Smashian Kassian Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Again, that's a lot of subjective arguments that are based on how you feel, versus what may actually be happening. As I've mentioned, there's always some basis in truth, but that doesn't mean Sutter is outcoaching him just because his players have scored more goals, particularly when they're off our mistakes. The same goes for other series where we've lost, considering the original point about the better puck possession team being most likely to win a series. We've had games where we've been off one period but excellent the rest, or times when we've had 10 minutes of sustained pressure in either end where we've kept out goals or scored them when needed. It hasn't happened in this series, and sometimes that's all it is if we don't get bounces or aren't smart with the opportunities we have. There's only so much coaching done on an individual basis at this level. Certainly players look at tape to see what they're doing wrong and the coaches give any system adjustments, but not all coaches are motivators. Not all teams need motivation to be successful, either, but rather need the technical insight to adjust and try and win. Perhaps this team isn't fine with the leadership on the ice controlling motivation versus having the coach do so, and that might be a reason to not keep AV, but that doesn't mean he's being outcoached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erkayloomeh Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think AV is a great coach but even great coaches have there flaws and his seem to be rearing there ugly head. Like the players he has to improve with experience and there are some things i just dont understand like the playing of Raymond on the second line. If its broke fix it. Raymonds broke. I dont get the logic? Last years playoffs when our D was so banged up and still not playing Ballard. I dont get the logic? Not giving Schnieds more of a chnace when lou was struggling in last years playoffs i dont get that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdnucksfan Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Those are also the only two series where the Canucks showed they were the vastly superior team. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Does AV get outcoached? Sometimes perhaps. In Boston last year I think he was, he didn't make any adjustments to counter the Bruins hard play. But there are many other factors. Last year, injuries destroyed the team and in the end, the players on the ice have to make it happen. Was he outcoached against LA? I don't think so. The statistics show it. Game one we were outplayed. AV made some changes for games 2 and 3 (including matching Kesler against Kopitar, Switching the top line around) and proceeded to dominate the Kings in those games. Terrible mistakes made by the players cost them game 2, and luck essentially did not go there way in game 3. Game 3 was probably the most complete Canuck playoff game ever in the "AV" era. They controlled the game from start to finish. It just didn't happen. Could AV have done anything differently this series? I would say no. It just isn't going the Canucks way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Blaming AV is the easy thing to do. I definitely agree 100% with the original post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossram Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 he made terrible line up deicsions that cost us game 1...good adjustments for game 2 yes but that doesnt take away from the fact mason raymond was on the top line when he should be a healthy scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_devil Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 The whole coaching staff is out coached. They have a very gifted team that excells in the regular season. But when the intensity ramps up you can not win with skill alone. The power play, break outs, the defence positioning are all coaching decisions. Regular season are skilled players make up for lack of coaching with there skill. Now that LA has ramped up there intensity and droped into a trapping situation. Our boys aren't being or werent coached to deal with it. You can't tell me all the defencive missed assignments are all on the players, or lack of a power play is all Daniel Sedin. Its called lack of coaching plain and simple. Let's hope are chance a at cup doesn't run out because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I think AV is a real good coach but its time for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_devil Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Here's a few reason for you. Av leaves Lu in net way too long to many times affecting his metal state. Listen to LU to decide whether or not to pull him. Barely ever calling in the back up till the team has given up. For fun how about never calling a time out after two quick goals are called. How many years have the shot from the outside instead of going to the net. When have you ever heard of a play he came up with in the playoffs Keeping Raymond on the ice. That's just the begining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauii Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 The Canucks' slow start, and maybe early finish, to this playoff round is the result of a few factors involving the players, management and coaching. I believe the coaching staff failed to properly prepare the team for LA. Whatver the game plan has been, the coaching staff has not shown an ability to adjust when the plan wasn't working. I also have long had a problem with Vigneault's constant line juggling. True, all players should be able to play with all other players, but it seems every practice and game sees new combinations. I know with key players out it forces changes, but I find it frustrating that the players seem to get little chance to develop any kind of comfort level with their linemates. I believe Vigneault has given too much control to the leadership group and doesn't know how to take it back. Example: Why can't he get Lapierre to shut his yap when it is obvious that it is probably hurting the team? The players, for whatever reason, appear to have taken LA too lightly and I really believe they were mostly looking at returning to the Cup Final. I also believe the only players who have truly elevated their game are Hamhuis, Henrik, Hansen and Tanev. Everyone else seems to be in a Kesler-like pout, or have suffered an inexplicable loss of confidence, like Edler, Raymond, Booth, Kesler and HIggins. In short, they have come to believe their own press clippings. Management has not provided two elements that a team needs to win; a game-breaking forward and a Number One, stud defenceman. Gillis Talks about bold moves, Paul Holmgren in Philly actually makes bold moves and isn't afraid to move stars out to improve his team. Maybe Gillis needs to either add to the core leadership group, or break it apart. Maybe it is time to move Luongo and keep Schneider or move Kesler and Bieksa. This is a great team for the regular season, but can it win a Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperReverb2 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 In a word: YES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanutflower Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Excellent point. Last year after we lost, I heard people say "AV was outcoached by Julien" many many times. But not once did I hear anyone say that AV out coached McLellan, Quenneville or Trotz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suolucidir Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Yes he does, I can't remember a series where he has out coached anyone. Maybe you could make an argument that he did against St.Louis in 09 but that's all I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I'm only surprised we don't have the geniuses yet who, with a straight face, say AV gets outcoached because he chews gum, doesn't call enough timeouts, and doesn't scream (like Boudreau and Julien) until his head explodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onions Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I do blame AV for just one thing, not starting with Cory in game 6 or even 4 in the SCF last year. I understand that AV isn't to blame in these 3 games vs the Kings but he might be on the chopping block simply because the players may need a change of perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 One thing I noticed last game were the forwards cutting to the middle, drawing double-coverage, and making a backwards-pass to the point, and the player would immediately carry the puck up the boards where the coverage was vacated. It was quite effective...but it made me wonder why it took them to game 3 to start using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeria Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I've said it at least 100 times before: "Outcoached" is a buzzword people who don't understand what coaching a professional hockey team is all about like to use to try and explain the fact that their favorite team lost, or is losing a series. The OP was correct. The better team did win all three Chicago-Vancouver series and last season, Boston was better, due to injuries and superior goaltending. Vancouver has a 30 shot advantage over LA in this series, yet CDC geniuses claim Sutter is "outcoaching" AV. "Sit back and let the opposition shoot at will, hope some of them hit the crowd of four guys standing in front and barring that. hope your goaltender continues to stand on his head".... ...hard to argue with such a brilliant strategy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I think it's effective when it works though.. Montreal did that against Washington and Pittsburgh and Halak was seemingly unbeatable in those series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vansicle Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 AV's style wins awards and trophies. Last season it almost won the Stanley Cup, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that any NHL coach could have coached them to the brink last season, given how stacked they were. And those who say it's not AV's responsibility to get the players to show up to play are the real dolts. It is absolutely, unequivically his job to do so, just as it is his job to find a winning strategy if his isn't working. Yes, he made a couple of adjustments, but the forest for the trees rule applies here. You can't expect to make a few minor adjustments and suddenly win it all. You have to take a look at the whole system and make some big moves when you are getting outscored 2-1 every game. It's time for a change, either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 People say this but never quantify what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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