This should give us cause for concern.....

[Baggins]

Fine Baggins. but what's paid is paid and we are talking about the present and the mess we are now in as opposed to the mess Detroit ARE NOT in.

You can spin it any way you like but that is the bottom line. Not only that but we are talking about average quality players with NTC's who will be hard to move against Detroit players (who with their pedigree they probably won't want to move anyway) that are probably welcomed by other teams at these salaries.

Not like you to miss the big picture. "The cause for concern"

[CanucksJay]

Pretty interesting.

The heat is definitely on Gillis. (Pains me to say as I've been a huge Gillis fan)

If Gillis fires AV, the pressure REALLY is on MG as the AV haters like me who think a coach will make the world of difference will turn on MG if there is no improvement (or God forbid, even worse performance). MG will then be exposed as building a poor team and mismanaging the cap, players ,etc.

However, if he hires a new coach and the Canucks look drastically better, then MG can basically throw AV under the bus and say AV misused the talent that he assembled (which most of us are saying) We can then all pat ourselves on the back...

Now if MG is not sure, he will keep AV and hope that it buys him one more year. If the Canucks under perform again he then fires AV. However, if this were to happen, I'd hope Aquaman fire both before that happens.

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

Man, I didnt know Zetterberg made less than the Sedins. He hits and blocks shots too (4 and 3 in last night's game, respectively). What a bummer.

Hey Detroit is probably super cheap to live in compared to Vancouver. Does anyone think that might be a factor when it comes time to ink a contract?

[Bodee]

Pretty interesting.

The heat is definitely on Gillis. (Pains me to say as I've been a huge Gillis fan)

If Gillis fires AV, the pressure REALLY is on MG as the AV haters like me who think a coach will make the world of difference will turn on MG if there is no improvement (or God forbid, even worse performance). MG will then be exposed as building a poor team and mismanaging the cap, players ,etc.

However, if he hires a new coach and the Canucks look drastically better, then MG can basically throw AV under the bus and say AV misused the talent that he assembled (which most of us are saying) We can then all pat ourselves on the back...

Now if MG is not sure, he will keep AV and hope that it buys him one more year. If the Canucks under perform again he then fires AV. However, if this were to happen, I'd hope Aquaman fire both before that happens.

[Bodee]

Well a little objectivity goes a long way. You can't compare cap hits signed under different cap limits without taking it into consideration at all. As cap goes up salaries go up and market values change as a result. Just as you can't compare cap hits of "till death do us part" deals that end with cap reducers to the cap hit of a standard four or five year deal. You're comparing apples and oranges. You also have to consider whether a deal is RFA or UFA deal as the UFA's have more bargaining power.

Ntc's are offered to get a better deal. Why would a player leave money on the table for a team knowing he could be traded to Columbus the next day? That's the trade off, less money for the ntc. The ntc doesn't mean the player can't be moved but it does leave it up to him. I see the ntc deal as lower risk than the till deal do us part deals.

You ignore these things because they don't work for your Gillis must go agenda. Frankly I don't think we're in as big a mess as you are making out. I don't care if a contract needs to be bought out. We're certainly not the only team that will use that option. Nor will we be the only team to lose somebody to free agency. We'll be under the cap next season and there will be some new faces. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what's done.

[oldnews]

"Twice the player" is being pretty generous to Franzen (or overall harsh on Burrows) but I'm also a fan of the "Mule" so I'm not really put-off by the hyperbole. He's a great player. However, if you look at the last five seasons as a comparison (which I think is fair), there's very little difference between the overall performances of Franzen and Burrows. They've enjoyed very similar quality of linemates and they've done very similar things with their opportunities.

Burrows has more points but has played more games (from 2008-09 through 2012-13) while Franzen's points-per-game is slightly higher. They both consistently have 5v5 on-ice GF% in the 60-70 range and CF% in the 50-60 range. Over 5 seasons, their overall GF20 averages around 1.0 and their GA20 around 0.60. They're both very valuable to their teams and they both fit-in well on lines with each club's respective top-six forwards.

Certainly, Franzen comes with much better size (and size that doesn't come with the usual mobility tradeoffs) and a much better net presence (which is highly valuable). However, I'd say that Burrows comes with the better defensive ability (Franzen has benefited from playing more TOI with Selke-level linemates) and is a better player in three zones. On balance, I don't have an issue conceding that Franzen is more valuable, but it's not by a huge factor. Overall, they're pretty close (so their overall salaries should be close as well).

Whatever way you choose to view Franzen's contract (just under $4 million/season or closer to $5 million), it's good value for this player (and the possible drawbacks or penalties late into the deal are easily offset by the gains during the peak years).

However, this doesn't make Burrows at $4.5 million (over four years) an overpayment, especially when you take the long view on Burrows' career with the Canucks. He's going to get four seasons at market value after being one of the better bargains in the NHL over the previous four seasons. Burrows earned his deal and the Canucks will have enjoyed an overall savings during Burrows' career in Vancouver, whatever the future holds.

EDIT: fixed some typos

[MoneypuckOverlord]

You guys are forgetting the most important part. The Wings core has won a Stanley Cup. Have ours? Nope.

Wings core > Our core.

[SamJamIam]

Detroit is in the situation it's in not because of fiscal responsibility but because the franchise is going broke. If we were a cap floor team, we wouldn't be congratulating MG on a job well done, we'd say they're not putting an compelling product on the ice. We are in the opposite situation, yet you pat a struggling team on the back and throw our management under the bus. You idiots will rag on this team regardless.

[CanucksJay]

Just a couple things.

Burrows is a better net presence than most people around here realize, despite not being a giant. He is incredibly effective in front of the net and (his crafty screening) creates a whole lot of production for team-mates that doesn't show up on his bottom line.

Franzen's cap hit is skewed by an 11 year contract that runs until he is age 40.

I'd take Burrows' contract over Franzen's any and every time.

When you dig deeper than their production and the relative strengths of their linemates...

Burrows' underlying numbers place him amongst the top few Canucks; his relative corsi is +18.9.

Franzen's underlying numbers, despite playing with some of Detroit's best, are not impressive; his rc is 22nd on the Wings at -2.4.

Franzen, despite his size, does not hit more and he also doesn't block more shots.

Over the past three seasons Burrows is +65 while Franzen is +41.

Burrows is also an outstanding penalty killer while Franzen scarcely touches the ice shorthanded.

I think the idea that the "Mule" is twice the player is actually Bull.

[oldnews]

Good point about the contract length. Burrows was previously 2m x 4 and now 4.5 until 36 years old.

I will take that ANYDAY of the week.

Heart and Soul player

[LimitedEdition]

So you started a 4 paragraph thread including 2 full capgeek charts just to say detroits future cap situation is better than ours? I'm tired of all these bs selective stat posts. Why don't you include all the flyers wild pens devils and leafs future problems too? All you have to say about this team is complete garbage bodee. Why are you even a fan then. Why don't you get a wings jersey,  put "raymond 21" on the back and join their boards. I'm so sick of you and your negative attitude.

[sedinsforever]

So what you're telling us is Detroit's management is consistently amazing and our's isn't? Say it ain't so...

And to think, if the Canucks had won the Cup in 2011, Lu's contract could've been seen as a great loophole for giving Vancouver extra cap room to bolster the team that season.

Barring any insane price difference, you'd be crazy to not take Datsyuk and Zata over the twins. The only duo I'd pick over them would be Crosby and Malkin.

[sedinsforever]

too much money tied up in our defense i find that just isn't good enough

[SealTheDeal]

Detroit is a destination hockey club, MG said he was going to make Vancouver one but did not.

Remember a couple of years ago CDC keeners said MG would never trade a UFA signing because if would send a message to others thinking of signing here. He promptly traded Samuelson & Sturm (after 6games), Sulzer after 1/2 a season, demoted Bitz for Kassian and previously failed to sign Torres and Erhoff.

Torres was the one "Smallball" success in Gillis' tenure and he let him walk after 1 season.

I do not hink Vancouver is the Destination that Detroit is, hence the bloated, NT contracts.

[SealTheDeal]

That's been my point (if I read that correctly), since the Blackhawks went out in the first round the previous two years but made only minimal changes. Look at them this year.

The Canucks have a little more to change perhaps, but it certainly doesn't have to be "fire the coach and GM, trade the Sedins, Edler, Burrows, Bieksa and Luongo, trade everything we have for top picks this year and rebuild." AV gone is a strong possibility, Luongo gone is even stronger, and maybe we do move another piece, but there won't be much in the way of significant change beyond that.

[DarthNinja]

Edler for Franzen.

[BI3KSA-]

I've been saying this forever, way too many mid-level players on this team. I would rather get some skill in here and suppliment with younger/cheaper talent.

Unfortuantely the Sedins are not that dynamic. They can't play hockey without each other. Makes it pretty easy to negate their effect when you're two top earners and point getters can't play on different lines. Kesler is not a gamer changer. He played awesome in one series. Not the first time this happened in the NHL playoffs.

[Bodee]

This has to be one of the most ignorant CDC posts I have ever seen. MG failed to make Vancouver a destination hockey club, while Detroit has continued to be one? Are you totally out of your mind?

Last offseason Detroit desperately tries to acquire a solid top 4 D-man to help replace Lidstrom. They miss out on the Suter sweepstakes to the Wild. Meanwhile MG lands a top pairing PP quarterback AT A DISCOUNT - Garrison if you don't remember. And if you don't think he was a top pairing D-man on Florida before we signed him, go back and check his stats and who he lined up against.

Who signed Mats Sundin? Who signed Hamhuis, who was the #1 available free agent D-man when he hit the market? What notable free agents has Detroit attracted in the last 4 years?

The premise of this entire thread - that Detroit somehow has a far superior and less expensive roster than ours, is complete garbage. Even with everything the Canucks went through this season, there was never any real doubt that the Canucks would fail to win their division. Detroit - who now apparently inspires awe again - was given a 50% chance of making the playoffs this season - BY KEN HOLLAND HIMSELF. They beat Columbas for a playoff spot by 1 point and a tiebreak!

Tell me, how much interest would we have in comparing the rosters of the Canucks and the Red Wings if Detroit had lost in the first round? How much less if the Canucks had lost in the second round instead of the first? Every season some teams rise above their numbers and some fail to, but it is total idiocy to compare teams that were fortunate and overperformed (Detroit) to teams that underperformed (Canucks) on a cap comparison of one year and somehow from that extrapolate the relative abilities of each GM.

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

And he is twice the player. So what's wrong with that. If Burrows was 220lbs and 6'-3" he might be more help to the Sedins.

[tas]

Yeah cause Henrik Sedin didn't have one of his best seasons when Daniel was injured for a very large portion of the season. He didn't also win the Hart and Art Ross trophies without his brother in the line up for most of the season either.