(Rumour) torts almost removed updated botch

[Ding-Dong]

For the NTC a lot of those guys are veterans (35+) and have been with the franchise forever. Quite a bit are on short term deals as well. Kessel is better than Seguin... and he does it with an average center and 2nd line LW. You all realize he is top 3 in overall points since the deal went down? I am not denying Seguins ability, but Kessel is better. Would I deal both Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel? No. Because the difference is not that significant but there still is one.

Are you attempting to find issues in what I am saying or defending the bozo GM? Why so many defend Gillis is beyond me... you all should seriously go on the TSN boards and Twitter where they are calling for his head.

That's exactly my point. Those teams you listed are full of guys that are still on either ELCs or RFAs. NTCs and NMCs don't tend to come out in contract negotiations until you're a UFA. There's not much of a point otherwise.

I never said that Kessel wasn't better. I agree with you that currently he is the better player. I just think it's not as far as a gap as you claim it is.

I didn't realize that Twitter and TSN users are where the major and level headed discussions take place. Should we see how Youtube commentors also feel about the situation?

[Canuck Surfer]

For all the conjecture....

Fire Torts, Fire MG, Trade Kesler, OMG Aquilini interfered, Edler is a bum, where does Kassian fit, Lou was left standing at the Heritage Classic alter, Edler is a Swedish God look how he did with Karlsson, OMG we lost Lou and Schneids, did Kesler quit on us?

Our current state can be summed in one statement!

We tanked over a two month period where no player on our top line scored a single goal!

Perhaps a couple of sub plots exist in a macro picture... We should have depth scoring and a secondary play maker, a PMD, is shot blocking the source of our injury woes, or is it Torts overtaxing the Twins, a top 6 winger (you debate for the TWINS or Kesler)?

Danny Hank and Burr, until last night, did not have a SINGLE goal in 2014. Our losing streak coincides with that! Hank, the 2knd most productive scoring player in the league in the last 5 years up to this one, went 12 games without a point. Burr has no goals all year. Burr has no goals all year and MG was speaking of getting Kesler a fracking winger? FFS, Kesler was obviously in MG's ear and its a distraction. "I can save this thing MG, just get me a winger?" But we should not be distracted, Kesler should be a Selke defensive bull center, not our scorer.

ALL our short term issues start and stop with getting top line production! To me it starts with re-building role specific lines closer to AV's model. IE O'zone starts for Edler and Sedin. Cough, can we practice some break out patterns and score a transition goal? Any transition goal?? Ditch Hank killing penalties when Hansen, Burrows, Kesler, Mathias etc are available? Time to experiment with Kassian up front again?

Those are all strategic questions, so I guess I'm pointing the finger at Torts behind Hank, Burr and Danny who (sigh, would not have predicted Twins personally) are our real problem? Fix this, or fix it retroactively and we are easily still a play off team.

Then we can get back to larger issues of re-building the balance. The balance is required to get back to contending beyond just being a play off team..

edit: I also believe if you restore the roles and how they were used the Twins will rebound. dbl edit: I have always believed two such superlative passers deserved a premium sniping winger.

[JAVA-1]

I want to start by saying that I'm a diehard fan and have been since the first game they ever played and will be till my last breath. I really wonder when reading some of these topics if some of the fans actually watch the games, this team has not been as good as it's records have been the past few years,now yes they were a good team trying to play a style that they hoped the league would adapt to but that didn't turn out as planned (2011 finals and beyond).We also played against a lot of very weak teams in our division for a bunch of years that led to some very inflated stats for those years( individual and team wise). This team has been on the decline for a number of years because teams have figured them out and our management has either not figured that out or are not wiling to hurt some players feelings and move them or too stubborn to adapt (not sure), but to me that means they are not the right people to do the job.

This is not an endorsement for Torts but how can you blame him for our star players getting hurt and/or not playing to the levels we all expected or getting any help at the deadline.The only thing he can be blamed for is asking them to play a complete game (something new for a few) and it seems that me that some aren't comfortable with that (accountability can hurt). I believe that it was time for AV to go and am leaning to the same for Gillis as I think this team needs to change and it will only happen if upper management is willing and it appears by some of the re-signings that it won't be happening. which is to bad for the team and fans (we all deserve better).

We may be in for some lean years(again) but we need to stick together as fans and cheer for our boys thru it all, I will and I hope you all will also.......WE ARE ALL CANUCKS.....(forever)

[THERETOOL]

I want to start by saying that I'm a diehard fan and have been since the first game they ever played and will be till my last breath. I really wonder when reading some of these topics if some of the fans actually watch the games, this team has not been as good as it's records have been the past few years,now yes they were a good team trying to play a style that they hoped the league would adapt to but that didn't turn out as planned (2011 finals and beyond).We also played against a lot of very weak teams in our division for a bunch of years that led to some very inflated stats for those years( individual and team wise). This team has been on the decline for a number of years because teams have figured them out and our management has either not figured that out or are not wiling to hurt some players feelings and move them or too stubborn to adapt (not sure), but to me that means they are not the right people to do the job.

This is not an endorsement for Torts but how can you blame him for our star players getting hurt and/or not playing to the levels we all expected or getting any help at the deadline.The only thing he can be blamed for is asking them to play a complete game (something new for a few) and it seems that me that some aren't comfortable with that (accountability can hurt). I believe that it was time for AV to go and am leaning to the same for Gillis as I think this team needs to change and it will only happen if upper management is willing and it appears by some of the re-signings that it won't be happening. which is to bad for the team and fans (we all deserve better).

We may be in for some lean years(again) but we need to stick together as fans and cheer for our boys thru it all, I will and I hope you all will also.......WE ARE ALL CANUCKS.....(forever)

good post .. I think you see it very clearly .. enjoy that you look at it in a positive way too ... people around here are bummed out , and understandibly so ..........

[oldnews]

I want to start by saying that I'm a diehard fan and have been since the first game they ever played and will be till my last breath. I really wonder when reading some of these topics if some of the fans actually watch the games, this team has not been as good as it's records have been the past few years,now yes they were a good team trying to play a style that they hoped the league would adapt to but that didn't turn out as planned (2011 finals and beyond).We also played against a lot of very weak teams in our division for a bunch of years that led to some very inflated stats for those years( individual and team wise). This team has been on the decline for a number of years because teams have figured them out and our management has either not figured that out or are not wiling to hurt some players feelings and move them or too stubborn to adapt (not sure), but to me that means they are not the right people to do the job.

This is not an endorsement for Torts but how can you blame him for our star players getting hurt and/or not playing to the levels we all expected or getting any help at the deadline.The only thing he can be blamed for is asking them to play a complete game (something new for a few) and it seems that me that some aren't comfortable with that (accountability can hurt). I believe that it was time for AV to go and am leaning to the same for Gillis as I think this team needs to change and it will only happen if upper management is willing and it appears by some of the re-signings that it won't be happening. which is to bad for the team and fans (we all deserve better).

We may be in for some lean years(again) but we need to stick together as fans and cheer for our boys thru it all, I will and I hope you all will also.......WE ARE ALL CANUCKS.....(forever)

First, the weak division story is a part truth - yes the division was weak - but the rest of the story is that the Canucks beat up on every single division in the NHL, some of their best records against the strongest divisions in hockey. Really, that weak division thing in the end is a myth that doesn't stand up and has been dispelled numerous times on these boards. If you check into the Canucks record the past three seasons or searched those debates on these boards, I think you'd be surprised by the results.

Second, it is precisely the coaches' job to get the best out of their players. The fact remains that a number of Canucks are having career worst seasons. A significant part of that is injuries, which can't be blamed on the coach - but also can't be entirely separated from the coach. The coach employs a very demanding and aggressive forecheck, he arguably overutilizes his core players, he expects a sacrifice-the-body type of defensive hockey that is shot-blocking intensive (that's how Burrows, Schroeder, Tanev injuries have occured - although can't be 'blamed' on the coach) - he insisted on using the Sedins to kill more penalties than players like Hansen. There is a limit to pretending your entire roster can play a 'complete' game. You don't expect your depth role players to light up your powerplay, and you don't use your marquis puck possession players to play without the puck. At a certain point the everyone doing everything logic outsmarts itself and the coach is failing to utilize players to their strengths. Overplaying your core during an Olympic compacted season that has a gruelling travel and play schedule....Is that making 'complete' players of them, or running their tank to empty? He's may not be entirely, but how is he not responsible? Who is?

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

First, the weak division story is a part truth - yes the division was weak - but the rest of the story is that the Canucks beat up on every single division in the NHL, some of their best records against the strongest divisions in hockey. Really, that weak division thing in the end is a myth that doesn't stand up and has been dispelled numerous times on these boards. If you check into the Canucks record the past three seasons or searched those debates on these boards, I think you'd be surprised by the results.

Second, it is precisely the coaches' job to get the best out of their players. The fact remains that a number of Canucks are having career worst seasons. A significant part of that is injuries, which can't be blamed on the coach - but also can't be entirely separated from the coach. The coach employs a very demanding and aggressive forecheck, he arguably overutilizes his core players, he expects a sacrifice-the-body type of defensive hockey that is shot-blocking intensive (that's how Burrows, Schroeder, Tanev injuries have occured - although can't be 'blamed' on the coach) - he insisted on using the Sedins to kill more penalties than players like Hansen. There is a limit to pretending your entire roster can play a 'complete' game. You don't expect your depth role players to light up your powerplay, and you don't use your marquis puck possession players to play without the puck. At a certain point the everyone doing everything logic outsmarts itself and the coach is failing to utilize players to their strengths. Overplaying your core during an Olympic compacted season that has a gruelling travel and play schedule....Is that making 'complete' players of them, or running their tank to empty? He's may not be entirely, but how is he not responsible? Who is?

I believed the weak division myth before too than I checked the canucks record against in the past and now I don't believe it anymore. There is even proof it doesn't hold from this season. Our last games with Minny, calgary, and edmonton.

Minny- we have lost all games in a shootout (Used to be able to have at least 2-3 wins against them)

Calgary- We have not blown them out like we used to and all the games we played are 1 goal wins with the exception of that 2-0 win. (We used to be able to score 6 goals on them easy)

Edmonton- I think our games against Edmonton best indicate how our season has went here they are

(Oct) 6-2 Win

(Dec) 4-0 Win

(Jan) 2-1 Win

(Jan) 2-4 Loss

You will notice that the scoring has decreased considerably and the thing that is most concerning to me was that the sedins used to have 3-5 point nights against Edmonton with them setting up Burrows but it is no longer the case. This might have to do with the amount of injuries to our top line but I really think this team is over reliant on the sedins and burrows to score goals. The whole point of Kesler was from him to cover when the sedins haven`t and he hasn`t done that. I have lost count of how many games he has scored in that we have lost this season.

[Henrik Kesler]

Torts is a smart coach. If he can learn to relax on some of his maxims like "Kassian MUST be better defensively to get a legit chance with the Sedins" I think some good things can happen. If not, and players like Schroder and Dalpe get buried on the fourth line it's time to let him go.

I also think that the Sedins incredible scoring funk have a lot to do with all of this discussion. NO team in the NHL succeeds when their top line goes goalless for 20+ games, the competition at this level is just too good to consistently win without the top line producing with consistency.

Finally, find someone to run the damn powerplay.

[oldnews]

I believed the weak division myth before too than I checked the canucks record against in the past and now I don't believe it anymore. There is even proof it doesn't hold from this season. Our last games with Minny, calgary, and edmonton.

Minny- we have lost all games in a shootout (Used to be able to have at least 2-3 wins against them)

Calgary- We have not blown them out like we used to and all the games we played are 1 goal wins with the exception of that 2-0 win. (We used to be able to score 6 goals on them easy)

Edmonton- I think our games against Edmonton best indicate how our season has went here they are

(Oct) 6-2 Win

(Dec) 4-0 Win

(Jan) 2-1 Win

(Jan) 2-4 Loss

You will notice that the scoring has decreased considerably and the thing that is most concerning to me was that the sedins used to have 3-5 point nights against Edmonton with them setting up Burrows but it is no longer the case. This might have to do with the amount of injuries to our top line but I really think this team is over reliant on the sedins and burrows to score goals. The whole point of Kesler was from him to cover when the sedins haven`t and he hasn`t done that. I have lost count of how many games he has scored in that we have lost this season.

I guess time will tell where the Sedins are concerned. They do need scoring support - and at the same time, both the first and second lines have gone through a whole lot of injuries the past few years.

So many people on the boards declaring the Sedins DOA though. Is that just goldfish memory syndrome? They had 38 and 39 points in 44 games this year - without Burrows - before Henrik suffered both a wrist and back injury. He hasn't anywhere near resembled himself since - but in no way do I take that as "decline" as opposed to situational ie obviously injured up to the present, the last 15 or 20 games meaning nothing as far as I'm concerned. Daniel to a lesser extent. I also think the Canucks are playing systems that are less than ideal for their styles of hockey, and that they were both over and misutilized to some extent this year. I guess we'll have to wait to see what they're able to do the next time they're healthy, but they do need some secondary scoring, something that I think the youth and possibly the wealth of cap space could provide.

[Canuck or Die]

That would be my guess as well, and would be a significant part of the reason I think Gillis should stay while Torts is probably the guy who should go first. It may in fact work the other way if that is true though - ownership may keep the coach they wanted and hang this on Gillis.

My problem with that, however, would be that the Tortorella experiment isn't quite working out on the positive side of things. Some folks may wish to blame the entire roster or the entire 'rotting' core, but imo that's a cop out.

I'm not necessary in the crowd that wants to see him fired quite yet, but I think it's a reality that he hasn't yet proven to be a very good fit overall. I'm not going to try to take away the way he had the team performing before New Years - there was some definite promise there, particularly considering all the injuries, but combine them with a gruelling schedule and his gameplanning wasn't sustainable.

But aside from that, my concerns are mostly tactical:

I'm not a fan of huge fan of the low zone collapse.

I like the aggressive 2-1-2 forecheck but the Canucks have seemed to depend far too much on the success of their forecheck to generate possession and scoring opportunities.

There might be a slight disconnect between transitioning from one to the other as well - I think that would have to be looked into more.

The schedule in an Olympic year - gruelling - was not something that could not have been foreseen. Overplaying the core was an approach that apparently backfired - and wasn't only questioned in hindsight - it was something that people expected Tortorella to adjust to. In fairness, the amount of injuries put him somewhat between a rock and a hard place - but at a certain level It does appear that he expected the team to adapt to his expectations - and that perhaps they weren't realistic - while on the other hand he probably didn't have the depth to depart from his style.

Torts was also famed early this season for his ability to make adjustments and respond to in game momentum changes. He's gone pretty flat in those respects, as has the fire and motivation.

I'm not sure why he insists on continuing to pair Edler and Bieksa together, but it has never really worked.

I also didn't like replacing Hamhuis as the primary shutdown defenseman with Edler. That has changed.

In last night's lineup for example, the Canucks bottom six consisted of Booth, Matthias and Sestito on the third line and Archie, Schroeder, Dalpe on the fourth. It's just seems to make more sense to move Schroeder or Dalpe up to the third and boost the skill and playmaking on that line, and move Sestito to the fourth on the opposing wing to Archie and let that line bang, forecheck...

The thing I've liked least is his apparent relationship with Hamhuis to start the season, his flogging of Hansen publicly, and then Edler. Those are the kinds of things I really wished he'd have left behind. When it comes to a choice between those players and the coach, I'm with the players, and am a bit dumbfounded as to the choices of Hamhuis and Hansen in particular. Edler has struggled, but also doesn't seem like the type of personality to thrive when being yelled at. I don't think many people are. I have to question the 'motivational' effect as well as that upon the confidence of these players. The team has never been so volatile - is that a reflection of the coach?

Some people may consider the fact he lost his temper and control of his behaviour in the Calgary game to be evidence that the experiment hasnt worked - that is not the primary of my concerns. If anything, other than that outburst, I think he's kept his composure for the most part, at least publicly, but nevertheless, there are enough points of doubt in my mind to wonder whether both the approach and the systems are a misfit.

Cop out? The only cop out is automatically blaming the coach. People say this core is rotten because they have been on the decline ever since the finals. They were tuning out AV last year, now they seem to be doing it with Torts. Sorry, but some of the guys need to be replaced.

[oldnews]

TSN up to their usual, trolling Tortorella and the Canucks on their top 10 tonight.

It'll come back around to their Leafs soon enough.

[MikeGillis58]

I'd give Marc Crawford as second crack at coaching the Canucks.

[oldnews]

Cop out? The only cop out is automatically blaming the coach. People say this core is rotten because they have been on the decline ever since the finals. They were tuning out AV last year, now they seem to be doing it with Torts. Sorry, but some of the guys need to be replaced.

Meh. If you say so. I hear some claims there, but not alot to back them up aside from an opinion without much context. 15/20 games ago, Henrik had 84 points in his last 92 games - Daniel had 78 in 89. Henrik injures his wrist, Plays through it, and gets crosschecked, tries to play through it, but a shell of himself. Misses the Olympics and is playing now, but is obviously still injured and unable, as before, to take draws. Daniel injures his knee. They both played the majority of the 40 games beforehand with revolving wingers and linemates.... They were fine until the injuries hit them.

Their underlying numbers still outstanding despite their offensive zone starts decreasing year after year. This year they've killed more penalties than Jannick Hansen. If you run them into exhaustion, let them play injured, and convert their roles to harder two way minutes then you simply can't expect the same kind of production. Call it "decline" if you want. I'll wait to see what they do when healthy again, as they did as recently as December, before I jump to conclusions like that.

As for the "tune out" and "rotting" claims, those are distant spins imo.

[stawns]

Torts is a smart coach. If he can learn to relax on some of his maxims like "Kassian MUST be better defensively to get a legit chance with the Sedins" I think some good things can happen. If not, and players like Schroder and Dalpe get buried on the fourth line it's time to let him go.

I also think that the Sedins incredible scoring funk have a lot to do with all of this discussion. NO team in the NHL succeeds when their top line goes goalless for 20+ games, the competition at this level is just too good to consistently win without the top line producing with consistency.

Finally, find someone to run the damn powerplay.

care to elaborate, because I'm not seeing that at all.

[Cold Hard Truth]

Keep Torts and either get the Sedins and Kesler some decent line mates or trade them.

Its been obvious for years that the canucks needed a heart transplant.

AV fired, no changes

Torts fired next ?

How many more coaches should we watch get hung out to dry by guys that constantly refuse to play 60 minutes ?

[Cold Hard Truth]

Edler the worst plus minus in the league. Like he's trying to FK up out there.

Worse + - in the NHL ?

Hey buddy, you just waived your NTC,

GTFO of here and stop trying to get our coaches fired.

[PhillipBlunt]

Everyone whining about Tortorella playing those poor Sedins into the ground are humorous.

Henrik was a vocal supporter of bringing Tortorella on in the first place by his own admission.

What Tortorella's system has shown is the fact that the Sedins are done. They don't have the ability to perform anywhere near what they are paid to.

They are no longer first line players as proven by their epic decline. Blame the systems until you're blue in the face, but truly great players adapt and find ways to score and win.

They had similar issues under AV, but played a far more sheltered game.

Thanks to Gillis they and their rapidly diminishing game are in Vancouver for another four years.

[Me_]

Torts should be fired along with Gillis. Give Sullivan the ship until we hire some actual hockey people in the office season. It's a joke that we're still sailing with these two idiots at the helm.

...and how many games did Sullivan win during Tortorella's absence again?

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Remove this clown right now! He pretty much is coaching the same team that won the presidents trophy 2 years ago, why the hell can't we even score a bloody goal?

[Salmonberries]

[Brick Tamland]

Torts is great. The players play the game. Botchford is a complete moron. Injuries and underachievers FTW.