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#61 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:38 PM

Maybe I am out to lunch on this, but I was under the impression that the oil we are talking about here isn't about fueling vehicles, but more for raw materials for all the stuff that gets shipped back to us.

Don't all of our iPods, cell phones, computers, TVs and millions of other products require oil to make the plastic that is used in production?

Basically everything consumable in our society is tied to oil in some capacity. If the oil tap were actually turned off, or reduced to where it impacted the price of the products it produces, our society would collapse. IF there were a viable alternative, great but there really isn't. I.e. electric cars...cost more to make, use more resources to build, have to dispose of the toxic materials they run on and...where does the electricity come from to power these vehicles?...let's flood the northern rivers and destroy thousands of acres of habitat...sounds cleaner than a pipeline and most people will never see the devastation such a flooding causes.

I would rather see an alternate route that could take to oil to a terminal where loading tankers was safer. However, don't be fooled that changing the route would pacify the First Nations (War Hippy) crowd. As is clear from his comments, this is about power and money wrapped in an environmental flag.

One of the worst environmental abuses I saw involved First Nations maximizing profits off their "ancestral lands". Made possible because they are their own government as WH says and the environmental rules don't apply to them.




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#62 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:41 PM

Yes, what you say is correct. That is how the Feds are balancing the budget; by cutting transfer payments to the provinces.

They're doing exactly what they accused the then Martin Libs of doing. It is really scary.

one economist pretty much flat out said they are going to attempt to balance the budget by not meeting monetary obligations and basically not paying their bills.
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#63 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:52 PM

Basically everything consumable in our society is tied to oil in some capacity. If the oil tap were actually turned off, or reduced to where it impacted the price of the products it produces, our society would collapse. IF there were a viable alternative, great but there really isn't. I.e. electric cars...cost more to make, use more resources to build, have to dispose of the toxic materials they run on and...where does the electricity come from to power these vehicles?...let's flood the northern rivers and destroy thousands of acres of habitat...sounds cleaner than a pipeline and most people will never see the devastation such a flooding causes.

I would rather see an alternate route that could take to oil to a terminal where loading tankers was safer. However, don't be fooled that changing the route would pacify the First Nations (War Hippy) crowd. As is clear from his comments, this is about power and money wrapped in an environmental flag.

One of the worst environmental abuses I saw involved First Nations maximizing profits off their "ancestral lands". Made possible because they are their own government as WH says and the environmental rules don't apply to them.

First off bud, the "war hippy crowd" is the majority.

Secondly, you don't read much of what I write do you? I am all for a pipeline PROVIDED it meets the basic requirements and is economically feasible. My big gripe right now is that they're lying to us, we are getting screwed monetarily and they just keep on telling people a large pack of crap and telling them it is good for them. $1.2 BILLION over 30 years. Fishing makes almost twice that along the coast per year. Running it through the Douglas Channel, 4th most dangerous waterway int he world would save them almost $200 million to not have to run it to Prince Rupert where BC taxpayers have spent over a billion int he last decade upgrading a port which is much much safer to ship through. Whyw ould I be ok with taking all of the risk for none fo the reward.

over 30 years

$1.2 Billion to BC

$36 Billion to Alberta

$40+ billion to the feds.

That seem like a good deal to you? $40 million a year....really?

My issues with the first nations part of this is that they've not contacted them at all. 8 years and have JUST started to meet with them in the last 14 months. The 209 recommendations list, the first nations councils have not even seen this list. There are rules to follow and they are not following them. That is my issue. You said it yourself, horrible things have been done to the first nations of this country int he past, ramming this through without their consent is just another wrong.

One of the worst environmental abuses I saw was a band in Alberta that had signed off to let their land be used, they got rich. A band across the river didn't sign off. They got crap. Nothing but pollution because the other band was upstream and when they tried to reneg on the contract they lost in court and had to watch as this other band basically got pushed out of their ancestral lands because the water was poison, the animals wouldn't come and there was nowhere else to go.

Why i am arguing you, I don't know. I have dealt with your type my whole life. Just because First Nations people have a different set of laws because this is by all records our land. You find fault with everything, we want permission asked. Oh theres not enough $ for you. We want enough money to offset the loss of our culture and way of life. Oh you're money grubbing. we don't want this here, oh you're enviro nuts.

Nothing will make your mindset happy. Just understand simply. There are rules and regulations involved. If they are not 100% met and agreed on by the first nations groups along the proposed route this line does not get built period
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#64 deebs19

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM

As a First Nations person.. I am officially at war with the Canadian, British Columbia AND Alberta governments. Bunch of crooks they are.
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#65 goalie13

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:02 PM

Running it through the Douglas Channel, 4th most dangerous waterway int he world would save them almost $200 million to not have to run it to Prince Rupert where BC taxpayers have spent over a billion int he last decade upgrading a port which is much much safer to ship through. Why would I be ok with taking all of the risk for none of the reward.


Is that the whole reason for going through Kitimat vs Rupert? Based on all the money this project is worth, I would think the $200M is just a drop in the bucket to them.
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#66 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:03 PM

Is that the whole reason for going through Kitimat vs Rupert? Based on all the money this project is worth, I would think the $200M is just a drop in the bucket to them.

$6.5 billion yet they're going to save just over $180 million moving the pipe all the way to Prince Rupert.
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#67 fagin

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:06 PM

As a First Nations person.. I am officially at war with the Canadian, British Columbia AND Alberta governments. Bunch of crooks they are.


Now why would that be ?the only claim to fame the so called First Nations have,is that they were first to arrive or migrate to this part of the North American continent we call Canada.Like wise with the Eskimo or Inuit as they are now known who themselves originated from Outer Mongolia before migrating here and laying claim to the lands we all share.

Edited by fagin, 19 December 2013 - 06:07 PM.

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#68 johngould21

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:09 PM

Don't see a heck of a lot of benefit, for the risk we BC'ers have to take. Yeah we need jobs, but one screw-up, large or small, will be all that it takes to come out with no benefit to us at all.
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#69 Blackberries

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:10 PM

Now why would that be ?the only claim to fame the so called First Nations have,is that they were first to arrive or migrate to this part of the North American continent we call Canada.Like wise with the Eskimo or Inuit as they are now known who themselves originated from Outer Mongolia before migrating here and laying claim to the lands we all share.


Topic relevance how?
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#70 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:10 PM

Opportunity for some of you guys to get some journeyman ticket or so and earn 100K a year minimum. Everybody happy.
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#71 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:11 PM

Topic relevance how?

None. Just sheer ignorance and an underlying dislike for the different treatment people of the blood get.
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It's harder to make a statement and stand by your words than it is to simply dismiss a statement and refuse to make a one of your own.


#72 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:12 PM

Don't see a heck of a lot of benefit, for the risk we BC'ers have to take. Yeah we need jobs, but one screw-up, large or small, will be all that it takes to come out with no benefit to us at all.

not exactly, just check up job openings in the cleanup company and enjoy a good paying job,
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#73 Blackberries

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:13 PM

Opportunity for some of you guys to get some journeyman ticket or so and earn 100K a year minimum. Everybody happy.


Who cares about the future when we can all drive corvettes !!
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#74 King Heffy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:14 PM

not exactly, just check up job openings in the cleanup company and enjoy a good paying job,

You'll be competing with a lot of out of work fishermen.
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#75 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:15 PM

Opportunity for some of you guys to get some journeyman ticket or so and earn 100K a year minimum. Everybody happy.

Nope. As a tradesman I have been on fire about this since the inception of this project.

Enbridge and by extension the Chinese owned companies involved with this pipeline are not in any way shape or form obligated to use Canadian labour to build this line. In fact CNOOC and Nexen are legally allowed to use entirely chinese labourers as long as they are here for less than 6 months and under the guise of "training purposes". See Tumbler Ridge

As for the 560 promised full time jobs, up to 300 can be and will most likely be automated by enbridge after the line is built with 40 employees being stationed in Alberta to monitor and the rest being facility workers in the port with the bulk being auotomated along the length of the line.

The promise of jobs is a farce and has been from the moment Harper signed the FIPA/CIPA
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Vancouver 11th.

 

It's harder to make a statement and stand by your words than it is to simply dismiss a statement and refuse to make a one of your own.


#76 deebs19

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:15 PM

Now why would that be ?the only claim to fame the so called First Nations have,is that they were first to arrive or migrate to this part of the North American continent we call Canada.Like wise with the Eskimo or Inuit as they are now known who themselves originated from Outer Mongolia before migrating here and laying claim to the lands we all share.


My people, first off have always lived in this land. We have archaeological evidence to prove us as far back as 15 000 - 18 000 years. Wow.

Secondly- There are far more First Nations communities out there that heavily depend on the natural environment for food sources then you might realize. Salmon, Prawns, Crabs, Bottom Fish.. etc.. The water base between Vancouver- Victoria and Seattle have already been determind to be too poisoned to eat the food from it.. So why pollute the part of BC that actually hasn't been polluted.

I have been dealing with all the racist people through my small town all day. Let me hear more.
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#77 fagin

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

Topic relevance how?

Just an answer to deebs 19 quote.
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#78 Blackberries

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

You'll be competing with a lot of out of work fishermen.


My dad is a fisherman, and crabber he is extremely worried.
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#79 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

not exactly, just check up job openings in the cleanup company and enjoy a good paying job,

Where do you live again? Have you ever visited the coast on anything besides a ferry? A job with the clean up company? What an a hole comment
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It's harder to make a statement and stand by your words than it is to simply dismiss a statement and refuse to make a one of your own.


#80 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

My people, first off have always lived in this land. We have archaeological evidence to prove us as far back as 15 000 - 18 000 years. Wow.

Secondly- There are far more First Nations communities out there that heavily depend on the natural environment for food sources then you might realize. Salmon, Prawns, Crabs, Bottom Fish.. etc.. The water base between Vancouver- Victoria and Seattle have already been determind to be too poisoned to eat the food from it.. So why pollute the part of BC that actually hasn't been polluted.

I have been dealing with all the racist people through my small town all day. Let me hear more.

Hear Hear.

You and me both. Broken Head Ojibwa from Manitoba myself, sick of the underlying racial tension. Just say it already we know you want to.
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Vancouver 11th.

 

It's harder to make a statement and stand by your words than it is to simply dismiss a statement and refuse to make a one of your own.


#81 fagin

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

None. Just sheer ignorance and an underlying dislike for the different treatment people of the blood get.

History is not ignorance !
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#82 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

First off bud, the "war hippy crowd" is the majority.

Secondly, you don't read much of what I write do you? I am all for a pipeline PROVIDED it meets the basic requirements and is economically feasible. My big gripe right now is that they're lying to us, we are getting screwed monetarily and they just keep on telling people a large pack of crap and telling them it is good for them. $1.2 BILLION over 30 years. Fishing makes almost twice that along the coast per year. Running it through the Douglas Channel, 4th most dangerous waterway int he world would save them almost $200 million to not have to run it to Prince Rupert where BC taxpayers have spent over a billion int he last decade upgrading a port which is much much safer to ship through. Whyw ould I be ok with taking all of the risk for none fo the reward.

over 30 years

$1.2 Billion to BC

$36 Billion to Alberta

$40+ billion to the feds.

That seem like a good deal to you? $40 million a year....really?

My issues with the first nations part of this is that they've not contacted them at all. 8 years and have JUST started to meet with them in the last 14 months. The 209 recommendations list, the first nations councils have not even seen this list. There are rules to follow and they are not following them. That is my issue. You said it yourself, horrible things have been done to the first nations of this country int he past, ramming this through without their consent is just another wrong.

One of the worst environmental abuses I saw was a band in Alberta that had signed off to let their land be used, they got rich. A band across the river didn't sign off. They got crap. Nothing but pollution because the other band was upstream and when they tried to reneg on the contract they lost in court and had to watch as this other band basically got pushed out of their ancestral lands because the water was poison, the animals wouldn't come and there was nowhere else to go.

Why i am arguing you, I don't know. I have dealt with your type my whole life. Just because First Nations people have a different set of laws because this is by all records our land. You find fault with everything, we want permission asked. Oh theres not enough $ for you. We want enough money to offset the loss of our culture and way of life. Oh you're money grubbing. we don't want this here, oh you're enviro nuts.

Nothing will make your mindset happy. Just understand simply. There are rules and regulations involved. If they are not 100% met and agreed on by the first nations groups along the proposed route this line does not get built period

First off bud, the "war hippy crowd" is the majority.

Secondly, you don't read much of what I write do you? I am all for a pipeline PROVIDED it meets the basic requirements and is economically feasible. My big gripe right now is that they're lying to us, we are getting screwed monetarily and they just keep on telling people a large pack of crap and telling them it is good for them. $1.2 BILLION over 30 years. Fishing makes almost twice that along the coast per year. Running it through the Douglas Channel, 4th most dangerous waterway int he world would save them almost $200 million to not have to run it to Prince Rupert where BC taxpayers have spent over a billion int he last decade upgrading a port which is much much safer to ship through. Whyw ould I be ok with taking all of the risk for none fo the reward.

over 30 years

$1.2 Billion to BC

$36 Billion to Alberta

$40+ billion to the feds.

That seem like a good deal to you? $40 million a year....really?

My issues with the first nations part of this is that they've not contacted them at all. 8 years and have JUST started to meet with them in the last 14 months. The 209 recommendations list, the first nations councils have not even seen this list. There are rules to follow and they are not following them. That is my issue. You said it yourself, horrible things have been done to the first nations of this country int he past, ramming this through without their consent is just another wrong.

One of the worst environmental abuses I saw was a band in Alberta that had signed off to let their land be used, they got rich. A band across the river didn't sign off. They got crap. Nothing but pollution because the other band was upstream and when they tried to reneg on the contract they lost in court and had to watch as this other band basically got pushed out of their ancestral lands because the water was poison, the animals wouldn't come and there was nowhere else to go.

Why i am arguing you, I don't know. I have dealt with your type my whole life. Just because First Nations people have a different set of laws because this is by all records our land. You find fault with everything, we want permission asked. Oh theres not enough $ for you. We want enough money to offset the loss of our culture and way of life. Oh you're money grubbing. we don't want this here, oh you're enviro nuts.

Nothing will make your mindset happy. Just understand simply. There are rules and regulations involved. If they are not 100% met and agreed on by the first nations groups along the proposed route this line does not get built period

I Agree the economic arguments appear inadequate to some degree.

As for your comments regarding the type of person I am or the mindset I have, I worked directly with First Nations and as presented an Eagle Feather in gratitude for my contribution to their efforts. I worked directly with their land negotiating people and economic development personnel on deals that involved a number of bands, the Feds, Province and others. Please don't dismiss my comments as just another racist First Nations hater.

Even working with a small number of bands, consensus was never reached and disputes erupted. For you to suggest that all the bands on the route have to agree on all matters related to the pipeline or it doesn't happen is tantamount to killing the deal. I am sure you are well aware of the dynamics of band democracy and how even within an individual band, it can take years for a band to reach consensus on an issue. To have to satisfy the wishes of numerous bands, who, often are working to one-up other bands is an exercise in futility.

I happen to be a Canadian that believes we are all part of a great country and that the laws of the land should apply to all equally. We elect governments on this basis. Often they disappoint, lie, etc but this is the best system to address the needs of the society we are all part of. to allow anyone group veto over a democratically elected government will only lead to alienation and hostility. No one will benefit from that.

I support a pipeline for the reasons I have stated earlier but I do share your concern for many things related to it. In a perfect world, we would all get everything we want. That world does not exist and never has.


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#83 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:18 PM

My dad is a fisherman, and crabber he is extremely worried.

As he should be. Fishing brings in almost $1.4 billion a year to BC. That is more in 1 year than 30 years of "tax benefits"

Ask anyone in Prince William in Alaska how fishing is since Exxon. Or int he Gulf how prawning or crawfishing is. Non existent
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It's harder to make a statement and stand by your words than it is to simply dismiss a statement and refuse to make a one of your own.


#84 Warhippy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:22 PM

I Agree the economic arguments appear inadequate to some degree.

As for your comments regarding the type of person I am or the mindset I have, I worked directly with First Nations and as presented an Eagle Feather in gratitude for my contribution to their efforts. I worked directly with their land negotiating people and economic development personnel on deals that involved a number of bands, the Feds, Province and others. Please don't dismiss my comments as just another racist First Nations hater.

Even working with a small number of bands, consensus was never reached and disputes erupted. For you to suggest that all the bands on the route have to agree on all matters related to the pipeline or it doesn't happen is tantamount to killing the deal. I am sure you are well aware of the dynamics of band democracy and how even within an individual band, it can take years for a band to reach consensus on an issue. To have to satisfy the wishes of numerous bands, who, often are working to one-up other bands is an exercise in futility.

I happen to be a Canadian that believes we are all part of a great country and that the laws of the land should apply to all equally. We elect governments on this basis. Often they disappoint, lie, etc but this is the best system to address the needs of the society we are all part of. to allow anyone group veto over a democratically elected government will only lead to alienation and hostility. No one will benefit from that.

I support a pipeline for the reasons I have stated earlier but I do share your concern for many things related to it. In a perfect world, we would all get everything we want. That world does not exist and never has.

Now that is a reasonable argument and congrats on the bestowing of the feather. That is a big deal

But yes by and large and unanimously, barring the tribe from the Gwai they are all opposed to this as it stands. None of them have really been talked to informed or promised anything. Until the bands have been appeased one and all this does not get built.

And until BC actually gets more than a literal pittance, this is not worth it for us. Especially with the Feds unloading all of these extra costs onto the provinces. From CPP to health care to education. It is getting worrisome. $40 million a year is nothing when that gets eaten up in one week via healthcare.
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Vancouver 11th.

 

It's harder to make a statement and stand by your words than it is to simply dismiss a statement and refuse to make a one of your own.


#85 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:24 PM

I Agree the economic arguments appear inadequate to some degree.

As for your comments regarding the type of person I am or the mindset I have, I worked directly with First Nations and as presented an Eagle Feather in gratitude for my contribution to their efforts. I worked directly with their land negotiating people and economic development personnel on deals that involved a number of bands, the Feds, Province and others. Please don't dismiss my comments as just another racist First Nations hater.

Even working with a small number of bands, consensus was never reached and disputes erupted. For you to suggest that all the bands on the route have to agree on all matters related to the pipeline or it doesn't happen is tantamount to killing the deal. I am sure you are well aware of the dynamics of band democracy and how even within an individual band, it can take years for a band to reach consensus on an issue. To have to satisfy the wishes of numerous bands, who, often are working to one-up other bands is an exercise in futility.

I happen to be a Canadian that believes we are all part of a great country and that the laws of the land should apply to all equally. We elect governments on this basis. Often they disappoint, lie, etc but this is the best system to address the needs of the society we are all part of. to allow anyone group veto over a democratically elected government will only lead to alienation and hostility. No one will benefit from that.

I support a pipeline for the reasons I have stated earlier but I do share your concern for many things related to it. In a perfect world, we would all get everything we want. That world does not exist and never has.

Now, this is a voice of reason. Balanced and logical.
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#86 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

My people, first off have always lived in this land. We have archaeological evidence to prove us as far back as 15 000 - 18 000 years. Wow.

Secondly- There are far more First Nations communities out there that heavily depend on the natural environment for food sources then you might realize. Salmon, Prawns, Crabs, Bottom Fish.. etc.. The water base between Vancouver- Victoria and Seattle have already been determind to be too poisoned to eat the food from it.. So why pollute the part of BC that actually hasn't been polluted.

I have been dealing with all the racist people through my small town all day. Let me hear more.

Have you studied the history of any peoples other than your own? Do you think you are the only society that was invaded, displaced, taken advantage of?

What happened in North America to the First Nations was a travesty but really, was it any worse than what happened in the Highland clearances of Scotland by the British (my ancestors) Genocide and racial discrimination that has taken place for millennia all over the world? How about South Africa? The apartheid regime was brutal. The ANC didn't ask for VETO for the wrongs they suffered, they chose to participate in the democratic process of their country. Living within a democratic society while expecting to be immune from its policies and economics, only drives wedges between us all.


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#87 fagin

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:28 PM

My people, first off have always lived in this land. We have archaeological evidence to prove us as far back as 15 000 - 18 000 years. Wow.

Secondly- There are far more First Nations communities out there that heavily depend on the natural environment for food sources then you might realize. Salmon, Prawns, Crabs, Bottom Fish.. etc.. The water base between Vancouver- Victoria and Seattle have already been determind to be too poisoned to eat the food from it.. So why pollute the part of BC that actually hasn't been polluted.

I have been dealing with all the racist people through my small town all day. Let me hear more.

It is similar to the claims of the Nisga'a claiming to live in the Nass valley for tens of thousands of years.Which 5-10 thousands of years was under nothing but ice,it was only when the ice age started to warm that the Nass valley was created as the ice shifted.Blows a major whole in the claim.
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#88 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:32 PM

As much as I enjoy reading who conquered what, I think our focus here should be how our "peoples" should benefit from this economically. I have no doubt the pipeline will get built. It's only a matter of time.

Edited by RAMBUTANS, 19 December 2013 - 06:33 PM.

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#89 Blackberries

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:36 PM

As much as I enjoy reading who conquered what, I think our focus here should be how our "peoples" should benefit from this economically. I have no doubt the pipeline will get built. It's only a matter of time.


Rather than discuss economic benefit how about you tell me how one cleans an oil spill in the swells of Hectate Straight?

Or a spill that destroys a whole generation of salmon in tributaries inland?


A pipeline through Great Bear Rainforest how is that even remotely right in any ethical world?

The reason Canada is so clean and beautiful is because we resisted doing this crap.

Edited by Blackberries, 19 December 2013 - 06:39 PM.

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#90 King Heffy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:37 PM

As much as I enjoy reading who conquered what, I think our focus here should be how our "peoples" should benefit from this economically. I have no doubt the pipeline will get built. It's only a matter of time.

And we're not benefiting at all according to the numbers already being discussed. Want real benefit? Refine the product in Prince Rupert, creating actual jobs in BC and using a harbour suitable for the tankers transporting the finished result.
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