Do you buy into what management is selling?

[Rob_Zepp]

The whining and negativity in this thread is awesome!   If anyone cannot see a team that was far more competitive this year prior to some devastating injuries and some mediocre goaltending is willfully oblivious.   However, forgetting that, most pundits would have rated the Canucks prospect pool as at/near bottom of entire NHL when Benning was hired.   You now are top 10 and trending higher.  You had prospects having all nature of great years in their respective leagues to the likes your franchise has never known.

 

i most certainly hope that at least the whiners will have the decency to go away when the team cliimb back up the cycle sooner than later.   

[Bertuzzi44ever]

21 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

The whining and negativity in this thread is awesome!   If anyone cannot see a team that was far more competitive this year prior to some devastating injuries and some mediocre goaltending is willfully oblivious.   However, forgetting that, most pundits would have rated the Canucks prospect pool as at/near bottom of entire NHL when Benning was hired.   You now are top 10 and trending higher.  You had prospects having all nature of great years in their respective leagues to the likes your franchise has never known.

 

i most certainly hope that at least the whiners will have the decency to go away when the team cliimb back up the cycle sooner than later.   

You expect a forum on a 30th placed sports team sucking and just wiining its first game in 8, to be HAPPY?

 

Prospects are just that, prospects. It's hit and miss. And that's then. I like to live in the now as do others.

 

You talk about being a top 10 prospect team, sure we are but Buffalo and Arizona. AND Edmonton were in Hockey's Future's TOP 5 the last four years.

 

Where all three of those teams, oh right, right beside us.

[Rob_Zepp]

7 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44ever said:

You expect a forum on a 30th placed sports team sucking and just wiining its first game in 8, to be HAPPY?

 

Prospects are just that, prospects. It's hit and miss. And that's then. I like to live in the now as do others.

 

You talk about being a top 10 prospect team, sure we are but Buffalo and Arizona. AND Edmonton were in Hockey's Future's TOP 5 the last four years.

 

Where all three of those teams, oh right, right beside us.

Nope, I expect them to be adults and understand the patience that goes when you start with zero in the cupboard.   I expect people to see the trend of development in core players and the excellent results for many of the prospects.   

 

I expect maturity of thought and expectation.

 

I clearly expect too much from some.    

[Gaudette Celly]

24 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Nope, I expect them to be adults and understand the patience that goes when you start with zero in the cupboard.   I expect people to see the trend of development in core players and the excellent results for many of the prospects.   

 

I expect maturity of thought and expectation.

But... that sounds like effort.  Imma just emote!

[Baggins]

4 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Nope, I expect them to be adults and understand the patience that goes when you start with zero in the cupboard.   I expect people to see the trend of development in core players and the excellent results for many of the prospects.   

 

I expect maturity of thought and expectation.

 

I clearly expect too much from some.    

sadly this is the world we live in......

 

 

[Baggins]

20 hours ago, IBatch said:

There is nothing wrong with calling it like it is.  I mentioned a week ago that it's impossible to tell if management actually believed they would be competitive by adding depth place holders, and going with our goalies, or if it was all just a masterful stroke of stealth tanking.  Benning has a good poker face when they pan to him during a game we are losing, but Linden looks like he's taking it a little personally (all the losing.)

 

For me the moment he goes with a very good NHL goalie, like Miller, to back-up Demko or vice versa, that's when hes planning to guide us out of tank mode.   I'd don't think he will do it next year, nor should he with Hughes as the prize.  Signing the Sedins?  Not sure that will help either.

At this point in the rebuild it wouldn't be wise to look at high quality ufa's. Quality UFA's are looking for term and money. Even signing a 27 year old he'd be into his 30's by the time this team is contending. At this point it's better to go with place holders as more and more younger guys come on to the team. Then go for quality UFA's for deficient areas to push us into contention. This was the transition year. It made more sense to go with the goalies we had and add low cost low term UFA's to fill holes.

 

I do think this team could have been competitive this season (and the previous two) had it not been for the quantity and quality of injuries. Two or three game injuries are one thing but we seem to keep getting those 2 to 6 week (and longer) injuries to key players. Those types of injuries have a greater effect on rebuilding teams because they just don't have the depth to overcome them. Even good teams would find it difficult not to free fall with 2/3 of their top line out for an extended period.

[spook007]

9 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

The whining and negativity in this thread is awesome!   If anyone cannot see a team that was far more competitive this year prior to some devastating injuries and some mediocre goaltending is willfully oblivious.   However, forgetting that, most pundits would have rated the Canucks prospect pool as at/near bottom of entire NHL when Benning was hired.   You now are top 10 and trending higher.  You had prospects having all nature of great years in their respective leagues to the likes your franchise has never known.

 

i most certainly hope that at least the whiners will have the decency to go away when the team cliimb back up the cycle sooner than later.   

Fat chance that'll happen.... They'll just find something else to complain about.

[RogersTowell]

10 hours ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

He doesn't mention it, but we also had an extremely-easy first couple months.  Before the season even started, I warned you guys that we'd be doing somewhat well early on, and then be awful by the end.  The NHL schedule-maker went easy on us (he probably didn't want us eliminated from the playoffs in November).   Of course, we started getting injured at right about the time our schedule started getting harder, so everyone blamed the injuries, not the schedule where the blame really deserved to be placed.

Look, your analytics guy can say what he wants out of context and come up with silly conclusions based on poor assumptions if he likes, but to ignore the effects of injuries is absurd.  Until November, the team was healthy and winning.  After that they struggled.  The last couple of months there have been 8 starters out of the line up.  Guess what?  I also predicted a good start and a drop in performance by the trade deadline.  My rationale?  Same as it's been most years lately.  This team has more man games lost to injuries than any other team in the league.  To say that injuries weren't a major factor is incredibly naive.  I'm not saying that without the injuries the Canucks are a cup contender, but they'd likely be a bubble team for the playoffs.  Virtually no team in the league can compete with a third of it's starters on IR.

[Rob_Zepp]

3 minutes ago, RogersTowell said:

Look, your analytics guy can say what he wants out of context and come up with silly conclusions based on poor assumptions if he likes, but to ignore the effects of injuries is absurd.  Until November, the team was healthy and winning.  After that they struggled.  The last couple of months there have been 8 starters out of the line up.  Guess what?  I also predicted a good start and a drop in performance by the trade deadline.  My rationale?  Same as it's been most years lately.  This team has more man games lost to injuries than any other team in the league.  To say that injuries weren't a major factor is incredibly naive.  I'm not saying that without the injuries the Canucks are a cup contender, but they'd likely be a bubble team for the playoffs.  Virtually no team in the league can compete with a third of it's starters on IR.

Not a team in the league will win with 2/3 of their first line and two of their top 4 D out of the line up.   Horvat playing less than a full season hurts when he is the defacto 1C on the team.  Sure, win a game here and there but no way a playoff team.   Add inconsistent goaltending (ask Chicago, Calgary, Edmonton etc. about that) and not a remote hope on top of the injuries.   Vanek was top 2 or 3 in scoring.   Not an excuse but a reality.   

 

When healthy, this  year's team was far more competitive than past few seasons.   Problem remained a lack of depth that is largely as there was little home grown depth after only a few years after having zero depth.   However, the depth is coming.   Look at the prospect pool.  Not all of them will succeed but even if you use modest historic success rates for prospects across the NHL, this group will provide some excellent players at the NHL level.   Further, they will get probably 2 if not 3 good prospects again at this draft.   

 

As I have said before, those who want to pretend this season is the same as the past two are either willfully blind or purposefully so.   The latter can be quite easy to spot and include the usual suspects and some new accounts that simply crop up for one purpose.   

 

@RogersTowell, hang in there - those who see the progress and see the depth of the pool developing are those that will better enjoy the next few years as things emerge.   

[kloubek]

18 hours ago, IBatch said:

Nobody that follows this team can question their loyalty and devotion to fitness, being a consummate professional etc.  I think they did better this year to a large degree because of better usage by Green, match ups, an improved PP (thank you Boeser/Vanek).  They have both lost foot speed, otherwise it would be hard to tell when the ideal time is to pack it in.

 

Im not worried about it being a contract year.  Thornton and Marleau both got huge contracts given their age, it's difficult to tell what value the team will determine is fair.  Anywhere from 3-5.5 million is my guess, they've done enough to earn that, it would also be great if they didn't push the NMC, and agreed to a limited NTC with perhaps 8-10 teams, then it's possible we could add picks next TDL.

 

We could also just go with the kids.  NJ played six rookies this year, and most of us are familiar with TO doing the same two years ago.

 

Either way, unless we pick up a true first string goalie, that can post a .920 or better SP, and draft number one defenseman who can step right in and take over Edlers spot next year we bound for basement dwelling again.  Which is ok, exactly what we need....

 

Its possible we push for either OEL or Karlsson next year too.  Especially if we draft Dahlin.  The soul of the next core will likely be determined this draft, odds are high we are looking at three consecutive cores with a heavy European influence.   Horvat is boss though.  Or at least he should be IMO.

 

Draft day is going to epic this year.  One of the most impactful ever.   We have good odds of drafting a true number one defenseman. 

I agree - they are so hard working, and there are obviously many possibilities I left out of my list... Green's usage of them being the obvious absence on that list.  

I feel the high range you suggested would be far too much.  I think if they do come back we may be able to expect more of last year's production as opposed to this year with them being one year older.  Besides that, while they are still producing they are quite the defensive liability and their +/- is the worst on the team - even though they are largely deployed in the offensive zone.  Also, it would make management's life a lot easier if the Sedins were to be the gentlemen they are, and take a seriously low contract figure.  If they did that, it would allow Benning to go into the UFA pool to pick up a guy like OEL or Carlson and would improve the team immediately for their last year, as well as set us up for the next few years ahead.  I do not, however, expect them to sign a contract without a clause. If they were asked to do so, it is obvious Benning would try to move them at the deadline and if they don't want that, they should not be forced to deal with it.  They've been Canucks all their life, and they might as well retire as such.

 

I also agree that our goaltending sucks and next year won't even have a chance to be a playoff year without a better goalie in net. But at the end of the day, I really don't care too much what happens next year.  It's the year after when the results of our rebuild will truly start to show, so if we tank one more season for another high pick I can live with that.

[RogersTowell]

11 hours ago, Bertuzzi44ever said:

I also find it hilarious you attribute this bump to WHINERS during losing streaks....because of injuries.

 

You need some reading comprehension assistance.  I attribute the WHINERS to the losing streak.  I attribute the losing streak to the injuries and a lack of depth - something management has been addressing but is still nowhere near the level of the Jets for example.

 

11 hours ago, Bertuzzi44ever said:

 

He has A LOT to prove. As of now it looks like the best case scenario is Kassian for Jake...unless he finally ya know..scores sometime.

Jake is coming along.  His floor is Kassian.  He's faster and more skilled and is learning the game at the NHL level.  Each year he gets better.

 

11 hours ago, Bertuzzi44ever said:

 

Tell me, where is Boston, Toronto and WInnipeg? There injuries are FAR, FAR worse then ours. Bergeron, McAvoy, Debrusk, Matthews, (until todayu) Anderson, Zaitsev, Laine, Schiefele, that D is always crippled.

 

Worse?  No.  Not even close.  When you combine them, sure, but that's a silly comparison.  Even those teams would struggle with the roster depletion we've seen at times.  We suffer more because the prospect cupboards were bare and they are just getting filled up again.  Still a year or two to go in terms of prospect development and drafting to get to the depth and starting roster calibre of those teams.  I don't think anyone said we were as good as those teams anyway, though, so no idea why you make the comparison.  Bubble team when healthy, but that's better than the last couple of years.

 

Next year, our big issue is going to be how to fit some young guys who are ready into the roster.  We'll have more young talent than ever before ready or almost ready to break in to the league and in the meantime we'll have place holder guys with a year or so left on their contracts (Gagner, Del Zotto, etc).  The prospect pipeline is looking good.  Pettersson, Demko, Gaudette, Juolevi, Lind and much more.  The problem for right now is that none of these young guys is reasonably available to join the team right now.  Likely training camp is the next time we see them.  The silver lining on this season is the draft, and that's OK.  I'm not fully embracing team tank, but given the injury and depth situation, that's as good as it gets this season.

 

 

[RogersTowell]

15 hours ago, CupIsComing said:

I have been a fanatic of this team since 1974, through thick and thin. I have every right to be dissatisfied with the current on-ice product, seeming lack of strategy this mgmt group displays, and our meager relative number of good prospects and future draft picks.

 

I will still be here in two years after it has been bad even longer. Will you?

I've got 4 years on you.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by lack of strategy.  Some stop gap players to make the young guys earn a spot on the team the right way and not be gifted a spot and become entitled brats.  Draft some future superstars (Brock, Elias).  The prospect pipeline is better than it's been in over a decade.  We aren't better in the standings, but with better luck on injuries, we're a better team.  We're a year or two away from the playoffs, and probably 3 years away from being highly competitive.  If you've been a fan since '74, you've seen this before, it takes time to get back to the top and we're going in the right direction.

[IBatch]

41 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I agree - they are so hard working, and there are obviously many possibilities I left out of my list... Green's usage of them being the obvious absence on that list.  

I feel the high range you suggested would be far too much.  I think if they do come back we may be able to expect more of last year's production as opposed to this year with them being one year older.  Besides that, while they are still producing they are quite the defensive liability and their +/- is the worst on the team - even though they are largely deployed in the offensive zone.  Also, it would make management's life a lot easier if the Sedins were to be the gentlemen they are, and take a seriously low contract figure.  If they did that, it would allow Benning to go into the UFA pool to pick up a guy like OEL or Carlson and would improve the team immediately for their last year, as well as set us up for the next few years ahead.  I do not, however, expect them to sign a contract without a clause. If they were asked to do so, it is obvious Benning would try to move them at the deadline and if they don't want that, they should not be forced to deal with it.  They've been Canucks all their life, and they might as well retire as such.

 

I also agree that our goaltending sucks and next year won't even have a chance to be a playoff year without a better goalie in net. But at the end of the day, I really don't care too much what happens next year.  It's the year after when the results of our rebuild will truly start to show, so if we tank one more season for another high pick I can live with that.

Everything you said makes sense.  I'd like it if the Sedins went for a cup and we picked up a couple picks but I also know it's a pipe dream.  It would sure make things interesting if we did sign OEL or Carlsson, both are blue chippers and instantly would be our best D.  It would also happen before the Sedins get resigned, which would limit the money available...

[RogersTowell]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

@RogersTowell, hang in there - those who see the progress and see the depth of the pool developing are those that will better enjoy the next few years as things emerge.   

Preaching to the choir, brother.  Training camp will be terrific this year.

[kloubek]

23 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Everything you said makes sense.  I'd like it if the Sedins went for a cup and we picked up a couple picks but I also know it's a pipe dream.  It would sure make things interesting if we did sign OEL or Carlsson, both are blue chippers and instantly would be our best D.  It would also happen before the Sedins get resigned, which would limit the money available...

That might work to our advantage, really. Sign Carlson or OEL, then tell the Sedins we only have X amount of money for you.  Yes or no?  They couldn't be too upset; it is their decision to think about their future after the season.

[mll]

27 minutes ago, kloubek said:

That might work to our advantage, really. Sign Carlson or OEL, then tell the Sedins we only have X amount of money for you.  Yes or no?  They couldn't be too upset; it is their decision to think about their future after the season.

Listening to Benning and Linden it's the other way around - Sedins decide and then they make their next move.  It should be sorted out well before free agency.

 

MacLellan says that they want to sign Carlson and that he wants to sign too - it's really going to depend on how much he wants.  OEL still has a year left on his contract - would need to trade for him.

 

 

 

[aGENT]

44 minutes ago, kloubek said:

That might work to our advantage, really. Sign Carlson or OEL, then tell the Sedins we only have X amount of money for you.  Yes or no?  They couldn't be too upset; it is their decision to think about their future after the season.

As much as even I've been on the sign Kane and maybe a guy like Mike Green train (and would not be opposed to the right, shorter term deals for either/both), I'd not be shocked to see us largely avoid the UFA market and use the cap space to take on decent but perhaps underachieving players from cap strapped teams (along with the appropriate picks/prospects for helping them out).

 

12 minutes ago, mll said:

Listening to Benning and Linden it's the other way around - Sedins decide and then they make their next move.  It should be sorted out well before free agency.

 

What management tells the press/public is not necessarily the same thing is what will happen FWIW. But yes, I'd imagine we have a better idea of both the team and the Sedins intentions by the draft.

[Gaudette Celly]

16 hours ago, CupIsComing said:

What you are missing here is that it has already been three (almost four) years since TL&JB took over. The on-ice product is worse despite they claiming that a "turnaround will be quick" and that we will "be competitive" every season. So what you are really saying is be patient for at least 5 (6) years or screw off. I think that is unreasonable, and that it will be even more than 5 (6) years until this team is competitive (not all prospects will shine, still no defense hope). Add in that I have been waiting since June 2011 for a rebuild and still haven't seen it. I know that has nothing to do with this current management group, but it adds context to the criticism of impatience. I don't hate TL&JB, but it is apparent that they are not being effective. I don't see how that can be denied (and no, claiming our current prospect pool as proof of a good job doesn't cut it...those players have proved nothing yet).

 

Furthermore...band-wagoners?! Do really believe that there are any band wagoners left on this board right now after three dismal seasons? Do you even know what that term means? I have been a fanatic of this team since 1974, through thick and thin. I have every right to be dissatisfied with the current on-ice product, seeming lack of strategy this mgmt group displays, and our meager relative number of good prospects and future draft picks.

 

I will still be here in two years after it has been bad even longer. Will you?

Question -- at what other time(s) have you seen a better plan for the organization and actual progress of that plan in the history of the franchise?  It seems you don't even understand what the plan is at this point, despite it being nearly 4 years along.  FTR, like RT I've been following the team at least as long.

[JM_]

33 minutes ago, mll said:

Listening to Benning and Linden it's the other way around - Sedins decide and then they make their next move.  It should be sorted out well before free agency.

 

MacLellan says that they want to sign Carlson and that he wants to sign too - it's really going to depend on how much he wants.  OEL still has a year left on his contract - would need to trade for him.

with the cap guaranteed to go up I don't see Carlson hitting the open market, they will be able to afford him and after that the rest of their needs are bottom 6 or bottom pairing D so I think they will find a way to make an extension work. I'd like to see us make some kind of a deal for Tom Wilson but thats wishful thinking on my part in all likelihood. 

 

 

[JM_]

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

As much as even I've been on the sign Kane and maybe a guy like Mike Green train (and would not be opposed to the right, shorter term deals for either/both), I'd not be shocked to see us largely avoid the UFA market and use the cap space to take on decent but perhaps underachieving players from cap strapped teams (along with the appropriate picks/prospects for helping them out).

how would you feel about trading for Seabrook if Chicago was desperate enough to include their 1st round pick? I don't know what we'd have to send back but thats one way to use the cap.