An Intelligent Debate on Ancient Alien Theory

[Ghostsof1915]

The human eye/brain combo isn't 100% reliable. When I show you a picture, sometimes people see what they want to see. 

 

Basically that's like humans 700 years from now, finding a stash of preserved comic books and then thinking it was illustrated history. 

 

As it has been said. "The surest sign there's other intelligent life in the universe is they haven't contacted us".

 

[riffraff]

No to aliens.

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

5 hours ago, EuroCanuck said:

cool- cant fix your lack of comprehension! have a nice night

 

After all the talk of intelligent debate I had to laugh at what's really the forum equivalent of running away from an argument.

[Hugor Hill]

4 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

The human eye/brain combo isn't 100% reliable. When I show you a picture, sometimes people see what they want to see. 

 

Basically that's like humans 700 years from now, finding a stash of preserved comic books and then thinking it was illustrated history. 

 

As it has been said. "The surest sign there's other intelligent life in the universe is they haven't contacted us".

 

"We haven't figured out how the pyramids where built so aliens must've built them."

(When in fact we got 95% of it figured out)

 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

9 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

"We haven't figured out how the pyramids where built so aliens must've built them."

(When in fact we got 95% of it figured out)

 

 

Or as they say on Red Dwarf. "MASSIVE, MASSIVE Whips!" 

 

 

[HerrDrFunk]

There seems to be a whole lot of ethnocentrism and a lack of understanding of basic science coming from the pro alien side of this debate.

[JM_]

8 hours ago, EuroCanuck said:

never said aliens were a certainty son. Sadly nuance is not your thing but dogma is.

 

I have an open mind and suggested our history is perhaps not as we know

 

Many are scared to open their minds. Your points ignore everything i said and simply repeat the same thing. Not once have you addressed the fact that ancient man had a library of knowledge of math and astronomy that by all accounts does not make sense based on their level of scientific knowledge (the library upon which science and math are built - the building blocks, nor the instrumentation). Much of what they knew is even just being confirmed today.

 

Science and Math are like blocks, they build on each other. You don't start at calculus and advanced astronomy. If you dont have the foundations to build to that, how do you get there? you cant. This is the POINT. So either there is a major gap in our understanding of how they built to it, which there is, and all of that knowledge somehow disappeared, or someone helped them with that knowledge.

 

To you, this means well they just figured it out. Well if we just figured it out based on building off THEIR knowledge, hmm how did they figure it out?

 

It is clear you can't comprehend the arguments being made. 

 

From the article I posted earlier that you conveniently ignored

 

The Babylonians had developed “abstract mathematical, geometrical ideas about the connection between motion, position and time that are so common to any modern physicist or mathematician,” - todays scientists know this because its learned, built on knowledge, yet these people just 'came up with it' with sticks I guess, or looking in the sky! As I said, damn they must be smart. Or we are damn stupid because we needed all that mathematical and astronomical knowledge and study built over centuries and advances in scientific method and instruments to figure much of it out!

 

Take care.

Aliens didn't drop calculus on us. Isaac Newton did. 

 

Yes the Babylonians were smart, they could observe things, record them, wonder about them. Learn new things over time. No aliens needed.

 

You keep talking about an "open mind" and that I'm ignoring you, but nothing you've said proves the existence - or more importantly the need - for aliens. We have the capability to do it all ourselves. 

 

Also, you claim knowledge of this alien culture that you couldn't possibly know anything about. We know that people have invented all kinds of mathematical concepts not provided by aliens. So tell me, how could you tell our and theirs apart when you have no idea what these aliens were like or what they contributed? 

 

How did "they" figure it out? the same way we did. You desperately want there to be an origin theory apart from ourselves, your whole premise for this thread is BS. You want some sort of theology that sets us apart, when there are mountains of evidence that we did it all on our own. 

 

Having an open mind means looking at all the available evidence, you refuse to do that. 

 

 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

“Intelligent Discussion on Ancient Aliens”.  Equals classic oxymoron.  Yes, posters can spew  their beliefs by using intellectually presented writing, but the topic is still “Ancient Aliens”, which (in itself) is not intellectual.  It’s fun to discuss such beliefs, bu certainly not intellectual.  

@EuroCanuck your statement, “ the fact is our history is clearly not as we are told” suggests you believe in a conspiracy theory.  You have strong beliefs.  Those beliefs indicate faith, which implies: that which you wish to discuss rationally cannot be, because it cannot be proven scientifically — Oxymoron.  

when I saw the title of the thread of 'ancient aliens' there had to be an @Alflives joke in there somewhere 

 

If anything, the whole ancient aliens thing shows they were jerks. All that amazing tech and all they did was drop a little algebra on us and made us build pointy buildings. Maybe it was ancient alien teenagers just messing with us. 

 

[JM_]

8 hours ago, Aladeen said:

Puma punku is not about the building of it persay... it’s about the precision of the cutting of the stones like the perfect circles and angles carved into the stone that can only be replicated using laser guidance.

 

dropa stones haven’t been allowed to be studied by independent sources since they were first discovered. They are rotting away in some Chinese vault somewhere and they say it’s nothing and yet the people who were able to study them for a short time intially found microscopic hieroglyphs as well as strange electromagnetic frequencies emanating from them as well as observed that they hummed and yet dated to be thousands of years old (these are the smart humans you say explain everything throughout our history) 

 

How can they be debunked if they have not been studied thoroughly in the first place and now are even denied to have existed at all even though there is photographic evidence and various scientists who say they do? 

 

If you believe the Chinese government on this one I hate to break it to you but governments don’t always tell you the truth.

 

Lets say for the sake of argument that the dropa stones are actually alien tech. They clearly didn't contribute to Chinese or any other culture or technology in any way, nothing from them translated into new Chinese achievements e.g.. Sure they're neat and mysterious, but the Chinese didn't start making more objects like them. At best they are evidence of a visit, but they don't show a transfer of ideas. But its not hard to come up with some human based explanations as well. The small markings are just evidence of is some ancient person invented a simple pantograph, no aliens needed. As far as the EM stuff, well I guess we'll have to wait and see if they ever surface again to see what that was but China just happens to be where most of the worlds superconducting magnet materials are mined so that could have something to do with it as well. But even if they were real, they didn't contribute anything to human society. 

 

As far as the stone cutting, there have been a number of studies showing how accurate stone work was done: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/parthenon-quarry.html

 

 

 

[Hobble]

7 hours ago, EuroCanuck said:

yes and no one suggested evolution is - but evolution is the idea that the body optimizes itself for its environment. If our bodies were built for this environment, we should never have even had appendixes- does a fish have feet? it doesn't need feet, its environment was water, it never developed feet did it?

Again, you may want to focus on one point, it was a minor point in a much larger position, again, i suggest you read my last post.

 

thanks!

Just feel the need to point this out.

 

Fish don't have feet because they originated in water.

 

Land-based creatures have feet because they evolved from fish that managed to wander onto land. (see the Walking Fish)

 

Ocean mammals have flippers, which used to be feet, which is more obvious with seals, and less obvious with whales (which still have trace skeletal structures of high limbs hidden in their body).

 

While I am fine entertaining ideas of aliens and origins of life, you seem to be hung up on pretty simple evolutionary concepts that in no way support the theory of ancient aliens, and when included in this discussion, only weaken the foundation of your thesis.

 

If having an appendix was such a negative selective pressure (such as inflaming and rupturing in a high percentage of young humans), there would be a greater selective pressure to lose it all together. However, with modern science, even in the cases where it does cause health risks, surgeries can remove it. Humans also used to have larger jaws and jaw muscles to eat rougher vegetation. When humans discovered cooking and tools, they could cook and cut the meals into smaller, more digestible portions. This allowed for humans to lose muscle mass in jaw, reducing the necessity for wisdom teeth (some people are now born to never have them), and easier digestion and calorie absorption. This meant humans could also evolve a smaller digestive tract, due to the greater nutrient absorption in cooked food. All of these energy savings in muscles, digestive systems could also allow us to use their extra energy on growing bigger brains. (all of these evolutionary steps may not have been in this order historically, but they are all complimentary.)

 

You say "this environment" as if it has been static for all our history. Our body type didn't originally develop for modern environments, it was created on African savannah. Back in those times, the appendix likely had a relevant function.

[Wilbur]

9 hours ago, EuroCanuck said:

so you think these ancient people could look at the sky, discern what is a star vs a planet and know which ones are in our solar system? cool

 

I bet you cant do that, nor most people on this site, who don't have a clue what up there is a star or a planet to start with.

 

We agree to disagree...I keep asking why, why did they look up there, how did they discern the difference, this is not normal nor simple, so much so as I said 99.5% of people today are incapable of this probably even with a telescope and knowledge of our solar system sir.

 

My view is quite simple. Suggesting early man somehow made these intellectual leaps that even man today doesn't understand tells me one thing, we don't have all the answers. So to summarily dismiss that the could have had help lacks an open mind.

 

We all had help learning calculus, astronomy etc, somehow early man had the intellectual capacity to learn all this with no established mathematical basis, no 'starting point/library of knowledge to draw on'. to me i ask how.

How much time does the average person nowadays look up at the night sky and truly exam it?

How much time do you think the average Mayan did?

 

Cultures used astrological 'data' as a way to predict seasons, to predict basic climate patterns (ie el nino, la nina).  Really it's one of the few things they had to try to predict these things.  When I good chunk of your time is spent looking up at the sky eventually the patterns and cycles will emerge for some.  No one really does that today because

1) we don't need to.  There are other technologies that we've developed predict seasons/climate

2) we have so many more distractions at night with the invention of electricity that no one nearly spends as much time looking at the night sky as our ancestors so it's a lost art

[Hobble]

8 hours ago, Agoork said:

There are so many religions out there and most of them do have some sort of "god" or "gods" that come down from the heavens - often in a flaming chariot or flying vehicle of some kind.  With "man" being so spread out back in ancient times, with no way of communicating with other people all over the world, there's too much in common in the different religions for it to just be a coincidence.  

Convergent evolution suggests biological traits could evolve from two completely unrelated origins in order to complete the same purpose, such as a bat, bird and insect wings.

 

I don't think it is absurd to postulate two separated populations of humans that have the same cognitive capacities, and deal with similar environments/problems could both come to similar beliefs of Gods.

 

And that is excluding the basis that many more recent religions just take prophecies/stories from older religions.

 

[Hobble]

7 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

How much time does the average person nowadays look up at the night sky and truly exam it?

How much time do you think the average Mayan did?

 

Cultures used astrological 'data' as a way to predict seasons, to predict basic climate patterns (ie el nino, la nina).  Really it's one of the few things they had to try to predict these things.  When I good chunk of your time is spent looking up at the sky eventually the patterns and cycles will emerge for some.  No one really does that today because

1) we don't need to.  There are other technologies that we've developed predict seasons/climate

2) we have so many more distractions at night with the invention of electricity that no one nearly spends as much time looking at the night sky as our ancestors so it's a lost art

I think the majority of people have forgotten what a true night sky looks like, given the degree of light pollution.

If they head out into the middle of nowhere and look up at the sky, there is far more that can be made out with the naked eye that could be seen from just looking outside my window in the city.

[Hobble]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

The human eye/brain combo isn't 100% reliable. When I show you a picture, sometimes people see what they want to see. 

 

Basically that's like humans 700 years from now, finding a stash of preserved comic books and then thinking it was illustrated history. 

 

As it has been said. "The surest sign there's other intelligent life in the universe is they haven't contacted us".

 

I look forward to 500 years from now, when our Lord and Saviour Harry Potter is given the credit he deserved from defeating He Who Shall Not Be Named, with help from the Apostles Weasley and Granger.

[EuroCanuck]

19 minutes ago, Hobble said:

Just feel the need to point this out.

 

Fish don't have feet because they originated in water.

 

Land-based creatures have feet because they evolved from fish that managed to wander onto land. (see the Walking Fish)

 

Ocean mammals have flippers, which used to be feet, which is more obvious with seals, and less obvious with whales (which still have trace skeletal structures of high limbs hidden in their body).

 

While I am fine entertaining ideas of aliens and origins of life, you seem to be hung up on pretty simple evolutionary concepts that in no way support the theory of ancient aliens, and when included in this discussion, only weaken the foundation of your thesis.

 

If having an appendix was such a negative selective pressure (such as inflaming and rupturing in a high percentage of young humans), there would be a greater selective pressure to lose it all together. However, with modern science, even in the cases where it does cause health risks, surgeries can remove it. Humans also used to have larger jaws and jaw muscles to eat rougher vegetation. When humans discovered cooking and tools, they could cook and cut the meals into smaller, more digestible portions. This allowed for humans to lose muscle mass in jaw, reducing the necessity for wisdom teeth (some people are now born to never have them), and easier digestion and calorie absorption. This meant humans could also evolve a smaller digestive tract, due to the greater nutrient absorption in cooked food. All of these energy savings in muscles, digestive systems could also allow us to use their extra energy on growing bigger brains. (all of these evolutionary steps may not have been in this order historically, but they are all complimentary.)

 

You say "this environment" as if it has been static for all our history. Our body type didn't originally develop for modern environments, it was created on African savannah. Back in those times, the appendix likely had a relevant function.

That’s the point - fish feet. Evolution. Don’t need, doesn’t evolve.

 

thanks 

[Primal Optimist]

I know a few things cuz I have seen a few things.

 

First of all: There will never be time travel in the sense that you can hop in a machine and go back in time, hop out of it there and exist in that time. How do i know this? We are sort of incompetent as a species when it comes to details and individual accountability. Our successes have happened when we embrace hive mentality. ANd so I present my theory that if at any time in the future story of humanity we create such a machine: from that moment forth there will be ever more machines going back in time. Eventually someone is going to muff that up and somehow or other a time machine will be left behind, found, discovered, or otherwise figured out by the historical us, even though future us will try to not let that happen. In all of the future time imaginable that is a LOT of cover up to try to keep from being found in all of past time. Eventually  we will have found a time machine in the past and therefore have it in the present if we discover the ability at any point in the future. THerefore, we don't have it now so we never will have it. THank you, that is my summary on the issue of time travel back in time. 

 

Secondly, it is roughly known that there were and are some 250 thousand 'gods' known in all the history of mankind. You dear reader may be a christian because you were born in a western nation to good sturdy christian parents, however by the pure coincidence of birth you may have been just as easily a Hindu or a Muslim or a Jewish person, or a non religious secular humanist. Random chance of being born to a person of faith is the largest contributing factor to your belief in your particular god. All the rest are make believe in your opinion dear reader and so I suspect that you may agree a little bit that if 229 thousand gods are pure fiction and created by the imaginations of humans to explain what we didn't understand, and in your life only your "god" is real....then it is safe to say in the macro broad general sweep of all of life on earth that all 'gods' are equally made up. We believe what we believe because of pure indoctrination, usually from birth into the cult of our parents choosing.

 

So no gods and no time travel to the past.

 

This brings me to my third epiphany as taken from my lifetime of knowing a thing or two because I have seen a thing or two.

 

While I readily admit that there is a very good chance that some other star has some other planet going around it with some other form of life on it, and probably more than one other place in the entire universe....I am also sure that those other life forms would not or could not travel by intelligent choice to our pale blue dot navigating an orbit around our star, and upon arrival here, they manage to only be seen or heard from by our anal probing obsessed trailer trash and poor videographers with inferior equipment to capture a scientifically verifiable movie or image. Jus sayin, if life exists off this rock, they are not coming here to poke you in the butt and therefore they didn't come here to set up shop and quietly guide life on earth from afar while only occasionally poking the odd yokel in the anus.

[JM_]

11 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

How much time does the average person nowadays look up at the night sky and truly exam it?

How much time do you think the average Mayan did?

 

Cultures used astrological 'data' as a way to predict seasons, to predict basic climate patterns (ie el nino, la nina).  Really it's one of the few things they had to try to predict these things.  When I good chunk of your time is spent looking up at the sky eventually the patterns and cycles will emerge for some.  No one really does that today because

1) we don't need to.  There are other technologies that we've developed predict seasons/climate

2) we have so many more distractions at night with the invention of electricity that no one nearly spends as much time looking at the night sky as our ancestors so it's a lost art

not to mention that stars twinkle and planets don't. There's quite a difference if you care to look. 

 

The whole premise of this thing rests on ancient people not having much imagination or capacity to learn. And thats not supported at all by the evidence of all the amazing things cultures have done all over the world, many without formal math written down. Igloo's use the same basic architectural techniques to build domes they same way the Romans did. Oh must be alines. No people are just smart. 

 

 

[EuroCanuck]

5 minutes ago, Hobble said:

I think the majority of people have forgotten what a true night sky looks like, given the degree of light pollution.

If they head out into the middle of nowhere and look up at the sky, there is far more that can be made out with the naked eye that could be seen from just looking outside my window in the city.

Lol - ya and you can discern planets from stars without knowing this difference? Or even knowing planets existed? Or what stars were? Umm. Ok 

 

enthnocentrism 

[Toews]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

“Intelligent Discussion on Ancient Aliens”.  Equals classic oxymoron.  Yes, posters can spew  their beliefs by using intellectually presented writing, but the topic is still “Ancient Aliens”, which (in itself) is not intellectual.  It’s fun to discuss such beliefs, bu certainly not intellectual.  

@EuroCanuck your statement, “ the fact is our history is clearly not as we are told” suggests you believe in a conspiracy theory.  You have strong beliefs.  Those beliefs indicate faith, which implies: that which you wish to discuss rationally cannot be, because it cannot be proven scientifically — Oxymoron.  

Proof that Alf is a critical thinker except when he conveniently chooses not to be. I don't mean this as criticism. 

[EuroCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

not to mention that stars twinkle and planets don't. There's quite a difference if you care to look. 

 

The whole premise of this thing rests on ancient people not having much imagination or capacity to learn. And thats not supported at all by the evidence of all the amazing things cultures have done all over the world, many without formal math written down. Igloo's use the same basic architectural techniques to build domes they same way the Romans did. Oh must be alines. No people are just smart. 

 

 

Cool you done with your rants?

 

You believe in conventional science just “accepts” humans did it. Go read my long post on that above. You’ll realize (if logic is something you possess) the logical fallacy of that argument.

 

Good luck!