TheRocket18 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I can remember too many times when Gretz simply took his foot off the gas cause he didn't want to make a fool outta the other team. Gretz made everyone on the ice better more so than Mario did in my opinion, so 99 gets the nod for me, also better defensively IMO due to his incredible awareness. Then Orr, then Mario.... then Gordie... and then I'll go Maurice.... cause otherwise I'd have a crappy nick like Lion-Hearted or something.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRocket18 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 wouldn't travel have been harder for wayne as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 99 stockpiled points playing in the WORST division(D & goaltenders) you'll probably ever see. Almost every western team was porous; but the old Smythe(especially our gang), was brutal. Also, due to Semenko, & later Mcsorley noone went NEAR the guy... Orr, Mario, Wayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Slot Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Gretzky was the better player. Why? 1. He still outscored Lemieux, so right there that says it all. Sure Mario had some injuries but so did Gretz. He was never able to beat the scoring records. 2. Lemieux pure talent/scoring people argue was better, yet Wayne still has the record for most goals... 3. Wayne scored more goals in a season 92 than Mario so clearly had the best hands, and more importantly was a better passer. The key difference is while Mario was an incredible talent, he didn't turn players around him into superstars the way Wayne did, Wayne had the ability to make others better, Mario simply created more room for his team because he would take 2-3 guys with him. That's where I see the difference. I watched both their entire careers, never saw Orr....But I'd say Wayne. Mario close second but Wayne was just a guy who you KNEW would change the outcome, Mario, you thought COULD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I gotta go with Super Mario because i heard Gretz was whiney and "untouchable". And Mario was just pure awesome, watching his highlights it's just unreal. Gino has spurts of Super Mario but i don't think Malkin has Lemieux's heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Slot Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I gotta go with Super Mario because i heard Gretz was whiney and "untouchable". And Mario was just pure awesome, watching his highlights it's just unreal. Gino has spurts of Super Mario but i don't think Malkin has Lemieux's heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRocket18 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 there were lots of people showing for Mario as well, its the team involvement and mental aspect that really made 99 best. He did that better than Bobby as well. Too bad we can't ask any of em, cause they're all so soft spoken that they'd vote for the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amish Rake Fighter Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 The Oilers won the Cup after Gretzky left, that's how good the core of that team was. Most of that core was in New York in 1994 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I still maintain Orr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putgolzin Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 A lot is being said of Gretzky's teammates and Lemieux's lack thereof. These remarks display a complete lack of understanding. Sure, Gretzky was surrounded by an all-star cast, but they weren't all-stars when they were all developing together, they were a bunch of kids. Many of us who actually watched hockey in that era are of the opinion that Gretzky made that team great rather than vice versa (of course, in reality it was some of both). The larger misunderstanding has to do with Lemieux's supporting cast. In their cup winning years he was literally surrounded by all-stars. Anyone ever heard of Ron Francis? (pro tip: look up "all time scoring leaders" ... Ron Francis, Jaromir Jagr, Mark Recchi, Paul Coffey, Bryan Trottier all in the Top 20 ... not to mention Larry Murphy, Joe Mullen, Kevin Stevens, RIck Tocchet, etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putgolzin Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Gretzky definitely had a good group of guys along with him to enhance his totals a bit: Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Lowe, etc. Lemieux had Jagr later on, but you don't seem to hear about a lot of the other players he was with as much. I do think Lemieux was the more talented of the two, but they're both great players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amish Rake Fighter Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 You don't seem to hear about Lemieux's teammates? Like who, Coffey? Or like any of the other Hall of Famers that wouldn't support this weird argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sikes Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I still maintain Orr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amish Rake Fighter Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I would agree, except Orr isn't or shouldn't be part of the discussion, it is about who was more skilled, Gretzky or Lemieux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absent Canuck Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think you guys need to talk to Glenn Sather. He will tell you flat out that without Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier turns into a coke junkie and ends up a grinder if he plays at all. Jari Kurri is a 30 goal journeyman . Glenn Anderson ends up a rich mans Mason Raymond. Paul Coffey is the only guy who would have ended up being a star in his own right . He would have never set all the records that he did without Gretzky but he would have been an All Star nonetheless. Mario came in and took a lousy team and made them into a playoff team. But it took the guy 5 years. It didnt happen overnight.Gretzky had the oilers in their second final and winning the cup in 5 years at age 23. When Coffey moved over to Pittsburg it gave Mario a transition game he could have only dreamed of. In his case, the Penguins started to assemble a team around Lemiuex. Gretzky took the guys he had and assembled them into stars on the ice. The Oilers never added any major pieces. They were all raised by Gretzky and Sather. Lemiuex kept adding pieces such as Coffey, then Stephens, then Barasso then Jagr , then Murphy and on and on it goes. So this idea that Lemiuex did something more than Gretzky is backwards. Lemiuex also never broke a single record of Gretzky's . Single season or Career. It think Gretzky holds 64 NHL records. I have no idea how someone says Mario Lemiuex was BETTER than Gretzky but has less cups less awards and never broke a single record of his peer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sikes Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think you guys need to talk to Glenn Sather. He will tell you flat out that without Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier turns into a coke junkie and ends up a grinder if he plays at all. Jari Kurri is a 30 goal journeyman . Glenn Anderson ends up a rich mans Mason Raymond. Paul Coffey is the only guy who would have ended up being a star in his own right . He would have never set all the records that he did without Gretzky but he would have been an All Star nonetheless. Mario came in and took a lousy team and made them into a playoff team. But it took the guy 5 years. It didnt happen overnight.Gretzky had the oilers in their second final and winning the cup in 5 years at age 23. When Coffey moved over to Pittsburg it gave Mario a transition game he could have only dreamed of. In his case, the Penguins started to assemble a team around Lemiuex. Gretzky took the guys he had and assembled them into stars on the ice. The Oilers never added any major pieces. They were all raised by Gretzky and Sather. Lemiuex kept adding pieces such as Coffey, then Stephens, then Barasso then Jagr , then Murphy and on and on it goes. So this idea that Lemiuex did something more than Gretzky is backwards. Lemiuex also never broke a single record of Gretzky's . Single season or Career. It think Gretzky holds 64 NHL records. I have no idea how someone says Mario Lemiuex was BETTER than Gretzky but has less cups less awards and never broke a single record of his peer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think you guys need to talk to Glenn Sather. He will tell you flat out that without Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier turns into a coke junkie and ends up a grinder if he plays at all. Jari Kurri is a 30 goal journeyman . Glenn Anderson ends up a rich mans Mason Raymond. Paul Coffey is the only guy who would have ended up being a star in his own right . He would have never set all the records that he did without Gretzky but he would have been an All Star nonetheless. Mario came in and took a lousy team and made them into a playoff team. But it took the guy 5 years. It didnt happen overnight.Gretzky had the oilers in their second final and winning the cup in 5 years at age 23. When Coffey moved over to Pittsburg it gave Mario a transition game he could have only dreamed of. In his case, the Penguins started to assemble a team around Lemiuex. Gretzky took the guys he had and assembled them into stars on the ice. The Oilers never added any major pieces. They were all raised by Gretzky and Sather. Lemiuex kept adding pieces such as Coffey, then Stephens, then Barasso then Jagr , then Murphy and on and on it goes. So this idea that Lemiuex did something more than Gretzky is backwards. Lemiuex also never broke a single record of Gretzky's . Single season or Career. It think Gretzky holds 64 NHL records. I have no idea how someone says Mario Lemiuex was BETTER than Gretzky but has less cups less awards and never broke a single record of his peer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.DirtyDangles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Ah yes the classic age old debate of who was better. Honestly watching both of their careers from start to finish there is no clear cut winner. Gretzky did things no one had ever seen before in the league. Dangling around whole teams while entire arenas stood there mesmerized by his skill and incredible vision. With almost telepathic passing and pin point accuracy Gretz and his 2000+ points will always be the "The Great One !" Both players turned average team mates into superstars, both could make your jaw drop with. Both had the privilege of playing with Coffey The only thing Gretz really lacked was weight which Mario had. Mario brought a more physical game.That really was the difference. Mario could roll guys over if he wanted to, hell he even would drop the gloves if you pissed him off enough. Mario could have played longer and maybe made an assault on The Great One's numbers if he had protection Wayne had. When you watch game footage of the two it is quite clear the skill they both had on any given night was pretty much equal IMHO. They looked and skated so differently but the results were always the same. POINTS massive amounts of points that literally bled from their bodies to their line mates and into the history books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Bobby Orr on Lemieux: "The most talented player I've ever seen." 1723 Points in 915 games This despite fighting cancer, back issues, and tendinitis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthNinja Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 if Lemieux hadn't gotten sick he could have very well passed Gretzky, we'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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