(Discussion) - Anders Lee & J.T. Miller Comparison

[D-Money]

1 hour ago, 73 Percent said:

This is such a pedestrian way to look at it.

 

We're likely giving up a late first and a late 3rd, both of which are no guarantees to produce an nhl player.

 

Lee likely left a bit of money on the table to continue qith the islanders. So if we were to sign him we likely pay 7.5m-8m for the 7 years. He'll be 36 by the time that contract expires. He already isnt the greatest skater. He'll be much slower  by 36... making 7.5-8m. Sound like somone you know? 

 

Now factor in that Lee's contract comes with a ntc. That contract may be immovable in a few years. 

 

Lee is the superior scorer mostly due to his one 40 goal season, but remember he's 3 years older than miller. Take away those top 3 years and you get a 36 and 41 pt season. Miller is closer offensively than you think. 

 

So essentially we gave up a late first and a late third, for a player 3 years the younger, 1.75-2.75m cheaper, during all and only his prime years, without any trade clause. 

 

That late first is worth not taking a bad contract. Wouldn't you trade a late first to get rid of Eriksson? Because thats pretty much what we did by avoiding signing lee.

This is the problem I have with the Miller trade. We don't know that we're giving up a late 1st.

 

In fact, we've been one of the worst teams in the league for 4 years straight. So simply assuming the addition of a few guys who played depth roles in better teams makes us an obvious playoff team might be misplaced optimism. Although on paper we look better, it's not inconceivable that it just doesn't come together and/or injuries ravage us again, and we give up a top pick in 2021, which would be a disaster. 

 

But in this case, I want no part of Lee with that contract. And even if the Canucks' management did, there is no proof that Lee wanted to play for them either, or if he did how much more would he cost. So it's foolish to think we could have just signed Lee instead of making the trade. 

 

(...But there is a fair bit of evidence that we could have just signed Nyquist.)

[73 Percent]

5 minutes ago, D-Money said:

This is the problem I have with the Miller trade. We don't know that we're giving up a late 1st.

 

In fact, we've been one of the worst teams in the league for 4 years straight. So simply assuming the addition of a few guys who played depth roles in better teams makes us an obvious playoff team might be misplaced optimism. Although on paper we look better, it's not inconceivable that it just doesn't come together and/or injuries ravage us again, and we give up a top pick in 2021, which would be a disaster. 

 

But in this case, I want no part of Lee with that contract. And even if the Canucks' management did, there is no proof that Lee wanted to play for them either, or if he did how much more would he cost. So it's foolish to think we could have just signed Lee instead of making the trade. 

 

(...But there is a fair bit of evidence that we could have just signed Nyquist.)

Hey thats your opinion and we have to respect that. I'd bet that the canucks make the playoffs at least one of the next two years though. We're definitely not a shoe in, but we were close this year amd trending up.

[Phat Fingers]

On 6/30/2019 at 4:38 PM, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Miller will be just like Leivo, Pearson or others, the magic happens sometimes when Goldy is with them, maybe the plan it to put Brock with Bo and JT instead and sign Lee to play with Goldy and Elias. But Miller is a career center and not a winger so ?????

 

Go back under your bridge.  

[Phat Fingers]

1 hour ago, D-Money said:

This is the problem I have with the Miller trade. We don't know that we're giving up a late 1st.

 

In fact, we've been one of the worst teams in the league for 4 years straight. So simply assuming the addition of a few guys who played depth roles in better teams makes us an obvious playoff team might be misplaced optimism. Although on paper we look better, it's not inconceivable that it just doesn't come together and/or injuries ravage us again, and we give up a top pick in 2021, which would be a disaster. 

 

But in this case, I want no part of Lee with that contract. And even if the Canucks' management did, there is no proof that Lee wanted to play for them either, or if he did how much more would he cost. So it's foolish to think we could have just signed Lee instead of making the trade. 

 

(...But there is a fair bit of evidence that we could have just signed Nyquist.)

Whereas I don't have a problem with the trade, especially in sight of the FA signings.  

 

IMO as soon as Vancouver backed off Subban, the Miller deal went forward.  JB had Myers in his back pocket.  With Miller, it's all about his cap hit and what he brings with it.  Remember JB knew that Luongo was retiring.  That extra 3 m cap hit took Vancouver out of a few deals, like Subban and or Lee.  

 

Put a good young two way PF with 7 years NHL experience on Ep40's wing and Brocks wing.  

 

A few things are going to happen,

 

Millers production is going to increase.  No brainer, Miller is saddling up along side a generational player.  Or at Vancouvers closest player to be called that.  

 

Ep40 isn't going to get run nearly as much.  Miller plays and edgy game.  He will provide push back.  Plus in many ways, Ep40 is his ticket to big big money on his next contract.  Miller will have extra motivation.  

 

Miller is resilient and has a good track record in games played.  This takes pressure off of Baer.  With Miller getting 1st line minutes, Baer can skate with Bo and Pearson.  

 

Since both lines offer a great blend of size, skill, speed, 2 way and offence, which one does the other team focus on?  

 

If Miller can absorb those tougher minutes, Baer might make thru 3/4 of a season.  Plus Bo would have an actual top.6 player as a winger.  

 

With the FA signings plus Hughes and are Goalies getting better with Marky and Demko starting the year vs Markt and Nielsen.  Ae are going to see a big swing in the stats. 

Zone exits are going up,

zone entries are going up,

our possession time is going up,

our giveaways are decreasing,

Defensive scoring is going up

Our PP is going to get better

We will spend less time in the sin bin.  

Our GAA will decrease 

Our GF will.increase and I predict that our man games lost will decrease...

 

Now that may mean we don't win one more game then last season, but looking at the western conference, we have moved the needle.  Is it enough... maybe, maybe not.  

 

But I would say that JB made a good deal.  

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Phat Fingers

[D-Money]

58 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Whereas I don't have a problem with the trade, especially in sight of the FA signings.  

 

IMO as soon as Vancouver backed off Subban, the Miller deal went forward.  JB had Myers in his back pocket.  With Miller, it's all about his cap hit and what he brings with it.  Remember JB knew that Luongo was retiring.  That extra 3 m cap hit took Vancouver out of a few deals, like Subban and or Lee.  

 

Put a good young two way PF with 7 years NHL experience on Ep40's wing and Brocks wing.  

 

A few things are going to happen,

 

Millers production is going to increase.  No brainer, Miller is saddling up along side a generational player.  Or at Vancouvers closest player to be called that.  

 

Ep40 isn't going to get run nearly as much.  Miller plays and edgy game.  He will provide push back.  Plus in many ways, Ep40 is his ticket to big big money on his next contract.  Miller will have extra motivation.  

 

Miller is resilient and has a good track record in games played.  This takes pressure off of Baer.  With Miller getting 1st line minutes, Baer can skate with Bo and Pearson.  

 

Since both lines offer a great blend of size, skill, speed, 2 way and offence, which one does the other team focus on?  

 

If Miller can absorb those tougher minutes, Baer might make thru 3/4 of a season.  Plus Bo would have an actual top.6 player as a winger.  

 

With the FA signings plus Hughes and are Goalies getting better with Marky and Demko starting the year vs Markt and Nielsen.  Ae are going to see a big swing in the stats. 

Zone exits are going up,

zone entries are going up,

our possession time is going up,

our giveaways are decreasing,

Defensive scoring is going up

Our PP is going to get better

We will spend less time in the sin bin.  

Our GAA will decrease 

Our GF will.increase and I predict that our man games lost will decrease...

 

Now that may mean we don't win one more game then last season, but looking at the western conference, we have moved the needle.  Is it enough... maybe, maybe not.  

 

But I would say that JB made a good deal.  

 

That all looks good on paper. But once again, if the pick ends up a top-10 pick, it's not going to look good. If it's top-5, it's a major fail.

 

But even if we squeak into the playoffs next year, and Tampa gets a 2020 pick in the range of #16-24, that still might turn out to be regrettable. 2020 is considered one of the strongest drafts in years, perhaps even better than 2015. In 2015 the players chosen with picks #16-24 included Matthew Barzal, Kyle Connor, Thomas Chabot, Colin White, Brock Boeser, and Travis Konecny. So the idea that Miller will almost certainly be as good as the player we would have chosen had we kept the pick is also questionable reasoning.

 

[Tomatoes11]

I still can’t believe we gave up a 1st for freaking Miller. Omg. And people are actually defending it. 

 

This could turn out worse than the Kessell trade. Much much worse because Kessel was a legitimate point per game type and Miller isn’t even close. Yet the return Tampa got was pretty close. That’s how bad this trade is and was.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Tomatoes11

[Losing With Pride]

1 hour ago, D-Money said:

That all looks good on paper. But once again, if the pick ends up a top-10 pick, it's not going to look good. If it's top-5, it's a major fail.

 

But even if we squeak into the playoffs next year, and Tampa gets a 2020 pick in the range of #16-24, that still might turn out to be regrettable. 2020 is considered one of the strongest drafts in years, perhaps even better than 2015. In 2015 the players chosen with picks #16-24 included Matthew Barzal, Kyle Connor, Thomas Chabot, Colin White, Brock Boeser, and Travis Konecny. So the idea that Miller will almost certainly be as good as the player we would have chosen had we kept the pick is also questionable reasoning. 

  

That is what I am also worried about. 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

I still can’t believe we gave up a 1st for freaking Miller. Omg. And prop,e are actually defending it. 

 

This could turn out worse than the Kessell trade. Much much worse because Kessel was a legitimate point per game type and Miller isn’t even close. Yet the return Tampa got was pretty close. That’s how bad this trade is and was.

Well, I see things differently.  Miller is the perfect winger to play with Petey and Bess.  He’s on a great contract for four more years.  With a pick between 10 and 20 we would be lucky to get a player of that quality.  Plus, said prospect would not contribute to our current core until 2024.  It’s time to support our current core now, and not wait.  I think that’s where we differ.  You want us to continue to rebuild.  I believe our current young core is established, and ready to be supported the best we can.  Look at the Leafs!  They don’t have first round picks (and some seconds too) for three years.  That’s how a team supports their young core.  It’s time for us. 

[oldnews]

On 6/30/2019 at 3:29 PM, CanadianRugby said:

OK So...

- JT Miller is the new nuclear deterrent

- JT Miller snipes like Petey

- Anson Carter was the last nuclear deterrent

 

And I'm the stupid one?   OK iceman I'm a let you get back to your incoherent rants.  

[RonMexico]

People still worried that the Canucks gave up a unknown quantity that may or may not be an impact player within the next 5 years.

[oldnews]

12 hours ago, RRypien37 said:

Lee is the superior scorer and much more proven. 7x7 is actually fair for him with how bloated contracts have been. 
 

JT's contract is far too, but apples and oranges as of right now. 

What are you talking about?

 

Last four seasons:

 

Lee:

36 points

52

62

51

All full seasons

 

Miller

56

58

58

47

 

Do the actual math.  Lee aint a 'superior scorer' by any stretch of the imagination.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

People still worried that the Canucks gave up a unknown quantity that may or may not be an impact player within the next 5 years.

I know; it’s crazy.  We got Miller on a Bo kind of contract.  Miller’s cap hit is two million less than it could be.  We are saving cap too in getting Miller.  

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What are you talking about?

 

Last four seasons:

 

Lee:

36 points

52

62

51

All full seasons

 

Miller

56

58

58

47

 

Do the actual math.  Lee aint a 'superior scorer' by any stretch of the imagination.

@oldnews

God!  Would you stop with using facts in your arguments?  They always just make my points look stupid, and me too.   

[RRypien37]

42 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What are you talking about?

 

Last four seasons:

 

Lee:

36 points

52

62

51

All full seasons

 

Miller

56

58

58

47

 

Do the actual math.  Lee aint a 'superior scorer' by any stretch of the imagination.

Goals. Goals. Goals

 

That is why I said SCORER. I swear I have manually blocked you like 3 times I don't know how you still show up in threads. 

 

Lee GOALS:

25

15

34

40

28

5 season AVERAGE GOALS: 28.4

 

Miller GOALS:

10

22

22

13

23

5 season AVERAGE GOALS: 18

 

So take your own advice and do "actual math". 

Edited July 2, 2019 by RRypien37

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, RRypien37 said:

Goals. Goals. Goals

 

That is why I said SCORER.

yawn.

 

"Scorer"  is scoring - ie goals and assists.

 

If you mean "goal scorer" and don't specify goal scorer that is on you.

 

Proven?  Lee is no more "proven"  whatsoever - you are cherry picking.

 

Regardless - there is nothing 'apples and oranges' about these comparables - and Miller is every bit the 'scorer' - and every bit as 'proven" - while being younger, more versatile, and a 'more proven' playmaker - something that will come in handy with Boeser on that line.

[RRypien37]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

yawn.

 

"Scorer"  is scoring - ie goals and assists.

 

If you mean "goal scorer" and don't specify goal scorer that is on you.

 

Proven?  Lee is no more "proven"  whatsoever - you are cherry picking.

 

Regardless - there is nothing 'apples and oranges' about these comparables - and Miller is every bit the 'scorer' - and every bit as 'proven" - while being younger, more versatile, and a 'more proven' playmaker - something that will come in handy with Boeser on that line.

NVM. Not worth my time. Blocked anyway. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by RRypien37

[spur1]

12 minutes ago, RRypien37 said:

NVM. Not worth my time. Blocked anyway. 

What....can't handle the truth.

[RRypien37]

7 minutes ago, spur1 said:

What....can't handle the truth.

Yeah. The truth...that it is futile arguing a point with 2 senile old men. 

[spur1]

3 minutes ago, RRypien37 said:

Yeah. The truth...that it is futile arguing a point with 2 senile old men. 

For starters it would help to have a valid point. 

[RRypien37]

10 minutes ago, spur1 said:

For starters it would help to have a valid point. 

The point was clearly stated.

 

I made a break down of both players goal totals over the past 5 season along with a yearly average over that span.

 

Lee scores 10 more goals per years on average. He is also 3 years older and CAPTAIN of his team. If that is not a proven player, than I don't know what is.

 

Oldnews enjoys starting arguments with everyone because he has nothing better do to. Proof to that is his total post count. Probably spends 10+ hours a day on here spewing anger and hate. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by RRypien37