured them a goal only 40 odd seconds into a game using match ups..

Yip; bring back Torres and shame on AV for using a coaches decision to sit Malhotra against such a big line up!


Edit a point I've made many times here; as much as Higgins is a better player than Torres (he is), we should have given Torres a 2 year deal, even if it cost us Higgins. Even having subsequently acquired Kassian, we're punching out of our weight class.


Malholtra was not sat out, he had personal family matter to take care of.
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#11 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:33 AM

First off, of course we seem to be lacking fast, physical, punishing forwards...two of our best are currently injured. Once Kesler and Booth are back, they will up the grit on this team exponentially.

Secondly, for bringing back Torres, I would not be against it. Raffi was more valuable in the playoffs than people realize. He hobbled Seabrook and Thornton. Opposing teams had to keep their head up. And he scored another 15G last year, and had 2 points in 3 games before that suspension. (Say what you will about his hit on Hossa, but that was part of the reason Phoenix won that series, and made it to the conference finals.)

That said, Canucks management aren't dummies. They could have easily matched the offer from Phoenix (1.75 mil, 2 years), but chose not to. Were there problems in the room? Did Canucks players not appreciate his penchant for injuring their peers? Were opposing teams taking more liberties with us BECAUSE we had Raffi on the team? Or maybe Torres just didn't like it here? Who knows...

So yeah - not opposed to the idea, but also don't think it's a slam-dunk. And in a month, it could be completely unecessary
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#12 elvis15

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:23 AM

Where would you put him in the lineup though and who would come out for him?

Clearly we'd trade Raymond, Ballard and a 1st for him, then he could play wherever he wanted!

First off, of course we seem to be lacking fast, physical, punishing forwards...two of our best are currently injured. Once Kesler and Booth are back, they will up the grit on this team exponentially.

Secondly, for bringing back Torres, I would not be against it. Raffi was more valuable in the playoffs than people realize. He hobbled Seabrook and Thornton. Opposing teams had to keep their head up. And he scored another 15G last year, and had 2 points in 3 games before that suspension. (Say what you will about his hit on Hossa, but that was part of the reason Phoenix won that series, and made it to the conference finals.)

That said, Canucks management aren't dummies. They could have easily matched the offer from Phoenix (1.75 mil, 2 years), but chose not to. Were there problems in the room? Did Canucks players not appreciate his penchant for injuring their peers? Were opposing teams taking more liberties with us BECAUSE we had Raffi on the team? Or maybe Torres just didn't like it here? Who knows...

So yeah - not opposed to the idea, but also don't think it's a slam-dunk. And in a month, it could be completely unecessary

And more seriously, most of this. I don't really agree with bringing him back - we've seen first hand what can also happen after a big, but illegal hit and it's not always in your favour.

It's not like it's never happened to bring back a player you once had on your team, but it's my opinion this is one we offered another tryout deal to so we could see if he was good enough but were happy to walk away from when he wanted more.
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#13 GLASSJAW

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

Funny; a guy with a glass jaw who undervalues a big hitter?

FTR: the biggest benfit in Torres is the 218lb body who is big and fast enough to match up against guys like Marleau, Clowe, Pavelski... Not the crushing hits on the fore-check. Hey, those were exciting, took out Seabrook which possibly won us a series, but as a whole also caused us problems. Phoenix as well. Torres would be great if he found a fine line. But his body solved all kinds of match up problems for us

Don't know if you watched the first two shifts of today's game. Pavelski and Clowe pretty much laughed at gimps Higgins, Burrows and Hansen in the first shift and earned an O'zone draw for them. Our boys are gamers for sure, but that's a battle up some big hills. AV could not roll out Schneider, Raymond against 230 lb Thornton and 220 lb Marlowe who came out next, so he played the Twins (4 on 4), each 185 lbs. Hardly the match up we want.

No surprise; McLellan manufactured them a goal only 40 odd seconds into a game using match ups..

Yip; bring back Torres and shame on AV for using a coaches decision to sit Malhotra against such a big line up!


Edit a point I've made many times here; as much as Higgins is a better player than Torres (he is), we should have given Torres a 2 year deal, even if it cost us Higgins. Even having subsequently acquired Kassian, we're punching out of our weight class.


Like I hinted in my post, there's virtually no reason to believe Torres would have levelled a great hit against these players. Torres was non-existant in most games for Vancouver. Offensively he was a non-factor for the vast majority of the season. He didn't have high energy game changing hits every game. Not even close.

Clowe and co. were running wild all over the Canucks, and players like Raymond and Burrows are our second line. As I said, and as D Money said, the Canucks, ideally, wouldn't allow that if they were healthy (remember Kesler and Thornton's history?) And Hansen had an alright game, and I'd rather have him over Torres any day.

Yeah, Torres laid out Seabrook, but that gave Chicago steam, and THEY almost came back and won. How can you forget that? Chicago looked down and out before that hit.
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#14 Jägermeister

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

If we wanted him, we would have signed him to the same contract Phoenix offered him.
Not happening.
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#15 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

Incorrect; The key advantage of having signed Torres and Malhotra was that their key role was to insulate the first and 2knd line from key defensive match ups. If they scored it was a bonus.

Because they were both near 220 lbs, had speed, enough jam and each roughly 10 years experience, it was their job to take on whomever had 3 210 lb forwards running around in our zone. Manny would win draws, Torres battles on the boards and then they would use speed from Torres and Hansen to get the puck up to the offensive zone. If Torres was not on a short scoring streak, we ended up getting an offensive zone draw, and out popped the Twins or Kesler for a scoring chance. Like a field possesion game in NFL.

Again; watch the 2knd shift of the game yesterday; Thornton's goal. Defensive draw in our end 4 on 4, Thornton 230 and Marleau 220 lbs versus the Twins 185 lbs each. That draw would have been taken by Malhotra and Torres 100% of the time, its what their role was. Clowe and company wouldn't have been running rampage, nor would the Twins be wasting potential offensive shifts guarding them. Bloody oath we miss Torres!

Like I hinted in my post, there's virtually no reason to believe Torres would have levelled a great hit against these players. Torres was non-existant in most games for Vancouver. Offensively he was a non-factor for the vast majority of the season. He didn't have high energy game changing hits every game. Not even close.

Clowe and co. were running wild all over the Canucks, and players like Raymond and Burrows are our second line. As I said, and as D Money said, the Canucks, ideally, wouldn't allow that if they were healthy (remember Kesler and Thornton's history?) And Hansen had an alright game, and I'd rather have him over Torres any day.

Yeah, Torres laid out Seabrook, but that gave Chicago steam, and THEY almost came back and won. How can you forget that? Chicago looked down and out before that hit.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 28 January 2013 - 12:39 PM.

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#16 GLASSJAW

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:09 PM

Incorrect; The key advantage of having signed Torres and Malhotra was that their key role was to insulate the first and 2knd line from key defensive match ups. If they scored it was a bonus.

Because they were both near 220 lbs, had speed, enough jam and each roughly 10 years experience, it was their job to take on whomever had 3 210 lb forwards running around in our zone. Manny would win draws, Torres battles on the boards and then they would use speed from Torres and Hansen to get the puck up to the offensive zone. If Torres was not on a short scoring streak, we ended up getting an offensive zone draw, and out popped the Twins or Kesler for a scoring chance. Like a field possesion game in NFL.

Again; watch the 2knd shift of the game yesterday; Thornton's goal. Defensive draw in our end 4 on 4, Thornton 230 and Marleau 220 lbs versus the Twins 185 lbs each. That draw would have been taken by Malhotra and Torres 100% of the time, its what their role was. Clowe and company wouldn't have been running rampage, nor would the Twins be wasting potential offensive shifts guarding them. Bloody oath we miss Torres!


In other words, the role of every third line... ever?
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#17 Bure fan

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

If we wanted him, we would have signed him to the same contract Phoenix offered him.
Not happening.


Agreed,
I remember the day he signed in Phoenix and apparently Canucks were close to signing him again, but they did not want to sign him longer then one year.

While Torres wanted to sign for at least two years so he can have his family settle in a city instead of temporarily staying a year in a city, knowing you might have to leave again after. That's why Torres took a 2 year offer from Pheonix over a 1 year deal with Vancouver.

It's too bad Canucks couldn't keep him, very clutch, rough, and tough player. So enjoyable to watch.

As for the trade, I don't see it happening. But, it would likely take a 3rd round pick or 4th round pick.

Edited by Bure fan, 28 January 2013 - 02:17 PM.

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#18 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

I wouldn't expect much out of Raffi for the regular season. Especially after sitting out with this latest suspension.

However, he's always been a guy who comes to play in the playoffs.
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#19 Pears

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:08 PM

I wouldn't expect much out of Raffi for the regular season. Especially after sitting out with this latest suspension.

However, he's always been a guy who comes to play in the playoffs.

This is another reason as to why I want Gillis to re-acquire Raffi. He had like what, 3, 4 clutch goals in the playoffs two seasons ago?
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#20 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

This is another reason as to why I want Gillis to re-acquire Raffi. He had like what, 3, 4 clutch goals in the playoffs two seasons ago?


Yeah, he was solid.

And, statistically, our playoff run was the least productive playoffs of his career. Every other season he's been at 1/2 point-per-game. (Probably due to him being in the top-6 of every other team.)

I would gladly give him Raymond's roster spot, as Mason has been a total no-show in the postseason.

Edited by D-Money, 28 January 2013 - 03:44 PM.

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#21 whitegreen'nblue

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

Thought about it, and like the idea. Have him on the fourth line with lappy and hansen. That would be annoying to play against.

Sedins - Kassian
Higgins - Kesler - Burrows
Raymond - Schroeder - Booth
Torres - Lappy - Hansen
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#22 Salo'sBomb

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

I'm all for it. He hits like an absolute truck, he fights, he can chip in with clutch goals, and he's widely hated around the league so the Canucks will get even more haters which is great. And hey, maybe he can tune Duncan Keith too.
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#23 bossram

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

This subject seemed to get a decent discussion going in the Luongo thread so I figured it would be a good idea to start a new thread on it.

I think many of us agree that not re-signing Torres was a bad idea since Raffi brought a whole new element to our third line. So what do you think it would take to get him back? I proposed Ballard for Torres but that didn't seem to get a good vibe.


I think Phoenix would be nearly willing to give him away for free, considering his huge suspension history.

I like that Raffi brings a dangerous element. He's unpredictable. We need that. He's a good fit in the bottom-six.
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#24 Ron Swansons Moustache

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:20 PM

I loved Torres on this team but that ship has sailed. That player might not even exist anymore, he's coming off a 25 game suspension. Torres said he has to change his game and he almost had the book throw at him. One questionable hit and hes gone, you think Gillis wants that distraction?


Id love a player similar to him on the team though. Who else would be available though?

Edited by HandlerbarDeluxe, 28 January 2013 - 09:28 PM.

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#25 zombieksa

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

Thought about it, and like the idea. Have him on the fourth line with lappy and hansen. That would be annoying to play against.

Sedins - Kassian
Higgins - Kesler - Burrows
Raymond - Schroeder - Booth
Torres - Lappy - Hansen


That is essentially having our 2011 playoff 3rd line as our fourth line, a very attractive thought.

Make a trade for Brouwer/ward 3rd line rw and I like it even more.

Edited by knoxdown, 29 January 2013 - 10:26 AM.

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#26 Bure fan

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

That is essentially having our 2011 playoff 3rd line as our fourth line, a very attractive thought.

Make a trade for Brouwer/ward 3rd line rw and I like it even more.


Although that would be good idea aswell, it would give canucks WAY too many forwards haha,

Sedins Kassian
Booth Kesler Burrows
Raymond Schroeder Hansen
Lapierre Malhotra Torres

Higgins/Brouwer

Hahah would be nuts.

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#27 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:10 PM

I agree with what others have said, we have way too many Bottom 6 forwards.
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#28 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

I like Torres but I don't miss his stupid penalties.

I'd rather make a deal for a centre or sign Gilbert Brule
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#29 #RyanKesler17

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:30 PM

Miss his big hits
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#30 Teemu Selänne

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:17 AM

Not a bad idea, but with the way Volpatti has been playing, it seems unfair that he should be replaced. If he starts to slip though, a replacement, more proven 4th line winger, like Torres should be looked into.
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