A Game Of Thrones: To the point of the TV show, no spoilers beyond that

[flat land fish]

I wonder if some of the pace has been dictated by how complete the source material is on the book side.  With the cluster of big events happening it does leave less time for character development but for those that whine about Danny going mad queen she has been ruthless for a long time and against people she had less reason to hate than those in Westeros just was always painted as a liberator rather than a conqueror.

[Down by the River]

1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

In fact, it's so rushed that the editors don't have time to do their jobs...

 

 

First it was the Starbucks cup....now Jaime regrew his hand just in time to have Kings Landing fall on his head. #justcantcatchabreak

nvm

Edited May 13, 2019 by Down by the River

[Down by the River]

5 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

I wonder if some of the pace has been dictated by how complete the source material is on the book side.  With the cluster of big events happening it does leave less time for character development but for those that whine about Danny going mad queen she has been ruthless for a long time and against people she had less reason to hate than those in Westeros just was always painted as a liberator rather than a conqueror.

But not towards children.

[Tre Mac]

13 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

So many things seemed pointless due to the rushed pace of this season. The Golden Company: pointless. The entire Dorne arc: pointless. Varys' past two seasons: pointless, uless you consider his being burned alive by Drogon as an effective manner to make us believe that Dany has gone off the deep end....

That's bad but to me not as bad as just completely throwing arc's or whatever you want to call it out the window.  The whole scene with Jaime and Brienne in the tub where we all finally felt sympathy for him was thrown out the window because suddenly he doesn't care about the innocent.  I can get not having enough time to wrap up all the loose ends, happens in every show, but when everything is 'out of character' it just becomes a mess.

 

I just hope they handle the spin-offs better.  

[Tre Mac]

8 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

I wonder if some of the pace has been dictated by how complete the source material is on the book side.  With the cluster of big events happening it does leave less time for character development but for those that whine about Danny going mad queen she has been ruthless for a long time and against people she had less reason to hate than those in Westeros just was always painted as a liberator rather than a conqueror.

She becomes a mess when she doesn't get laid, happens to the best of us.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Tre Mac

[Generational.EP40]

Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen has always been the ultimate bad guy. This was what Martin intended. He built the character up. Made us root for her only to make her into the greatest villain of them all. It’s so &^@#ed up it’s brilliant! I find it funny people didn’t see this coming. 

 

 

 

...let’s not forget what Missandei’s last words were too which we now know were meant directly towards Daenerys and a foreshadow.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Generational.EP40

[canuckistani]

17 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

She becomes a mess when she doesn't get laid, happens to the best of us.

True. 

And i wish Jon was more clear about this. Instead he is planting ideas into Danny's head (as sudden sexual rejection from a partner does to 99.99999% people) that maybe its coz she is cray-cray or maybe coz he is jealous of her power and his claim, etc. He should've just been like 'look, you are hot, i love ya and i love boning you, but that was before i found out you are my aunt. in westeros, incest is not done and its pretty much why this whole war of 5 kings happened- due to incest claims- only our families did it in history of westeros and there were rebellions and sneers still - against the most powerful dynasty ever to rule this land- and i grew up as a Stark, where seeing your aunt naked is a boner killer, so you can imagine what its like to think of all the blowjobs i got from my aunt flashing into my head all the time'.

 

Danny would've gone 'balls. this sucks, but understandable' at the very least.

 

[UFCanuck]

Jon should've just bit the bullet and banged his aunt one more time. 

[canuckistani]

24 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

But not towards children.

Yes and no. When Danny said to the unsullied 'kill the masters', its implied that she sacked Astapor, women, children and men alike - the masters are a social class, not just the guy who owns the slaves. It wasn't showed on screen specifically but its implied that toddler Drogon laid that city to waste. 

 

[RUPERTKBD]

31 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

I wonder if some of the pace has been dictated by how complete the source material is on the book side.  With the cluster of big events happening it does leave less time for character development but for those that whine about Danny going mad queen she has been ruthless for a long time and against people she had less reason to hate than those in Westeros just was always painted as a liberator rather than a conqueror.

Her actions in KL were different than her previous "ruthless" actions.

 

When she had the masters crucified, it was in response to their crucifixion of innocent slave children. When she told the Unsullied to kill the masters in Astapor, it was in response to the injustice of slavery. When she executed the Tarlys, she first gave them the opportunity to join her cause. When she burned ships and soldiers, it was war.

 

However, the burning of King's Landing had nothing to do with justice, or the winning of a war. It was murder, plain and simple and even though the show writers have been trying to persuade us that Dany had reason to go full Mad Queen, I think it was out of character.

 

Maybe if they had given us a full season of the War for the Iron Throne, they could have built a convincing narrative to that respect, but they full woefully short of doing so, IMHO.

[xereau]

13 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

In the books a disease takes over the slavers army outside Merene and it's called 'the pale mare'.  I think it's just to symbolize death.....that is now coming for Dany 

Book of Revelations:  I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

[RUPERTKBD]

11 minutes ago, playboi19 said:

Jon should've just bit the bullet and banged his aunt one more time. 

Word.

 

Take one for the Team, FFS Jon.....

[canuckistani]

17 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Her actions in KL were different than her previous "ruthless" actions.

 

When she had the masters crucified, it was in response to their crucifixion of innocent slave children. When she told the Unsullied to kill the masters in Astapor, it was in response to the injustice of slavery. When she executed the Tarlys, she first gave them the opportunity to join her cause. When she burned ships and soldiers, it was war.

 

However, the burning of King's Landing had nothing to do with justice, or the winning of a war. It was murder, plain and simple and even though the show writers have been trying to persuade us that Dany had reason to go full Mad Queen, I think it was out of character.

 

Maybe if they had given us a full season of the War for the Iron Throne, they could have built a convincing narrative to that respect, but they full woefully short of doing so, IMHO.

Actually, her reasons for burning KL makes perfect sense from a military perspective as well. What the show is doing, is proving to us that D&D are not good at historical fiction. 

After the initial years of Mongol conquests, the Mongols established a remarkable precedent - zero rebellions from the conquered people. For 200 years after Genghis Khan and his son Ogedei, the only rebellions the directly conquered Mongol domains ever saw was one Mongol claimant rebelling against his overlord. The way Mongols did it, is the 'sack of KL' method - they'd come, completely ravage your city, kill everyone who is not a hot chick or an artisan ( recruited into sex slavery or shipped off to build stuff for the mongols), destroyed every single house in the said city and outside of it, erected neatly ordered skull mountains of human skull, cattle skull, cat skulls, dog skulls, donkey skulls etc. 

 

Its a stark reminder to rebellion - if you don't succeed, every living thing dies of is enslaved and every single dwelling is demolished. Worked. They could've easily worked that angle in and it'd be believable. 

[DrJockitch]

The nature of this series or any beloved series is that people are going to be disappointed with how it ends.  

I do feel that the writing is clumsy this season and last.  They have played on too thickly with the mad queen story to the point I thought it was mis-direction.

The show is not meant to be kind to anyone.  Nobody is all good or all bad. Even John suffers from the blunt, blind sense of honour that did Ned in.

One thing I did love with this episode is something the show does with everyone.  They raise them up and tear them down again.  Everyone gets their comeuppance.  Last night was Arya.  They raised her up, the faceless man who killed death, the hero of Winterfell and of all humanity gets completely humanized again.  All the training in the world doesn't help when a city is collapsing around you.  

GRRM and D&D don't believe in meeting expectations.  Yes we got Cleganebowl but what everyone wanted to know was who was going to kill Cersei and they tore those expectations away and buried them in a pile of rubble.

I would also say that Varys got the ending that he deserved.  He spread the word that John was the new Egg and was knowingly signing his death warrant and committing treason.  He whispered his whispers and payed the price he was promised it was him or Tyrion and Tyrion played the game and won.  It was a little clumsy and rushed but that is how this season has been.

So, can someone go so dark and end up being the hero.  Can Danny be redeemed or does she even need to be if she holds the power.  The burning of King's Landing is Nagasaki.  The American's never had to pay for that and still consider themselves to be the good guys in the world and the heroes of WW2.

[flat land fish]

14 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Her actions in KL were different than her previous "ruthless" actions.

 

When she had the masters crucified, it was in response to their crucifixion of innocent slave children. When she told the Unsullied to kill the masters in Astapor, it was in response to the injustice of slavery. When she executed the Tarlys, she first gave them the opportunity to join her cause. When she burned ships and soldiers, it was war.

 

However, the burning of King's Landing had nothing to do with justice, or the winning of a war. It was murder, plain and simple and even though the show writers have been trying to persuade us that Dany had reason to go full Mad Queen, I think it was out of character.

 

Maybe if they had given us a full season of the War for the Iron Throne, they could have built a convincing narrative to that respect, but they full woefully short of doing so, IMHO.

There’s an interesting dynamic in that other than birth right and or revenge what was the purpose of crossing the narrow sea and conquering Westeros.  You made some good points on the past conquests had purpose or an end game that benefited others besides Dany.  The play to conquer Westeros is about power and revenge which is more corruptable.  Generally speaking there hasn’t been a lot of narrative about the common people of Westeros suffering during the series more so the elite fighting for control and power for personal desire.  

[DrJockitch]

4 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

There’s an interesting dynamic in that other than birth right and or revenge what was the purpose of crossing the narrow sea and conquering Westeros.  You made some good points on the past conquests had purpose or an end game that benefited others besides Dany.  The play to conquer Westeros is about power and revenge which is more corruptable.  Generally speaking there hasn’t been a lot of narrative about the common people of Westeros suffering during the series more so the elite fighting for control and power for personal desire.  

I think there was actually a very Trumpian moment in there that showed why.  Throughout her life she was told that people were holding secret toasts to her praying for her return (or her brothers when he was alive).  It is when she discovered there was no love for her and that they loved John more she decided they were fodder to her fire.  Fear it is since there is no love.  

Like Trump if you don't love her than you have no value.

[RUPERTKBD]

14 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Actually, her reasons for burning KL makes perfect sense from a military perspective as well. What the show is doing, is proving to us that D&D are not good at historical fiction. 

After the initial years of Mongol conquests, the Mongols established a remarkable precedent - zero rebellions from the conquered people. For 200 years after Genghis Khan and his son Ogedei, the only rebellions the directly conquered Mongol domains ever saw was one Mongol claimant rebelling against his overlord. The way Mongols did it, is the 'sack of KL' method - they'd come, completely ravage your city, kill everyone who is not a hot chick or an artisan ( recruited into sex slavery or shipped off to build stuff for the mongols), destroyed every single house in the said city and outside of it, erected neatly ordered skull mountains of human skull, cattle skull, cat skulls, dog skulls, donkey skulls etc. 

 

Its a stark reminder to rebellion - if you don't succeed, every living thing dies of is enslaved and every single dwelling is demolished. Worked. They could've easily worked that angle in and it'd be believable. 

Maybe. But the point was that up to this point, she hasn't been doing the militarily expedient thing. If that were the case, she would have flown in and burned KL to the ground before they had scorpions and while she still had three dragons.

[canuckistani]

6 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Maybe. But the point was that up to this point, she hasn't been doing the militarily expedient thing. If that were the case, she would have flown in and burned KL to the ground before they had scorpions and while she still had three dragons.

Yeah. But you could also argue that with 3 grown dragons, the greatest cavalry ever seen ( dothraki) and the most fearsome infantry ever ( unsullied, who in the books,even the Dothraki give a wide berth to), she had overwhelming military dominance, where she could've chosen a less military optimal scenario and gone for the PR. Once her advantage dwindled after the zombie-war, it makes more sense to go to what works over what would've looked nice. 

 

[RUPERTKBD]

3 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Yeah. But you could also argue that with 3 grown dragons, the greatest cavalry ever seen ( dothraki) and the most fearsome infantry ever ( unsullied, who in the books,even the Dothraki give a wide berth to), she had overwhelming military dominance, where she could've chosen a less military optimal scenario and gone for the PR. Once her advantage dwindled after the zombie-war, it makes more sense to go to what works over what would've looked nice. 

 

Except that she already had it. The bells were ringing. She knew what that meant, but elected to burn thousands of innocent people anyway. It was out of character.

[canuckistani]

4 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Except that she already had it. The bells were ringing. She knew what that meant, but elected to burn thousands of innocent people anyway. It was out of character.

I don't like that bell ringing element at all. Could be a freaked out kid for all we know. Its a damn church bell, not Cercei's secret surrender morse code from the bell tower in the castle. 

And even if so, well thats where the 'mongol way' comes into play. All in all i find burning KL to be least of the crazy/nonsensical things she's done this season.