[Proposal] Sutter for Pulujarvi

[JM_]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

JP is a guy who needs waivers to go to Utica.  Clearly he’d get claimed, right?  Where do we play him, so he can learn to play without the puck?  He’s horrible without the puck.  He’s horrible with the puck too, unless it’s in a clear offensive chance.  

Sutter, on the other hand, allows the Oilers to play RNH in a strictly offensive role.  Sutter gives the Oilers a significant piece they are missing to make them a whole lot better.

How does JP make us better?  

bingo bongo its Roberto Luongo. I've been pointing that out as well, if Sutlers healthy its a nice add for them. Too nice, 

 

If we did get JP we'd have to leave him in Finland for a season, and hope to try to sign him in a year. We'd have to find a deal for Goldy first unless we were willing to let him walk too. 

[hammertime]

9 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

I see this a little differently Alf

 

I think Sutter is expendable......both talent wise and for cap reasons, so moving Sutter is a good thing in itself...……….

 

Obtaining Poolparty should be considered obtaining a  high end prospect, and should be considered in the same vain as Baertschi was (only higher), and the fact that he is going back to Finland for a year, is good in that he doesn't have to clear waivers to go to the A.

 

All in all.....it is a wash, and if Edmonton needs us to carry cap, the difference is Khaira for carrying that 2 M per year (for 2 years), with us adding a small plus

 

Maybe I am being greedy, buy Khaira would look great on our bottom 6, so I think it is a win/win for each team

 

Does it happen? No, because we are in the same division and Edmonton could not afford for Poolparty to develop in their face, and he is safe in Finland for now

 

But I would make this trade in a New York minute

Good point my main reason for not being interested in JP is there is no where for him to play on the Canucks. But I suppose he could be left in Finland to develop the way he should have been from the start.  there is a chance he could turn it around. I feel like Sutters cap could still be re allocated in a more constructive way.

[Canuck Surfer]

Imagine Edmonton offering us Kris Russell for Juolevi?

 

This would the scale of stupid is, is stupid does response from the best and brightest Oilers fans (sic). To match the likelihood of us receiving Puljujarvi for Sutter.  

 

Worse. This thread has lasted 5 pages.  There are even responses that question whether we would want pool party in such a deal?

 

Embarrassing this proposal and thread. Just my opinion.

[JeremyCuddles]

11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Imagine Edmonton offering us Kris Russell for Juolevi?

 

This would the scale of stupid is, is stupid does response from the best and brightest Oilers fans (sic). To match the likelihood of us receiving Puljujarvi for Sutter.  

 

Worse. This thread has lasted 5 pages.  There are even responses that question whether we would want pool party in such a deal?

 

Embarrassing this proposal and thread. Just my opinion.

Are you trying to say Edmonton wouldn't give up a top 3 prospect (on their team) for our 25 point, 30 year old, often injured 3rd line center? Sounds like you're just a hater, Toronto fan. 

[Provost]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Imagine Edmonton offering us Kris Russell for Juolevi?

 

This would the scale of stupid is, is stupid does response from the best and brightest Oilers fans (sic). To match the likelihood of us receiving Puljujarvi for Sutter.  

 

Worse. This thread has lasted 5 pages.  There are even responses that question whether we would want pool party in such a deal?

 

Embarrassing this proposal and thread. Just my opinion.

There is zero comparison between Juolevi and Puljujarvi.  That is just an embarrassing bit of flawed logic with no justification or basis rationale thought.  Just my opinion.

Puljujarvi has played 139 games in the NHL and scored 17 total goals and 37 points and was drafted as an offensive point producing player... that is about half of Patrik Stefan's career PPG scoring rate.  That is less than half of Alexandre Daigle's point production over his first three years in the league.  He is also holding out and refuses to play for them.

His draft position is pretty meaningless at this point.  If he hadn't been a 1st round pick, he would no longer have a job in the league.  His ONLY value is the hope that another team can get something more out of him than the Oiler's inept organization has.

Juolevi hasn't even started his career yet, never mind already well down the road towards a bust category like Puljujarvi is.

A better comparable to Puljujarvi is Baertschi (13th overall pick) who was traded at a similar age but had double the PPG production than Puljujarvi when we got him.  We traded him for just a 2nd round pick, and that was without any sort of hold out pressure.  Puljujarvi has been markedly worse than Baertschi had been at the same point, but he also has the cache of being a somewhat higher 1st round pick... so their value wouldn't be too far off.  In this situation probably less because of the hold out and the fact Edmonton REALLY needs a 3C and no free agent will agree to go there unless they are more overpaid than Sutter is.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Provost said:

There is zero comparison between Juolevi and Puljujarvi.  That is just an embarrassing bit of flawed logic with no justification or basis rationale thought.  Just my opinion.

Puljujarvi has played 139 games in the NHL and scored 17 total goals and 37 points and was drafted as an offensive point producing player... that is about half of Patrik Stefan's career PPG scoring rate.  That is less than half of Alexandre Daigle's point production over his first three years in the league.  He is also holding out and refuses to play for them.

His draft position is pretty meaningless at this point.  If he hadn't been a 1st round pick, he would no longer have a job in the league.  His ONLY value is the hope that another team can get something more out of him than the Oiler's inept organization has.

Juolevi hasn't even started his career yet, never mind already well down the road towards a bust category like Puljujarvi is.

A better comparable to Puljujarvi is Baertschi (13th overall pick) who was traded at a similar age but had double the PPG production than Puljujarvi when we got him.  We traded him for just a 2nd round pick, and that was without any sort of hold out pressure.  Puljujarvi has been markedly worse than Baertschi had been at the same point, but he also has the cache of being a somewhat higher 1st round pick... so their value wouldn't be too far off.  In this situation probably less because of the hold out and the fact Edmonton REALLY needs a 3C and no free agent will agree to go there unless they are more overpaid than Sutter is.

 

Juolevi & Puljujarvi were 5th and 4th overall.

 

We paid, by memory, the 2knd that is becoming Rasmus Anderson.  Calgary has a potential 10 year core player.  Good on Calgary for making the risk of moving a 13th overall.  But Baer was not the prospect Pulli was. I don't believe, at this stage we can get a 2knd for Sutter.

[Provost]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Juolevi & Puljujarvi were 5th and 4th overall.

 

We paid, by memory, the 2knd that is becoming Rasmus Anderson.  Calgary has a potential 10 year core player.  Good on Calgary for making the risk of moving a 13th overall.  But Baer was not the prospect Pulli was. I don't believe, at this stage we can get a 2knd for Sutter.

A player’s draft position has less and less to do with their value as they play more in the league.

 

By your logic there is no way that Edmonton would  even consider trading Puljujarvi for Boeser because Boeser was drafted WAY lower.

 

It is just a dumb position to take.

 

Sutter wouldn’t likely get us a 2nd from most teams.  Edmonton though has a new GM who hasn’t been able to make many substantial moves and is facing wasting another year of McDavid’s prime with a gaping hole in their 3C position.  Puljujarvi is providing them nothing, and if they had any great offers he would have been traded already.  Sutter lets Holland save face on it by getting a needed roster player, and one from a legendary family from the outskirts of Edmonton.

 

This is a move that both teams could absolutely market as wins.

[D-Money]

With the season he just had, and his injury history, we won't get squat for Sutter. We'd have to pay a team to take his 2 x $4.375M salary.

 

If he comes back solid this season, maybe we could turn him into a mid/late pick, but I'm not counting on it.

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Provost said:

A player’s draft position has less and less to do with their value as they play more in the league.

 

By your logic there is no way that Edmonton would  even consider trading Puljujarvi for Boeser because Boeser was drafted WAY lower.

 

It is just a dumb position to take.

 

Sutter wouldn’t likely get us a 2nd from most teams.  Edmonton though has a new GM who hasn’t been able to make many substantial moves and is facing wasting another year of McDavid’s prime with a gaping hole in their 3C position.  Puljujarvi is providing them nothing, and if they had any great offers he would have been traded already.  Sutter lets Holland save face on it by getting a needed roster player, and one from a legendary family from the outskirts of Edmonton.

 

This is a move that both teams could absolutely market as wins.

No, it was reasonably similar. Pool party was a top 3 prospect in the world. Juolevi top 3 defenceman in his draft. As agreed by virtually the entire reported scouting and media world. We're not going to trade Olli for a declining, injury prone, expensive over 30 veteran with an NTC. Getting to the point he is struggling to stay in the line up.  That was the comparison.

 

I have no idea why an argument I did not make, Boeser, changes that one lick. Or your belief Baer may have compared at a prospect level? I don't care.

 

Edmonton is not going to trade Puljujarvi for a declining expensive veteran. It is just my opinion, but so be it. You can argue they will. 

 

Good luck with that.

[mikeyman109]

18 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Edmonton is not going to trade Puljujarvi for a declining expensive veteran. It is just my opinion, but so be it. You can argue they will. 

 

this is the crux of the argument.

[Alflives]

On 8/25/2019 at 8:39 AM, Canuck Surfer said:

Imagine Edmonton offering us Kris Russell for Juolevi?

 

This would the scale of stupid is, is stupid does response from the best and brightest Oilers fans (sic). To match the likelihood of us receiving Puljujarvi for Sutter.  

 

Worse. This thread has lasted 5 pages.  There are even responses that question whether we would want pool party in such a deal?

 

Embarrassing this proposal and thread. Just my opinion.

Is OJ waiver eligible?  Big difference between OJ and JP.  OJ is still a young prospect, who can be sent to the minors for more development.  JP needs waivers, and has shown he still needs AHL development.  He’s actually shown he’s not (yet) an NHL player while playing up with the Oilers.  

The Oilers could use Sutter.  They need a checking centre to take that weight off RNH.  Sutter makes the Oilers a much better team.  Russel has no spot here.  He in no way helps us.  

If JB offered Sutter for Puljujarvi Holland would happily accept.  

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

Is OJ waiver eligible?  Big difference between OJ and JP.  OJ is still a young prospect, who can be sent to the minors for more development.  JP needs waivers, and has shown he still needs AHL development.  He’s actually shown he’s not (yet) an NHL player while playing up with the Oilers.  

The Oilers could use Sutter.  They need a checking centre to take that weight off RNH.  Sutter makes the Oilers a much better team.  Russel has no spot here.  He in no way helps us.  

If JB offered Sutter for Puljujarvi Holland would happily accept.  

Among other reasons the concept is dumb?

 

Edmonton has $2.5 mill in cap space. Sutter has well over $4mill in salary with a 23 man full roster. They can't afford Sutter. And we cant afford to sign Boeser, and pay Puljujarvi over the league minimum if we retain 1/2 his salary. Holland will wait out Puljujarvi.  Until a team offers 1st round calibre assets, likely an exciting ELC D man.

 

Drooling over your fur is not a good look Alf. Nor are they going to put him on waivers.  Its a non issue.

 

 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Among other reasons the concept is dumb?

 

Edmonton has $2.5 mill in cap space. Sutter has well over $4mill in salary with a 23 man full roster. They can't afford Sutter. And we cant afford to sign Boeser, and pay Puljujarvi over the league minimum if we retain 1/2 his salary. Holland will wait out Puljujarvi.  Until a team offers 1st round calibre assets, likely an exciting ELC D man.

 

Drooling over your fur is not a good look Alf. Nor are they going to put him on waivers.  Its a non issue.

 

 

I don’t want JP, and I’m pretty sure Benning doesn’t want him either.

And my drooling is my own business!  

You're fun Surfer.  I appreciate that. 

[The_Rocket]

14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

Edmonton has $2.5 mill in cap space. Sutter has well over $4mill in salary with a 23 man full roster. They can't afford Sutter. And we cant afford to sign Boeser, and pay Puljujarvi over the league minimum if we retain 1/2 his salary. 

 

 

Uhhhh yes we can afford that? We actually gain cap space in this scenario and we already have enough room to sign brock. How does more cap space make it more difficult to sign him?

 

also, I think you’re missing the mark on how much value puljujarvi has at this point. While he was a high pick with lots of offensive potential, he has regressed every year since his draft year, has gone through substantial injury problems, lost all his confidence, requires waivers, has demanded a trade, and has a poor attitude. We’ve seen high picks in similar situations be traded for less than a 50% retained Sutter. 

 

Yakupov comes to mind

[Canuck Surfer]

20 minutes ago, The_Rocket said:

Uhhhh yes we can afford that? We actually gain cap space in this scenario and we already have enough room to sign brock. How does more cap space make it more difficult to sign him?

 

also, I think you’re missing the mark on how much value puljujarvi has at this point. While he was a high pick with lots of offensive potential, he has regressed every year since his draft year, has gone through substantial injury problems, lost all his confidence, requires waivers, has demanded a trade, and has a poor attitude. We’ve seen high picks in similar situations be traded for less than a 50% retained Sutter. 

 

Yakupov comes to mind

Sutter's $4.375 mill x 0.5 = 2.185 mill retained. Add a body at $1 mill, presumably Puljujarvi?  I suppose we have a little over $1.3 mill gained.

 

What are the odd's pool party forces a trade and signes for $1 mill?

 

Does not make such a trade any more likely. 

 

If you are Edmonton, are you going to trade Puljujarvi for a guy who scored 6 points and played 26 games last year...

 

Nope.

 

Would Edmonton take or give a 5th round pick to take on Sutter at 50%?  Maybe!

 

I would not even then if I were them? Sign a PTO & they signed two Euro UFA's Haas & Nygard to place-hold. Take your lumps, see what a new coach gets out his crew.  See how the team does with a healthy Klefbom, their Edler. With Evan Bouchard to help their PP, add some size to the back end. He's coming this year. Benson and Yamamoto will also arrive at some point this year. Extra speed & puck skill. They have holes, depth issues & poor goaltending. Which quite likely will break them.  But better top end talent than a lot of play off teams. Get those components firing and they will show flashes this year IMO.

 

They have a very good AHL squad in Bakersfield. There is room to consider that several pieces will become ^^^ that depth by next season. Even if they don't arrive this.

 

Missing the play off's & getting another lottery pick next year would not be a bad outcome all things considered.  Within a year or so Edmonton will be very good.

 

And I fully expect them to get a good young D man, Jake Bean maybe if Carolina re-signs Faulk. As compensation for Puljujarvi, who could be reunited with Sebastian Aho. 

[Junkyard Dog]

If Sutter's healthy he is a good fit in EDM.

 

Shutdown Center who can score goals and win draws. Would help their PK out and take less responsibility off their top guys defensively.

 

Not sure Sutter alone nabs Jesse, especially given his health issues. 

[Provost]

16 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Among other reasons the concept is dumb?

 

Edmonton has $2.5 mill in cap space. Sutter has well over $4mill in salary with a 23 man full roster. They can't afford Sutter. And we cant afford to sign Boeser, and pay Puljujarvi over the league minimum if we retain 1/2 his salary. Holland will wait out Puljujarvi.  Until a team offers 1st round calibre assets, likely an exciting ELC D man.

 

Drooling over your fur is not a good look Alf. Nor are they going to put him on waivers.  Its a non issue.

 

 

Well the proposal did say that we would have to take back some salary... both teams have enough cap space right now, there isn't some sort of magic math where they both end up without enough cap space by switching around players.

We take back Khaira for instances as mentioned above, or someone with similar money.  That means a net increase of $3.175 to the Oilers and an equal reduction to us.  That means the Oilers have to do only a tiny amount of shuffling to fit it in like run a 22 man roster or move out a player making league minimum.  Or they could swap Benning for Biega, or a dozen other choices to mean they only take on a net of a couple million salary 

We would have plenty of money to sign Puljujarvi and Boeser because any scenario means we at least net out to the same money. 

 

You are ignoring that the Oilers actually need to get players as well as being in a cap crunch.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Provost

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, Provost said:

You are ignoring that the Oilers actually need to get players as well as being in a cap crunch.

They can sign Riley Sheahan for 1/2 of Sutter's 50% retained salary. He is 3 years younger than Sutter. Do Devente Smith Pelle to a PTO.

 

Not give up a recent lottery pick doing it.

 

It is a dumb proposal Sutter for Puljujarvi. Dumb is dumb.

 

We never got a first round pick back for Keith Ballard.  Nobody traded us Taylor Hall for Chris Tanev.  This wont happen either. 

[Provost]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

It is a dumb proposal Sutter for Puljujarvi. Dumb is dumb.

Well you seem to be an expert in it, having lived it your entire life...

 

... comparing Puljujarvi to Taylor Hall.... haha slow down eating those lead paint chips there buckaroo....

 

Also, that is a terrible example to bring up considering he was traded for a below average #4 D.... hahahaha

[Canuck Surfer]

On 8/29/2019 at 11:01 AM, Provost said:

Well you seem to be an expert in it, having lived it your entire life...

 

... comparing Puljujarvi to Taylor Hall.... haha slow down eating those lead paint chips there buckaroo....

 

Also, that is a terrible example to bring up considering he was traded for a below average #4 D.... hahahaha

The comparison was Sutter being on the laundry list of CDC  wet dream trade returns that never happened, never will.