Scotland Independence?

[Bure to Mogilny]

They shouldnt be alowed to separate and brake the family of united kingdom. Through tough and good they have to stick together cause even now the uk prime minister is makeing clear why they cant separate. Think a bout it. Also the english should be able to vote on scotland braking away. That way everyone is democratic

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

I have to be honest, I'm a little surprised at the pro-Union sentiment here. From what I can gather from my friends in Scotland the YES vote will be very strong.

But if their voters are anything like ours in Canada, only half of them will hit the polls and who knows what will happen....

97% of the eligible population have registered to vote. Over 4.2 million.

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

They shouldnt be alowed to separate and brake the family of united kingdom. Through tough and good they have to stick together cause even now the uk prime minister is makeing clear why they cant separate. Think a bout it. Also the english should be able to vote on scotland braking away. That way everyone is democratic

Oh, well when you put it that way...

Drivel.

[RUPERTKBD]

Oh, well when you put it that way...

Drivel.

Virtually unintelligible drivel. Seriously, is English no longer a pre-requisite in school?

[Offensive Threat]

In another 100 years there will be nothing left of the UK except part of a suburb in London

London alone is worth the rest of England combined. Its value as an economic center is immense worldwide. There are only 2 Alpha++ cities in the world. New York and London. They are vastly more important to the global economy than any other cities and many entire countries.

If Scotland does vote yes they are going to rely on England for support for a fairly long time afterwards. That they will get that support seems to go without saying.

[Dral]

The situations aren't comparable at all. I see lots of Canadians stating this who clearly haven't done much research into Scotland and this referendum and obviously just believe that because we're trying to separate we must be exactly the same.

Scotland has the resources to do it and the money we've contributed to the Westminster government has been poorly invested and essentially pissed away on London and the South East. People always talk about the oil running out, but there's still time to build a fund similar to that of Norway's instead of wasting it like the British government have over the last few decades. There are still estimates of huge oil fields off of the West Coast as well, but at the moment the UK government won't allow for any exploration there as they base their Trident nuclear weapons base there (pissing away billions. Literally billions on weapons that aren't needed and will never be used). When the oil runs out (still a few decades away yet) Scotland has massive renewable potential and will be a net exporter of energy even after the oil and gas is gone.

Right now we don't get the government we vote for (the Conservatives are in power despite only winning one seat in Scotland ONE), we don't get back what we put in, we're fed up of being dragged into expensive, immoral and unnecessary wars, and we are constantly told that we won't be able to do it alone without being given any concrete reasons as to why (apart from the cliched "best of both worlds" BS). This new offer of extra powers is simply the No Campaign hitting the panic button because they can feel Scotland slipping out of their grasp.

It isn't too late to do something with it. We might not ever become like Norway but we can set aside our earnings and invest them responsibly. Under the current government we can't do that.

Not saying I have an opinion one way or the other... but what on earth makes you think an independent Scottish government wouldn't piss away all your tax money as well?

[Phil_314]

Economy what?

From Wikipedia:

Traditionally, the Scottish economy has been dominated by heavy industry underpinned by shipbuilding in Glasgow, coal mining and steel industries. Petroleum related industries associated with the extraction of North Sea oil have also been important employers from the 1970s, especially in the north east of Scotland.

De-industrialisation during the 1970s and 1980s saw a shift from a manufacturing focus towards a more service-oriented economy. Edinburgh is the financial services centre of Scotland, with many large finance firms based there, including: Lloyds Banking Group (owners of HBOS); the Government owned Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Life. Edinburgh was ranked 15th in the list of world financial centres in 2007, but fell to 37th in 2012, following damage to its reputation,^[174]and in 2014 was ranked 64th.<sup>[175]

Whisky is probably the best known of Scotland's manufactured products. Exports increased by 87% in the decade to 2012
and were valued at £4.3 billion in 2013, which was 85% of Scotland's food and drink exports. It supports around 10,000 jobs
directly and 25,000 indirectly. It may contribute £400-682 million to Scotland, rather than several billion pounds, as more
than 80% of whisky produced is owned by non-Scottish companies. Tourism is also widely recognised as a key contributor
to the Scottish economy. A briefing published in 2002 by the Scottish Parliament Information Centre (SPICe) for the Scottish
Parliament's Enterprise and Life Long Learning Committee stated that tourism accounted for up to 5% of GDP and 7.5% of
employment.</sup>

So,
1. Scotland's no longer as industrialized as before, more reliant on tourism (however, I have a feeling that a decent chunk of that is due to ties with Britain -- sorry Scottish Canuck and any other Scots of here I may have offended).

2. Banks said they would leave if Scotland became independent so that bit of industry would be gone.

3. Would they rely primarily on whisky, along with whatever if left of the mining/ oil/ manufacturing industries? Would that even be enough to carry an economy?

Curious as to what Scots have to say on this matter, because it's undoubtedly an important issue.

[Jägermeister]

Virtually unintelligible drivel. Seriously, is English no longer a pre-requisite in school?

It isn't. Trust me.

[ckamo]

Economy what?

From Wikipedia:

So,

1. Scotland's no longer as industrialized as before, more reliant on tourism (however, I have a feeling that a decent chunk of that is due to ties with Britain -- sorry Scottish Canuck and any other Scots of here I may have offended).

2. Banks said they would leave if Scotland became independent so that bit of industry would be gone.

3. Would they rely primarily on whisky, along with whatever if left of the mining/ oil/ manufacturing industries? Would that even be enough to carry an economy?

Curious as to what Scots have to say on this matter, because it's undoubtedly an important issue.

Personal preference, but I would visit Scotland over England/the rest of the UK 10/10 times.

Regarding banks, I'm not an expert on Scottish Independence by any means...but I did watch this yesterday and was quite amused

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHb_pBFGNEQ

EDIT: Apologies, the above video plays the clip twice. It's not actually 14 minutes long.

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

Not saying I have an opinion one way or the other... but what on earth makes you think an independent Scottish government wouldn't piss away all your tax money as well?

That's a fair point. Nobody can guarantee that. But at least with an independent Scottish government we'd have control over our spending, and the decisions would be made by Scottish politicians based in Scotland who have a better idea of what's best for Scotland, rather than the Westminster elite who frankly don't have a clue.

I'll take the word of the SNP over a Tory government every day of the week.

Economy what?

From Wikipedia:

So,

1. Scotland's no longer as industrialized as before, more reliant on tourism (however, I have a feeling that a decent chunk of that is due to ties with Britain -- sorry Scottish Canuck and any other Scots of here I may have offended).

2. Banks said they would leave if Scotland became independent so that bit of industry would be gone.

3. Would they rely primarily on whisky, along with whatever if left of the mining/ oil/ manufacturing industries? Would that even be enough to carry an economy?

Curious as to what Scots have to say on this matter, because it's undoubtedly an important issue.

1. I don't see how tourism will be affected by a Yes vote. It won't make it any more difficult for English citizens to visit and Scotland attracts visitors from across the globe anyway. I don't understand your point about the service industry either.

2. RBS and other banks said they'd register in England. That doesn't equate to job losses and won't affect banking services. Tax revenues wouldn't move to England either. Where an office is registered doesn't affect that. The media coverage of this issue has been nothing short of pathetic (although what else do you expect from the Biased Broadcasting Corporation and the likes of the Daily Mail?).

3. Scotland has more than enough to carry an economy. In terms of GDP per capita Scotland is ranked 14th in the world. That's higher than the UK as a whole and a host of other countries who manage on their own. We're entitled to something like 90% of the UK's oil and gas reserves, with further exploration proposed off of the west coast and off of Shetland. We have the highest renewable potential of any country in Europe. We're energy rich but we're constantly told by politicians in England that this isn't a good thing. We must be the only country that's natural resources are portrayed as a curse.

We have food and drink exports (of which whisky is a big part and always will be. The demand will always be there. I think we're Europe's largest salmon producer as well. And speaking of fishing, it isn't the industry it once was but it still contributes money towards our economy). We still have manufacturing, despite you downplaying it above. We excel in the chemical, life sciences, creative and multimedia industries. Edinburgh and Glasgow are major financial centres that aren't going to disappear overnight. We've been generating more tax per head than anywhere in the UK and we still don't get it all back.

Don't get me wrong, things won't be perfect where everyone's happy with absolutely everything and everyone's wandering around with a permanent smile on their face. There are issues to iron out following a yes vote. But things certainly won't be worse than they are now.

[Dral]

That's a fair point. Nobody can guarantee that. But at least with an independent Scottish government we'd have control over our spending, and the decisions would be made by Scottish politicians based in Scotland who have a better idea of what's best for Scotland, rather than the Westminster elite who frankly don't have a clue.

I'll take the word of the SNP over a Tory government every day of the week.

Corruption and incompetence isn't reserved only for the British government... you could easily argue that Scottish politicians have a better idea of how to frack over the Scottish people...

again, not saying Scotland shouldn't be independent (would be pretty hypocritical of any Canadian to say that, unless they also believed Canada, Australia, India should all go back to the UK)... but I think it's a pipe dream for you to believe things will be a lot better if it happens

[alfstonker]

Scotland is a welfare-state piglet suckling off of the teat of a greater welfare-state sow that is the United Kingdom. But at least the United Kingdom has a part called England, more specifically the City of London, that can play the game of financial engineering at a Premier League-esque international level that keeps the entire nation afloat...sort of.

Other than exports of Scotch whisky and what remains of the North Sea oil fields, if Scotland secedes, Scotland will fail economically and collapse, because that is what welfare states do best.

My great uncle is from Scotland and he is back there just now and when I spoke to him he told me something quite different from that CanadianLoonie.

He said the Scottish GDP is higher than anywhere else in the UK except London and the same as the rest of the UK as a whole. He also said that Scotland has paid more into the UK than they have received for the last 30 years.

I don't know if that is true or not but if what you say is true why according to him are the UK politicians making so many threats and telling so many lies in order to keep Scotland.

After 2 minutes on google I found this. It seems to make a nonsense of what you are saying.

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/

[alfstonker]

They shouldnt be alowed to separate and brake the family of united kingdom. Through tough and good they have to stick together cause even now the uk prime minister is makeing clear why they cant separate. Think a bout it. Also the english should be able to vote on scotland braking away. That way everyone is democratic

They were/are a different country. Surely they are entitled to make up their own mind. Would you give all your money to your brother and let him run your house

"but I think it's a pipe dream for you to believe things will be a lot better if it happens."

Is that not why every country chooses independence? I am of Scottish decent and it is being discussed in my family at present. It is amazing that Scotland has large quantities of oil and yet.

"170 000 (17%) children in Scotland live in poverty in Scotland (before housing costs) and 220 000 (or more than 1 in 5) children living in poverty (after housing costs).130 000 (13%) children in Scotland live in low income and material deprivation.

At least 50 000 more children will be living in poverty by 2020.

Would you not wish to take matters into your own hands in these circumstances if this is the result of being governed by England?

[Guest]

Scotland is a welfare-state piglet suckling off of the teat of a greater welfare-state sow that is the United Kingdom. But at least the United Kingdom has a part called England, more specifically the City of London, that can play the game of financial engineering at a Premier League-esque international level that keeps the entire nation afloat...sort of.

Other than exports of Scotch whisky and what remains of the North Sea oil fields, if Scotland secedes, Scotland will fail economically and collapse, because that is what welfare states do best.

What a bunch of nonsense. The broad ideology employed to every scenario is tiresome and lazy in my opinion.

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WWtRmSJFLs#t=235

Good example of the fear mongering that we have to put up with from the "unbiased and impartial" British media.

[ckamo]

^ Yup. The British media has been everything but unbiased through this whole process. To the point where I was mostly neutral to begin with, but the fear mongering by the media really has pushed me towards hoping the Yes vote comes out on top.

Also:

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

The economy underpins every aspect of Scotland’s future. The choices that any independent Scottish Government makes, and whether those choices will be easier or harder than those faced by a devolved Scottish Government, will be dictated by how much money is available.

For that reason, the UK government and the No campaign desperately want you to believe that Scotland would be poorer as an independent country, and that it would therefore have to raise taxes and/or cut public spending to protect services.

But that simply isn’t true. In fact, it’s not even close - the Financial Times stated unequivocally in February 2014:

"An independent Scotland could expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK." Scotland subsidises the UK by billions of pounds every year, and has done for many decades. On the rare occasions when it’s forced by Parliamentary rules to tell the truth, the UK government admits that fact plainly.

On 27 March 1997, the Herald newspaper reported:

“Mr William Waldegrave, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, has been forced to concede figures in Commons questioning in recent months, which show that if Scotland’s share of North Sea revenues had been allocated since 1979, then the net flow in favour of the Treasury from north of the Border ran to £27bn.”

The Herald went on in the same article to note that Mr Waldegrave (the 1997 ministerial equivalent of Danny Alexander) later admitted to the House that the real figure was even higher, at £31 billion over the 18-year period.

The extent of Scotland’s wealth after the discovery of North Sea oil in the 1970s was so great that successive Labour and Conservative governments hid it from the Scottish people for three decades. When a 1975 analysis for the UK government by economist Professor Gavin McCrone was finally made public in 2005 after a Freedom Of Information request, The Independent newspaper reported:

"An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be ‘embarrassing’.

Scotland’s currency ‘would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor.’ From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and ‘this situation could last for a very long time into the future."

In short, the oil would put the British boot, after centuries of resentment, firmly on the foot standing north of the border.

Within days of its receipt at Westminster in 1974, Professor McCrone’s document was judged as incendiary and classified as secret. It would be sat upon for the next thirty years.”

The pro-Union economist Professor Brian Ashcroft (husband of former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander) calculated in July 2013 that had Scotland been independent since 1981, it would by now have an accumulated basic budget surplus of at least £68 billion. The real figure, including interest and other benefits, would likely be an “oil fund” of well over £100 billion.

But instead of that huge surplus, Scotland is part of a UK with a massive £1.4 trillion debt - our population share of the debt is approximately £118 billion.

In short, membership of the UK for the last 32 years has left Scotland anywhere from £180 billion to £250 billion worse off than it would have been as an independent country. Thanks to Westminster we’re massively in debt, where we should have had money in the bank.

There’s no point crying over spilt milk - that’s all in the past. (Although the vast subsidy Scots have paid to the UK could still play a big part in reducing how much of the UK’s debt Scotland takes on in independence negotiations - see Chapter 5) But the fundamental economic facts making Scotland stronger than the UK are the same now as they’ve been for the last 40 years, as the Financial Times observed.

Unionists don’t care about that. In February 2014 the Labour MP for Lanark and Hamilton East, Jim Hood, stood up in the House Of Commons and said:

“If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically etc, I would still be against breaking away from the Union.” (and video)

But Scottish Labour MPs can afford not to care. They’ve got safe jobs for life (Jim Hood has a 13,000 majority and has been in place for 27 years) and they get to decide their own salaries. If you’re living in Scotland and you DON’T have an MP’s lavish expense account and gold-plated pension to fall back on, you probably do care whether you and your family would be better off or not.

Scotland can’t afford to keep paying tens of billions of pounds over and above its fair share. The simple fact is that by any reasonable calculation, and even BEFORE the effect of different policies (such as scrapping Trident) is taken into account, Scotland will have more money as an independent country than it does as part of the UK.

http://theweebluebook.com

Worth a read if you want the Yes side's point of view.

[Caledonian Canuck]

I am happy to endorse the views of my fellow Scot, Scottish Canuck, with regards to next week's referendum.

The lies and scaremongering over the past few weeks, being orchestrated by Westminster, has been nothing short of disgraceful.

Fortunately, I feel the vast majority of Scots can see through the deception and will not be bullied by the "Better Together" campaigners into voting against Scottish Independence. Although they call themselves Better Together, it is laughable that they rarely seem to be able to agree with one another. They all seem to have different hidden agendas for keeping Scotland within the Union.

For decades, if not centuries, Westminster has taken Scotland for granted. We contribute more to Westminster each year than they decide to return to us. If we become Independent, we will be able to direct our own budget as we see fit.

I work as a Civil Servant (i.e. a British Government employee)

My wife is a Teacher

My daughter is a Lawyer

My step-daughter is a Police Officer

My step-son in law is a Car Mechanic

We will all be voting yes next Thursday.

There is no misguided sense of nationalism, no hatred of England (or Wales or Northern Ireland), no delusions of grandeur. We have all discussed the situation calmly and rationally and we all agree that Scotland will be best served with its own Government, as a fully Independent Nation.

Some parts of the media have attempted to portray the Referendum as Scots being anti - English, which simply isn't true. Most of us have friends and family who are English. Next Thursday is about Scotland wanting to free itself from the stranglehold of Westminster and to finally be able to decide our own future, instead of it being foisted upon us by a Government the people of Scotland didn't vote for.

[Mr. Ambien]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WWtRmSJFLs#t=235

Good example of the fear mongering that we have to put up with from the "unbiased and impartial" British media.

Loved the latter third of that video.. dumb broad interviewing him.

[Bure to Mogilny]

They were/are a different country. Surely they are entitled to make up their own mind. Would you give all your money to your brother and let him run your house

"but I think it's a pipe dream for you to believe things will be a lot better if it happens."

Is that not why every country chooses independence? I am of Scottish decent and it is being discussed in my family at present. It is amazing that Scotland has large quantities of oil and yet.

"170 000 (17%) children in Scotland live in poverty in Scotland (before housing costs) and 220 000 (or more than 1 in 5) children living in poverty (after housing costs).130 000 (13%) children in Scotland live in low income and material deprivation.

At least 50 000 more children will be living in poverty by 2020.

Would you not wish to take matters into your own hands in these circumstances if this is the result of being governed by England?

Pretty sure is not true and u need to know that the prime minister of UK just went to scotland to explaine why the UK should remain united free and together instead of this hate and separation atempts by some ungrateful Scottish people. I have family who had scottish workers working for them and there good people and they all want to stay with the UK family and now the prime minister is confirming it that they need to stay. Its whats good for the entire UK