Linden & Benning on TSN 1040 - April 10

[RogersTowell]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

Cause and effect...deployment and TOI were two factors against the young players.

 

WD stuck with playing the Sedins on the PP, Ozone faceoffs 19 minutes per game plus 3rd period minutes...

 

Toronto on the other hand played their young guys who became their go to guys with their development and increased confidence.

 

Canucks management/ coaches need to start doing what they say and stick to playing and developing the young guys over playing the vets (who we already know what their limitations are).

TO had prospects more ready for the NHL to rely upon.  

 

WIllie got fired for his deployment choices.  I agree that the Sedins need to see some reduction in their ice time.  Even WIllie was starting to see that towards the end of the season.

 

Vancouver had by far the most man games missed due to illness and injury this season (and close to that last season).  An argument could be made that with more luck on the injuries they could have made the playoffs.  Honestly, however, I think that it's best for the long term that the team's injuries led to a tank season, even if it is a fairly weak draft year.  One more good draft position next year and some development of current prospects and the Canucks will likely be out of rebuild and into development, much like the Leafs or Oilers.  The thing to remember is that the Leafs and OIlers were sucking way back when the Canucks were winning President's trophies and playing in the SCF.  It was only when they lucked in to generational talent that they managed to shake off the decade long suckage and become playoff teams.

 

JBs drafting has been reasonable.  Not stellar, but solid overall.  He's missed on Virtanen for sure, and while he may yet become an impact player, he's far behind his peers in what he's provided to the team that drafted him.  Juolevi is a question mark for now.  He wasn't ready at the start of the season, but should be in one of the next two seasons and has the potential to be a top 2 d man for a decade or more.  Benning has found a decent number of gems in later rounds.

 

For the most part, drafts are a bit of a crap shoot.  You never know if a guy is just not going to pan out or if a later round guy will become a super star.  Very few players each year are guaranteed.  Even Virtanen has had about as much success as around half the 2014 first rounders while Boeser looks like he will be one of the better players from the 2015 draft.  Overall, I'd give Benning a B on his picks - a lower grade on the first round, but a very good grade on the later picks.  If we suck for one more year it's not a terrible problem - next year's draft is solid and could provide us with that one player needed to make a huge difference for years to come.

[CanadianRugby]

2 hours ago, R35Godz1lla said:

You are judging Benning on his ability to re-build when even you yourself admit that this trade deadline was the true start of the "Re-Build" phase.

 

Do you understand the contradiction there? You are complaining that he is bad at something he has not yet been doing for more than one trade deadline.

I never said Benning can't rebuild.  I said he decided to "go for it" instead of rebuilding and should be fired after 3 years of failing at his goal (making the playoffs while rebuilding) on an epic level.  The argument I've been having here since Benning got hired is if he's really rebuilding or not, roster turnover does not equal a rebuild.  The reason me and you are arguing is because you stated this whole mess is part of a big plan, which I don't see. 

 

After last trade deadline I stated how happy I was to see the team take the logical direction every hockey expert wanted since the start.  That doesn't excuse the previous 2.5 seasons. 

 

 

Quote

You seem like an intelligent fellow but you have this agenda of proving that Benning is not the right GM for this team and I don't understand what you get out of it.

I just want this team to win the Stanley Cup once before I die.  So what do I get out of ridiculing Benning?  Some relief from the anger I have from having him as our GM.  We're not going to agree, but in my opinion he's wasted 3 years and wasted virtually every asset we had that we should have used to get draft picks.  Some have left through free agency, some were traded for useless pieces, and some simply got old. 

 

He's had successes.  Boeser as a late 1st looks great from what we've seen.  Tryamkin is a good late pick and he's ripped Calgary off a couple of times.  Those moves won't make the Canucks a contender, they're not enough to offset his refusal to rebuild in the start.  Vancouver should have been tanking for McDavid and Matthews, not adding "foundational" vets for nonexistent playoff runs. 

 

"This is a team we can turn around in a hurry."  - Benning.  May, 2014.   Clearly he was wrong.  How did hockey experts predict what was to come and an NHL GM was blind to the realities of his roster?

 

 

Quote

Do you even hear yourself? Nice martyrdom syndrome by the way. I have never dismissed Matthews

You literally two posts ago:

"2015: Marner

2016: Matthews

 

Yah they really showed us  ."

 

 

Quote

Again, what are you even arguing? Toronto tanked for the last 3 years, Canucks didn't, That it, end of story. There is no other narrative to be applied here.

No kidding.  The dirty Leafs tanked, rebuilt and now have a young exciting good team.  My team didn't, though they should have, and have the mess that we have right now.  It's infuriating because I saw it coming from the minute Benning signed Miller & Vrbata, bringing vets in instead of getting rid of them.  What makes it even more infuriating is coming on CDC and watching some Canuck fans embarrass themselves by blindly defending Benning while trying to marginalize the Leaf's success.  Even though they predicted our turnaround would be quicker, because you know.. if you tank you turn into Edmonton.  Those same fans should be admitting they were wrong, not that this is all part of the plan. 

[CanadianRugby]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

Cause and effect...deployment and TOI were two factors against the young players.

 

WD stuck with playing the Sedins on the PP, Ozone faceoffs 19 minutes per game plus 3rd period minutes...

 

Toronto on the other hand played their young guys who became their go to guys with their development and increased confidence.

 

Canucks management/ coaches need to start doing what they say and stick to playing and developing the young guys over playing the vets (who we already know what their limitations are).

So you're saying the thing that prevented Vancouver from having 3 rookies with 60+ points... is deployment?  Just curious, which Canuck teenager did you see scoring 40 goals this year?

[bloodycanuckleheads]

17 minutes ago, RogersTowell said:

WIllie got fired for his deployment choices.  I agree that the Sedins need to see some reduction in their ice time.  Even WIllie was starting to see that towards the end of the season.

It's not a coincidence that we were - by far - the worst team in the NHL over the last 10 or 15 games.  Playing the kids = losing.  A lot of losing.  Very, very bad losing.

 

Turns out actual talent wins a lot more hockey games than potential.
 

Quote

 

One more good draft position next year and some development of current prospects and the Canucks will likely be out of rebuild and into development, much like the Leafs or Oilers.  The thing to remember is that the Leafs and OIlers were sucking way back when the Canucks were winning President's trophies and playing in the SCF.  It was only when they lucked in to generational talent that they managed to shake off the decade long suckage and become playoff teams.

 

Wait...  So, you are saying that it took 10 years of being god-awful for both the Oilers and the Leafs - all those extremely-high draft-picks ended up being pretty much worthless - and it wasn't until they got lucky and drafted generational #1 talent that they turned things around?  And, you said this immediately after claiming the Canucks can turn it around in like a couple years, without any of the top picks, generational-talent or luck?

[R35Godz1lla]

22 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

I never said Benning can't rebuild.  I said he decided to "go for it" instead of rebuilding and should be fired after 3 years of failing at his goal (making the playoffs while rebuilding) on an epic level.  The argument I've been having here since Benning got hired is if he's really rebuilding or not, roster turnover does not equal a rebuild.  The reason me and you are arguing is because you stated this whole mess is part of a big plan, which I don't see. 

 

After last trade deadline I stated how happy I was to see the team take the logical direction every hockey expert wanted since the start.  That doesn't excuse the previous 2.5 seasons. 

This is where I think you should probably re-direct your anger to Ownership, not Benning, nor Linden. Ownership gives the mandate on what they want to see achieved, Benning and Linden do their best to fulfill said mandates. I think the Tweet from Aqua is very telling, as an entire organization the focus has shifted. Combine the comments made by Linden and Benning on changing paths and add in The tweet by Aqua and you have an Ownership that is on board with starting a heavy duty rebuild, Is that not a reason for hope going forward?

 

I am sorry if what I have said made it sound like I think there was a plan to turn the team into a contender and at the same make the playoffs each year.

   I believe Benning knew this season was an eventuality, otherwise he would have been trading prospects and draft picks for over the hill overpriced stop gaps at every Trade Deadline, not attempting to sell off parts of the old core for future pieces of the puzzle. He even went to so far as to re-assure fans that no trade would be made that did not progress the goal of getting younger.

 

I don't thing Benning has failed at all, I think he has simply had to server two masters, both getting into the playoffs and rebuilding, I will never argue that you can't do both. The Canucks roster was far too old to retool. A True Retooling should have happened after 2011, but if there was one thing Gillis could not do it was make swift decisive decisions.

 

You have to admit if nothing else, Benning once he has his mind set on something does seem to act fairly quickly.

 

31 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

 

I just want this team to win the Stanley Cup once before I die.  So what do I get out of ridiculing Benning?  Some relief from the anger I have from having him as our GM.  We're not going to agree, but in my opinion he's wasted 3 years and wasted virtually every asset we had that we should have used to get draft picks.  Some have left through free agency, some were traded for useless pieces, and some simply got old. 

 

He's had successes.  Boeser as a late 1st looks great from what we've seen.  Tryamkin is a good late pick and he's ripped Calgary off a couple of times.  Those moves won't make the Canucks a contender, they're not enough to offset his refusal to rebuild in the start.  Vancouver should have been tanking for McDavid and Matthews, not adding "foundational" vets for nonexistent playoff runs. 

 

"This is a team we can turn around in a hurry."  - Benning.  May, 2014.   Clearly he was wrong.  How did hockey experts predict what was to come and an NHL GM was blind to the realities of his roster?

 

See above for Paragraph one and three.

 

For the middle portion of this quite . . .

 

I repeat we where never, ever going to Tank better than Edmonton during the McDavid Year, and at most we might have hit second worst last year if the team had actually tried to tank. So that's what, another 1.6% chance for Matthews? Toronto would still have won in most realities.

 

So at most maybe we would have picked up another draft pick or 2 had the team been more focuses on selling of assets. That said I like Goldobin and Dahlen way better than whoever we would have been picking in the second / third round, as that's all we would have got for Hansen/Burrows if we had traded them at the 2016 deadline.

 

36 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

You literally two posts ago:

"2015: Marner

2016: Matthews

 

Yah they really showed us  ."

That was in reference to the comment about how many more rookies have made their teams. My comments had nothing to do with the players themselves.

 

My comment was that I would hope a #4 and a #1 who is very close second to McDavid in skill would be on their given team. Considering that Toronto's focus was entirely on rebuilding and that the Canuck's rebuild was only truly started this trade deadline I think Benning is doing well everything considered.

 

40 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

No kidding.  The dirty Leafs tanked, rebuilt and now have a young exciting good team.  My team didn't, though they should have, and have the mess that we have right now.  It's infuriating because I saw it coming from the minute Benning signed Miller & Vrbata, bringing vets in instead of getting rid of them.  What makes it even more infuriating is coming on CDC and watching some Canuck fans embarrass themselves by blindly defending Benning while trying to marginalize the Leaf's success.  Even though they predicted our turnaround would be quicker, because you know.. if you tank you turn into Edmonton.  Those same fans should be admitting they were wrong, not that this is all part of the plan. 

I only defend the fact that the plan was in fact followed to the extent that it was outlined to Linden and Benning from higher up. Make the playoffs but don't sell off the future like past GM's. Can you agree that is exactly what they tried their best to do? Trying to do both may have been a mistake, but that's not something that we can say Benning could have done anything about, its not like a trade that should not have been made or a draft choice that was a mistake. He did what was asked of him, nothing wrong with that from a purely sterile perspective.

 

Also the leafs Re-Build is very much still in progress. I don't see Andersen as the Goalie to win them a cup, that said I may be wrong, it's not like I watch a ton of leafs hockey, or follow their players all the closely, he may yet prove to be a top 10 goalie. On D I just don't see a player who is going to step up and be the " It " factor that you need to steal a game or two per series. There are a also number of players that existed from previous management so I can't give them credit they don't deserve.

 

I don't minimize their success I just call it for what it is. Toronto had no choice but to hope that tanking would get them a player of Matthews skill level. I have no issue giving them credit for smart choices on Marner and Nylander, but given who was available at those draft sports they where kind of obvious picks. Not like they went off board.

 

I also never expected Toronto to be Edmonton 2.0 . I don't think anyone ever again will be Edmonton 2.0 . Edmonton showed the whole league how not to tank for 9 strait years. If GM's didn't take notes they deserve to become Edmonton 2.0 .

 

I never predicted a quick turnaround for the Canucks, but then I only just re-joined these Forums after probably an 8 year span of just lurking.

 

[RogersTowell]

2 hours ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

It's not a coincidence that we were - by far - the worst team in the NHL over the last 10 or 15 games.  Playing the kids = losing.  A lot of losing.  Very, very bad losing.

 

Turns out actual talent wins a lot more hockey games than potential.
 

Wait...  So, you are saying that it took 10 years of being god-awful for both the Oilers and the Leafs - all those extremely-high draft-picks ended up being pretty much worthless - and it wasn't until they got lucky and drafted generational #1 talent that they turned things around?  And, you said this immediately after claiming the Canucks can turn it around in like a couple years, without any of the top picks, generational-talent or luck?

Of course we were bad in the last 10-15 games.  We traded Burr and Hansen, two very solid two way NHLers and got back Goldobin, who played a few games, and Dahlen, who isn't NHL ready yet.  This meant more plugs playing more minutes (Megna, Chaput, etc..)   What did you expect?  We were sellers at the deadline.

 

I am saying that the Canucks can rebuild without generational talent, although they will get a top 5 pick this year and might get another next year.  I'm hoping for a super star to be drafted next year.  The difference between the three franchises is that the Canucks have started a build from the back end and are unlikely to have such a disastrous season again injury wise.  The Oilers kept taking skilled forwards and neglected their needs on D and goal until new management took over and addressed it quickly.  The leafs did goofy things like trading three firsts for a guy who was picked last at the all star game, and then when they came to their senses it took them a few years, a generational player and a regime change to get it right.  Both the leafs and oilers had terrible management for most of the last 10 years.

[messier's_elbow]

I like Benning and thought this was his best year as GM. He got some good prospects for old vets and when the writing was on the wall he tanked hard. Signing Erickson was Dave Nonis level GMing though. I can't fathom what they were thinking giving him 6 years. That's almost grounds for dismissal.

[Pete M]

5 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

So you're saying the thing that prevented Vancouver from having 3 rookies with 60+ points... is deployment?  Just curious, which Canuck teenager did you see scoring 40 goals this year?

I think the young guns if deployed properly, when other (sedins) were failing, perhaps would have resulted in a better result overall...they were not given a fair shake was more to my point. Of course, they would not have done what Mathews did.

 

Next year, the coaches should start playing the young guys in more key situations and put the Sedins in a secondary role if they excel.

[flickyoursedin]

5 hours ago, messier's_elbow said:

I like Benning and thought this was his best year as GM. He got some good prospects for old vets and when the writing was on the wall he tanked hard. Signing Erickson was Dave Nonis level GMing though. I can't fathom what they were thinking giving him 6 years. That's almost grounds for dismissal.

I do feel this was the first year we got to see Benning with his leash off. We've all heard the rumours of management interfering trying to make the playoffs on all accounts. Even the rumours of the alleged firing of Gillis when he suggested a rebuild. I think the Canucks finishing 28th place last season and at trade deadline was looking to suffer the same fate that management finally gave in to the rebuild.

[YummyCakeFace]

On 4/10/2017 at 2:27 PM, NUCKER67 said:

They said this so not to make Willie the scapegoat. They're nice guys who accept responsibility. Why they weren't fired is probably because they don't really deserve to be.

 

TL and JB have done a great job so far, despite what Tiger Williams (and the many negative people here) may think.

 

 

Lol

[R35Godz1lla]

8 hours ago, flickyoursedin said:

I do feel this was the first year we got to see Benning with his leash off. We've all heard the rumours of management interfering trying to make the playoffs on all accounts. Even the rumours of the alleged firing of Gillis when he suggested a rebuild. I think the Canucks finishing 28th place last season and at trade deadline was looking to suffer the same fate that management finally gave in to the rebuild.

Interfering would imply that Linden and Benning should just be allowed to do whatever they want.

 

I am not arguing for or against any one move with my statement, just stating that I think Canuck fans are a little out of touch with what it means to own an 8+ digit value business.

 

Ownership pays all the bills so if they want to have input that is their right, I also think ownership's desire to make the playoffs does not equate to them calling the shots on what moves are made. You can give your employees a directive and not have to micro manage them.

[flickyoursedin]

7 hours ago, R35Godz1lla said:

Interfering would imply that Linden and Benning should just be allowed to do whatever they want.

 

I am not arguing for or against any one move with my statement, just stating that I think Canuck fans are a little out of touch with what it means to own an 8+ digit value business.

 

Ownership pays all the bills so if they want to have input that is their right, I also think ownership's desire to make the playoffs does not equate to them calling the shots on what moves are made. You can give your employees a directive and not have to micro manage them.

Not whatever they want but a team destined for bottom five the gym shouldn't have to check with the owners if it's okay to move an old expiring vet (hamhuis) at the TDL. I mean what are you hiring these gms to do?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, flickyoursedin said:

Not whatever they want but a team destined for bottom five the gym shouldn't have to check with the owners if it's okay to move an old expiring vet (hamhuis) at the TDL. I mean what are you hiring these gms to do?

Isn't this "checking with the owner" to consummate the Hamhuis trade what caused the deal JB had made to go array?

[R35Godz1lla]

59 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

Not whatever they want but a team destined for bottom five the gym shouldn't have to check with the owners if it's okay to move an old expiring vet (hamhuis) at the TDL. I mean what are you hiring these gms to do?

 

If my employees job is to in a sense spend my money you bet I want him checking in with me to a degree. I still maintain to this day that the whole story of what happened at the TDL last year will never fully be known.

 

56 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Isn't this "checking with the owner" to consummate the Hamhuis trade what caused the deal JB had made to go array?

See above.

[flickyoursedin]

39 minutes ago, R35Godz1lla said:

 

If my employees job is to in a sense spend my money you bet I want him checking in with me to a degree. I still maintain to this day that the whole story of what happened at the TDL last year will never fully be known.

 

See above.

This isn't a retaining salary process or trading their cash cow young gun Bo Horvat in which case ownership should be 100% involved because that is their money and their investment. This was a money already spent and the kind of deals every other team makes. It's the last 3 months of a 35 year old dman that we're probably not gonna re-sign. In that case I think a quick call from Linden during the process to ownership saying "we got a great value deal lined up for Hamhuis we've been working hard at this and it's the best we're gonna get so we're gonna take it!" That should have been enough for management to trust such a marginal move.

[R35Godz1lla]

12 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

This isn't a retaining salary process or trading their cash cow young gun Bo Horvat in which case ownership should be 100% involved because that is their money and their investment. This was a money already spent and the kind of deals every other team makes. It's the last 3 months of a 35 year old dman that we're probably not gonna re-sign. In that case I think a quick call from Linden during the process to ownership saying "we got a great value deal lined up for Hamhuis we've been working hard at this and it's the best we're gonna get so we're gonna take it!" That should have been enough for management to trust such a marginal move.

As I said, I don't think we know the whole story on the Hamhuis deal.

[WeneedLumme]

3 minutes ago, R35Godz1lla said:

As I said, I don't think we know the whole story on the Hamhuis deal.

Certainly not the posters making up these silly stories.

[TheGuardian_]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:02 PM, CanadianRugby said:

What's the message you want your fan base to take forward today?

• I understand skepticism, but more encouraged than have been in last 3 years because he knows they have a future with kids that haven't played yet and some on team now. - Linden
• It's fun for a young team to grow, it's up to himself and Benning to make that happen. - Linden

 

OTHER NOTES

• Will resign Horvat before preseason
• Nobody needs surgery
• Nobody indicated if they are going to World Cup
• Want Ryan Miller back
• Sedins will probably decide their own future year to year

Haven't been born yet, this is a really, really long process, be patient and trust me, I am Trevor Linden.

It fun to watch your kids grow into a team, all those 10 and 11 years olds merge into a really good team within one year, it is fun, please pay $100 bucks a game to watch our kids have fun.

Will re-sign Horvat before the rest of the team bolts, well some of the team, well the ones that can

Nobody invited to world cup

Nobody else wants to come here, so we want MIller back at 8 million a season for 4 years. A real Guuuud deal for the nucks.

As soon as the Sedins tell what to do I will say how good they are, I hope they tell me soon.

[R35Godz1lla]

30 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Haven't been born yet, this is a really, really long process, be patient and trust me, I am Trevor Linden.

It fun to watch your kids grow into a team, all those 10 and 11 years olds merge into a really good team within one year, it is fun, please pay $100 bucks a game to watch our kids have fun.

Will re-sign Horvat before the rest of the team bolts, well some of the team, well the ones that can

Nobody invited to world cup

Nobody else wants to come here, so we want MIller back at 8 million a season for 4 years. A real Guuuud deal for the nucks.

As soon as the Sedins tell what to do I will say how good they are, I hope they tell me soon.

 

[Plaguez]

Hate how every thread on this site turns into two wanks bickering back & forth for 5 bloody pages.  You don't need to say all the words that come into your head north do you need to attempt to bend the will of another poster to see it your way.  You will NEVER GET ANYONE HERE TO SAY "OH, I'M WRONG YOU'RE RIGHT"