The Great Salary Cap Conundrum

[Phat Fingers]

13 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I enjoyed this post, thanks.

 

You have hit the cruxt of it, in that we our system produces players who are effective on the ELC's? We should be in pretty good shape.

 

> 2020/21 Tanev's salary comes off the books.  We're ok if Tryamkin, Woo or Juolevi arrive? Does leave some left / right questions. Tanev's money goes to re-signing Markstrom? We have flex if Demko is ready and a back up emerges.  Schaller and Leivo come off the books. Which requires Gaudette winning a FT role, another rookie ready for spot duty. MaCewen, Lockwood? If Eriksson or another salary leaves, say Markstrom again, pretty easy to look at Barrie. Or bring back Chris Tanev...

 

> 2021/22  Is the real year we need rookies & young players. Sutter, Baertschi & Pearson, Spooners penalty come off the books. And all of our D except Myers. We only have 8 players assuming Brock signs now, among them 7 forwards, 1 D and no goalie signed.  But $43 mill aprox. in cap space? Several players will have resigned in between, presumably Gaudette, Virtanen, Stecher, Juolevi, Edler after expansion, maybe Tryamkin, on top of Pettersson & Hughes against that $43. 

 

In 2021/22 having only one D currently signed scares me.  I think we have numerous forward candidates to join the team at this time. Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lind, Lockwood, Madden.  Being able to add Juolevi, Tryamkin & Woo, having Sautner and Brisbois is a bit scary considering we need 5 D.  ALL 5 have to become core players and be integrated?

 

The cap suggests we may not have room for Tyson Barrie next year.  Or someone like him.

 

Reality says we will be moving Loui Eriksson to make room. 

 

I understood to terminate, he had to retire from the NHL.  ie could sign in Europe like Datsyuk.  But could only come back to the NHL on the same team, or if the same team traded him, like Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk had to wait till all the years on his Jersey deal expired was my understanding.

 

Honest question?

Loui's bonuses are guaranteed.  $4mill this year already paid, followed by $3 mill and $1 mill. $8 mill. We pay & 100% of any signing bonuses in a buyout counts against our cap. 2/3rds the salary over twice the term.

 

To buy out we only save $1.67 mill in real cash, and have all these cap hits.  Loui Eriksson's contract is pretty buyout proof.

For us, but if seeing as he just got his garuantee 8m bonus July 1st... whomever takes over the contract gets a buyout friendly deal as we have already taken the hit.  

[mll]

33 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

For us, but if seeing as he just got his garuantee 8m bonus July 1st... whomever takes over the contract gets a buyout friendly deal as we have already taken the hit.  

He can no longer be bought out this year.  The buyout window is closed until next mid-June.  

 

Teams who have players filing for arbitration do have a 2nd buyout window but they can only buyout players who were on their roster at the TDL.  

 

The bonus is not part of the buyout calculation.  It's part of the overall cap hit of 6M but doesn't impact the buyout cap hit.  Only the remaining base salary owed does.  

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by mll

[Phat Fingers]

33 minutes ago, mll said:

He can no longer be bought out this year.  The buyout window is closed until next mid-June.  

 

Teams who have players filing for arbitration do have a 2nd buyout window but they can only buyout players who were on their roster at the TDL.  

 

The bonus is not part of the buyout calculation.  It's part of the overall cap hit of 6M but doesn't impact the buyout cap hit.  Only the remaining base salary owed does.  

 

Didn't think Eriksson would be bought out this year.  If a team just has to pay his salary and needs to add cap, then he is a serviceable player that could bounce back with a  change of scenery.  He would cost nothing to aquire and can be relayed upon to be a good two way guy and responsible.  

 

Next season that team could buy him out and not face the same hit as Vancouver would

  

[mll]

18 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Didn't think Eriksson would be bought out this year.  If a team just has to pay his salary and needs to add cap, then he is a serviceable player that could bounce back with a  change of scenery.  He would cost nothing to aquire and can be relayed upon to be a good two way guy and responsible.  

 

Next season that team could buy him out and not face the same hit as Vancouver would

  

The cap hit would be the same whether he is bought out in Vancouver or on another team.  The calculation doesn't change.  

 

The buyout cap hit is dependent on the actual cap hit (here 6M) and the remaining base salary owed.  The bonus payments still owed or already paid don't factor into the calculation of the buyout cap hit.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by mll

[Phat Fingers]

31 minutes ago, mll said:

The cap hit would be the same whether he is bought out in Vancouver or on another team.  The calculation doesn't change.  

 

The buyout cap hit is dependent on the actual cap hit (here 6M) and the remaining base salary owed.  The bonus payments still owed or already paid don't factor into the calculation of the buyout cap hit.

 

I know his cap hit is fixed, but the dollars wouldn't be.  To a team owned by a tightwad like say Melnyk could want a player with a high cap hit as long as he doesn't have to pay full cash dollars for him.  

 

Once the deal was inked, the cap hit was fixed.  Beyond that who actually pays hom the actual cash to Eriksson can be more complicated.  The 8m bonus paid july 1st leaves x dollars to be paid, less than his cap hit.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

13 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

I know his cap hit is fixed, but the dollars wouldn't be.  To a team owned by a tightwad like say Melnyk could want a player with a high cap hit as long as he doesn't have to pay full cash dollars for him.  

 

Once the deal was inked, the cap hit was fixed.  Beyond that who actually pays hom the actual cash to Eriksson can be more complicated.  The 8m bonus paid july 1st leaves x dollars to be paid, less than his cap hit.  

 

I’m not buying this idea that it’s going to be easy to move LE after his signing bonus’ have been paid.  The league is fill with front loaded contracts that teams are trying to get rid of.  Cheapo owners aren’t in the business of doing favors. The time of teams struggling to get to cap floor is over. It’s only July and every team is already over the floor.

 

But for other comparables:

 

Kovalchuk

6.25 million cap hit

2 years left

5 million owed

 

Backes

6 million cap hit

2 years left

5 million owed

 

Carter

5.272 million cap hit

3 years left

7 million owed

 

Eriksson 

6 million cap hit

3 years left

9 million owed

 

Ladd

5.5 million cap hit

4 years left

13 million owed

 

Lucic

6 million cap hit

4 years left

16 million owed

 

So if a team is looking for a friendly salary with a high cap hit. I don’t see what makes Eriksson more attractive than others. Add in his NMC and then his chances of moving are even smaller. If canucks want to move him we will have to add incentive. 

[stawns]

8 hours ago, Fan since 82 said:

This is the part that I don't get. He DOES just seem like he's going through the motions, and then to turn around and publicly complain about the situation? My recollections from Green's media time last year was he was always backing up Loui...except obviously leading up to and after the game where LE was a healthy scratch. He never threw Loui under the bus but always complimented him on 'the little things' that Loui did in game that most didn't notice. I think that even his team mates are going to have a hard time having him back after all of this.

Yet, the numbers don't really reinforce this media driven narrative.  Considering his ice time and deployment, his numbers indicate he's actually a decently contributing member of the team.  People are just hung up on a number

[stawns]

35 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

I know his cap hit is fixed, but the dollars wouldn't be.  To a team owned by a tightwad like say Melnyk could want a player with a high cap hit as long as he doesn't have to pay full cash dollars for him.  

 

Once the deal was inked, the cap hit was fixed.  Beyond that who actually pays hom the actual cash to Eriksson can be more complicated.  The 8m bonus paid july 1st leaves x dollars to be paid, less than his cap hit.  

If there was a deal there to be made, wouldn't it be made by now?

[mll]

42 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

I know his cap hit is fixed, but the dollars wouldn't be.  To a team owned by a tightwad like say Melnyk could want a player with a high cap hit as long as he doesn't have to pay full cash dollars for him.  

 

Once the deal was inked, the cap hit was fixed.  Beyond that who actually pays hom the actual cash to Eriksson can be more complicated.  The 8m bonus paid july 1st leaves x dollars to be paid, less than his cap hit.  

 

I was only reacting to the statement below that the buyout cap hit is more favourable if a team other than Vancouver buys him out.   It's the same buyout cap hit regardless of which team buys him out.  It's slightly higher next year 5.67M vs 5.55M then 3.67M / 0.67M x 2.

 

 

1 hour ago, Phat Fingers said:

Didn't think Eriksson would be bought out this year.  If a team just has to pay his salary and needs to add cap, then he is a serviceable player that could bounce back with a  change of scenery.  He would cost nothing to aquire and can be relayed upon to be a good two way guy and responsible.  

 

Next season that team could buy him out and not face the same hit as Vancouver would

  

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by mll

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, appleboy said:

Why would he leave $ on the table? He is due to get 9 mil over the next three years, once his bonus is paid. If they say he is going to Utica he may want out. Terminate contract.

You don't think he can make the nine mil with someone else? A fresh start. Someone will sign him. LE is worth 3 mil a year. He will give you 30 points and play PK .

It is up to his agent to figure out.

 

 

It would have to be in a different league. He won’t be allowed to sign another contract in the NHL until this one’s up.   I agree he’s worth that much here, maybe he can go back to Sweden and wait it out but doubt he’d get that much, in the KHL it’s possible I suppose.    Personally I think this thing is blown way out of proportion, Hull and Roenick said silly things about the game and sometimes about their teams all the time that we’re way more serious then answering a question honestly in a different country.  I know none of us are happy with his play, based on the cap hit at least, but really think we will be stuck with him for the duration.  Going to Utica could push him to leave, especially after a while, the Wedden rule keeps teams from burying bad contracts.   I’m not fond of guys retiring from the league still counting against the cap hit like Luongo.  But get that too.  Buying him out would be the worse possible scenario for the teams fortunes when everyone is in their prime and hate option the most.   Three more years.  Just use him and hope for the best.

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

I’m not buying this idea that it’s going to be easy to move LE after his signing bonus’ have been paid.  The league is fill with front loaded contracts that teams are trying to get rid of.  Cheapo owners aren’t in the business of doing favors. The time of teams struggling to get to cap floor is over. It’s only July and every team is already over the floor.

 

But for other comparables:

 

Kovalchuk

6.25 million cap hit

2 years left

5 million owed

 

Backes

6 million cap hit

2 years left

5 million owed

 

Carter

5.272 million cap hit

3 years left

7 million owed

 

Eriksson 

6 million cap hit

3 years left

9 million owed

 

Ladd

5.5 million cap hit

4 years left

13 million owed

 

Lucic

6 million cap hit

4 years left

16 million owed

 

So if a team is looking for a friendly salary with a high cap hit. I don’t see what makes Eriksson more attractive than others. Add in his NMC and then his chances of moving are even smaller. If canucks want to move him we will have to add incentive. 

Add Okposo, Foligno and Ryan to the list of underachievers.  Like these guys they have a varying degree of cap hit and term left...am sure some recent UFAs will also disappoint, maybe Hayes...

[Rob_Zepp]

On 7/20/2019 at 1:32 PM, Bert Diesel said:

Much of the recent criticism and negativity towards the team relates to the way in which Benning/Weisbrod have constructed the salary structure.

I only hear that criticism from people who don't seem to see a bigger picture since Linden was let go.    The CAP management and plan that Canucks seems to have is pretty sound and they seemingly are in far better shape than all but a handful of Western Conference teams in this regard.   

[higgyfan]

The 3m Luongo retirement package has made the LE situation far worse.  JB could really use that 3m right now (and for the next 3).

[Fan since 82]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Yet, the numbers don't really reinforce this media driven narrative.  Considering his ice time and deployment, his numbers indicate he's actually a decently contributing member of the team.  People are just hung up on a number

Yes true, but now with him coming out and publicly blaming the coach and his deployment for his poor offensive production makes him a bit of a dressing room problem. Up to last year he was regularly put in a position to succeed offensively but he just couldn't. He has played well as a 3rd liner both defensively and chipping in some goals here and there, but he's getting paid as a top 6 forward so yes unfortunately that's what people are going to focus on. He does seem to lack intensity on the ice but perhaps that his personality. I just hope he's not on the opening night roster.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Fan since 82 said:

Yes true, but now with him coming out and publicly blaming the coach and his deployment for his poor offensive production makes him a bit of a dressing room problem. Up to last year he was regularly put in a position to succeed offensively but he just couldn't. He has played well as a 3rd liner both defensively and chipping in some goals here and there, but he's getting paid as a top 6 forward so yes unfortunately that's what people are going to focus on. He does seem to lack intensity on the ice but perhaps that his personality. I just hope he's not on the opening night roster.

thats almost entirely media/"fan" driven.  JB didn't seem to think it was anything to be concerned about, so I'm not sure why fans and media care.  

[stawns]

8 minutes ago, Fan since 82 said:

Yes true, but now with him coming out and publicly blaming the coach and his deployment for his poor offensive production makes him a bit of a dressing room problem. Up to last year he was regularly put in a position to succeed offensively but he just couldn't. He has played well as a 3rd liner both defensively and chipping in some goals here and there, but he's getting paid as a top 6 forward so yes unfortunately that's what people are going to focus on. He does seem to lack intensity on the ice but perhaps that his personality. I just hope he's not on the opening night roster.

he doesn't say that, actually.  He says they don't get on 100% and that its hard to be in a position where the coach doesn't have the trust in him that other coaches have had.  He also states he enjoys playing and likes being in the west coast........not exactly the sordid tale that some "fans" like to spin.

[Fan since 82]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

he doesn't say that, actually.  He says they don't get on 100% and that its hard to be in a position where the coach doesn't have the trust in him that other coaches have had.  He also states he enjoys playing and likes being in the west coast........not exactly the sordid tale that some "fans" like to spin.

This fan will agree to disagree with you on that.

 

I don't think that LE is a bad enough player to not make our or any other NHL team so a demotion to the minors I think would be a bit petty. I know that is not what you are saying I'm just commenting on other posters statements that LE will be sent to Utica. 

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

For us, but if seeing as he just got his garuantee 8m bonus July 1st... whomever takes over the contract gets a buyout friendly deal as we have already taken the hit.  

You need to read the chart.  

 

We, or whomever takes him on in trade, achieve almost no cap savings the next 3 years buying him out.  

 

You are correct in understanding, there may be a cap floor team that trades for him. But he will most likely play.

[WeneedLumme]

5 hours ago, stawns said:

thats almost entirely media/"fan" driven.  JB didn't seem to think it was anything to be concerned about, so I'm not sure why fans and media care.  

Some people like to get worked up over tempests in teapots, and many in the media do their best to create said tempests, to get attention.

[Phat Fingers]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

You need to read the chart.  

 

We, or whomever takes him on in trade, achieve almost no cap savings the next 3 years buying him out.  

 

You are correct in understanding, there may be a cap floor team that trades for him. But he will most likely play.

Oops.  My bad.  Thanks for the polite correction.