Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Alflives]

6 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

 

Like not even two weeks ago you said he was too good for the AHL 

It's a New Year.  This is one of my resolutions.  

[aGENT]

42 minutes ago, Toews said:

Arguing with yourself again? No one has said the bolded nor even implied it. People have talked about those guys being replacements, but that's hardly the same thing as claiming that they are HOFers or will win Art Ross trophies. Classic straw man.

 

People ARE acting like we missed out on a future Sedin though. The HOF comment was my own opinion.

 

Ehlers/Nylander are good, complimentary, skilled top 6 forwards. Nothing at all wrong with that. But of the more talented pieces on a given roster (ie: not plugs), they're some of the easier pieces to come by (via draft, trade or UFA). And if you do draft them, they tend to have an impact sooner than later (with exceptions).

 

Never mind that it looks like we're doing ok with similar level players with the likes of Baer, Granlund and Boeser looking quite promising at UND. 

 

Forest. Trees.

[Toews]

3 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

People ARE acting like we missed out on a future Sedin though. The HOF comment was my own opinion.

 

Ehlers/Nylander are good, complimentary, skilled top 6 forwards. Nothing at all wrong with that. But of the more talented pieces on a given roster (ie: not plugs), they're some of the easier pieces to come by (via draft, trade or UFA). And if you do draft them, they tend to have an impact sooner than later (with exceptions).

 

Never mind that it looks like we're doing ok with similar level players with the likes of Baer, Granlund and Boeser looking quite promising at UND. 

 

Forest. Trees.

I have looked through the last few pages and I still don't see where you are seeing this. A few seem to think that they are tracking to be 1st line forwards which isn't outrageous at all considering their growth and production thus far.

[aGENT]

Just now, Toews said:

I have looked through the last few pages and I still don't see where you are seeing this. A few seem to think that they are tracking to be 1st line forwards which isn't outrageous at all considering their growth and production thus far.

 

It's somewhere in the 748 pages

[Bissurnette]

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

People ARE acting like we missed out on a future Sedin though. The HOF comment was my own opinion.

 

Ehlers/Nylander are good, complimentary, skilled top 6 forwards. Nothing at all wrong with that. But of the more talented pieces on a given roster (ie: not plugs), they're some of the easier pieces to come by (via draft, trade or UFA). And if you do draft them, they tend to have an impact sooner than later (with exceptions).

 

Never mind that it looks like we're doing ok with similar level players with the likes of Baer, Granlund and Boeser looking quite promising at UND. 

 

Forest. Trees.

 

Not to mention Zhukenov and Lockwood who seem to be rather similar players we have in the system. They might not be as skilled as Nylander or Ehlers, but they're more tenacious/pain in the arse to play against. I'll take that over pure skill anyday. If Nylander or Ehlers play on our team in the playoffs I don't think they'd be doing much damage out on the ice. But that's just my opinion.

[Toews]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

It's somewhere in the 748 pages

I just looked through all 748 pages, didn't see it.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

15 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

People ARE acting like we missed out on a future Sedin though. The HOF comment was my own opinion.

 

Ehlers/Nylander are good, complimentary, skilled top 6 forwards. Nothing at all wrong with that. But of the more talented pieces on a given roster (ie: not plugs), they're some of the easier pieces to come by (via draft, trade or UFA). And if you do draft them, they tend to have an impact sooner than later (with exceptions).

 

Never mind that it looks like we're doing ok with similar level players with the likes of Baer, Granlund and Boeser looking quite promising at UND. 

 

Forest. Trees.

Realistically the chances of finding a player that comes close to being Sedin level greatness is extremely low.  I don't know if any one really expects an exact level replacement (although i can't really speak for everyone)

 

When I see "Sedin replacement", i think of someone to take over for the sedins on the first line, with first line production.  And that's something both ehler and Nylander are on their way to doing.

 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Realistically the chances of finding a player that comes close to being Sedin level greatness is extremely low.  I don't know if any one really expects an exact level replacement (although i can't really speak for everyone)

 

When I see "Sedin replacement", i think of someone to take over for the sedins on the first line, with first line production.  And that's something both ehler and Nylander are on their way to doing.

 

 

As is Baer and Horvat with Granlund not far behind while playing a solid 2 way game and Boeser on the way. The horror!

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, meh_wassup said:

 

Not to mention Zhukenov and Lockwood who seem to be rather similar players we have in the system. They might not be as skilled as Nylander or Ehlers, but they're more tenacious/pain in the arse to play against. I'll take that over pure skill anyday. If Nylander or Ehlers play on our team in the playoffs I don't think they'd be doing much damage out on the ice. But that's just my opinion.

 

They're certainly bigger long shots and possibly/likely more 'middle 6'  but yup. Gaudette as well.

Edited January 9, 2017 by J.R.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

As is Baer and Horvat with Granlund not far behind while playing a solid 2 way game and Boeser on the way. The horror!

What do they have to do with Virtanen being picked over Ehlers and Nylander?  Were they also in the 2014 draft?  Where they even on the canucks roster in the 2014 draft?

 

And for the record, a 20 year old Ehlers has doubled, a 23 year old granlunds points this year, i'm not sure you can really compare the two.

Edited January 9, 2017 by ForsbergTheGreat

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

What do they have to do with Virtanen being picked over Ehlers and Nylander?  Were they also in the 2014 draft?  Where they even on the canucks roster in the 2014 draft?

 

And for the record, a 20 year old Ehlers has doubled, a 23 year old granlunds points this year, i'm not sure you can really compare the two.

 

Ask them  But seriously, because I keep hearing this 'who's replacing the Sedins' sentiment or 'Benning picked meat and potatoes Virtanen (Boston model) over skilled Nylander/Ehlers' or that 'Benning doesn't draft skilled players' etc, etc.

 

Maybe's Benning's got a plan that involved getting Virtanen (who's far from a closed book) while also adding skill via the likes of Baer, Granlund, Boeser (not to mention the aforementioned Lockwood, Zhikenov, Gaudette etc) and also adding more skill later in the rebuild via the draft as well as likely moving some of our depth on D for young forwards.

 

It's myopic.

 

I wasn't comparing the two. I said he wasn't 'far behind' Baer/Horvat while also playing on a match up line against high QOC with less O zone starts etc. 

[Bissurnette]

14 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

They're certainly bigger long shots and possibly/likely more 'middle 6'  but yup. Gaudette as well.

 

Gaudette is more of a 2way player, but he is also a good prospect. Yes they're long shots (especially Zhukenov) but they're not worlds apart, strictly speaking skill-wise, from Ehlers and Nylander. Yes Ehlers and Nylander are more skilled players, but if they're not scoring they're not doing much.

 

All I'm saying is that I like the young players we have in the system, and there's no rhyme or reason to rushing them, or giving up on them as of yet. Virtanen is only 20 years old, he's still got a lot of time and room to grow. We won't start seeing what we have in him for another 3-4 years. For now, preach patience.

[aGENT]

Just now, meh_wassup said:

 

Gaudette is more of a 2way player, but he is also a good prospect. Yes they're long shots (especially Zhukenov) but they're not worlds apart, strictly speaking skill-wise, from Ehlers and Nylander. Yes Ehlers and Nylander are more skilled players, but if they're not scoring they're not doing much.

 

All I'm saying is that I like the young players we have in the system, and there's no rhyme or reason to rushing them, or giving up on them as of yet. Virtanen is only 20 years old, he's still got a lot of time and room to grow. We won't start seeing what we have in him for another 3-4 years. For now, preach patience.

 

COMPLETELY agree.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

Ask them  But seriously, because I keep hearing this 'who's replacing the Sedins' sentiment or 'Benning picked meat and potatoes Virtanen (Boston model) over skilled Nylander/Ehlers' or that 'Benning doesn't draft skilled players' etc, etc.

 

Maybe's Benning's got a plan that involved getting Virtanen (who's far from a closed book) while also adding skill via the likes of Baer, Granlund, Boeser (not to mention the aforementioned Lockwood, Zhikenov, Gaudette etc) and also adding more skill later in the rebuild via the draft as well as likely moving some of our depth on D for young forwards.

 

It's myopic.

 

I wasn't comparing the two. I said he wasn't 'far behind' Baer/Horvat while also playing on a match up line against high QOC with less O zone starts etc. 

I think you're thinking too much about it. It's not like there was this master plan, somehow JB knew that Sven would become available almost 2 years later or that Boeser was drop to him in the next year.  It's a lot more simple, i'm sure JB had higher hopes for JV.  If you asked JB, he probably would say that Virtanen hasn't developed exactly how he thought, (so far).  Not a knock on JB, just players develop differently and sometimes players picked after us go on to have really good careers.

 

Nylander and Ehlers are exceptional players and will go on to have great careers, it's not wrong to think that this roster could have used players like them going forward.

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I think you're thinking too much about it. It's not like there was this master plan, somehow JB knew that Sven would become available almost 2 years later or that Boeser was drop to him in the next year.  It's a lot more simple, i'm sure JB had higher hopes for JV.  If you asked JB, he probably would say that Virtanen hasn't developed exactly how he thought, (so far).  Not a knock on JB, just players develop differently and sometimes players picked after us go on to have really good careers.

 

Nylander and Ehlers are exceptional players and will go on to have great careers, it's not wrong to think that this roster could have used players like them going forward.

 

I'm sure Benning had hoped Virt would have started to put it together sooner. Who wouldn't? I'm sure he's also not surprised that he hasn't yet.

 

Why would it be so surprising to think Benning had a general outline/plan of where the team was going and how they were going to get there?

 

Sure, it would be nice to have lots of players. Just as I noted in the Juolevi thread, it would have been nice to get Tkachuck, Keller, Jost, Sergachev etc too. Short of trading for additional picks, you only get one. You can't have all the players. 

[Warhippy]

2014 Draft.  Dal Colle. Fluery, Ritchie

2012 Draft.  Yakupov, Reinhardt, Dumba

2011 Draft.  Nugent Hopkins, Landeskogg, Larsson, Strome, Zabinejad, Hamilton, Brodin

2010 Draft.  Neidereitter, Gudbranson, Connolly, Burmistrov

2009 Draft.  Kane, Glennie, Cowan, Pajarvi Svenson, 

 

I could keep going. 

 

What do these players all have in common?  They're ALL top 10 or better draft picks.  Why is this important?  because.  Like CVirtanen, ALL of these players (for CDC's standards) have not, are not can not or will not live up to their draft rankings and ratings.  Sure some or most are NL players to some extent.  But almost to a person not sure fire, blue chip top 10 studs.  

 

What is the point I am trying to make.  Look at that list, barring 2013 which was godly really; there's a lot of mediocre players or players that for their draft position are kind of disappointing or outright busts.

 

I am trying to simply point out the obvious.  Not EVERY player is a sure fire cannot lose prospect.  Some need work.  Some never find it.  Virtanen is currently right in the middle.  I am sure people will reply with the obvious "I think he is leaning more towards bust or disappointment"  but that's all opinion and kind of worthless in the grand scheme of things because we don't care about your opinion.  We care about results and the long term health of this club.

 

Let's go back shall we.

 

2014 Draft.  Larkin.  Fabbri.  Demko.  Collins.  

2012 Draft.  Hertl.  Maata.  Pearson.  McGinn.  Severson.

2011 Draft.  Klefbom.  Jenner.  Saad.  Harrington

2010 Draft.  Tarasenko.  Bjugstad.  Kuznetsov.  Petrovic.  Toffolli

2009 Draft.  Leddy, Rundblad, Kreider, O'Reilly, Klingberg, Morin, Orlov

 

Now why are these important or what baring do they have in this conversation.  These are all players taken 15th to 60th.  They're all also NHL players or FAR exceeding their draft positions.

 

Bottom line is, Virtanen is NOT going to  make or break this team based on being picked 6th.  he will do it based on and under his own merit.  Continuing to say he is/was a bust or disappointment at 6th is only showing how narrow your view of the hockey world as a whole is.  Want to know a REALLY fun fact.  Skille is also a top 10 pick at 7th in 2005.  By the Hawks.  A guy drafted 1 year after the uber D Cam Barker at 3rd in 2004.  Being a top 10 pick means very little in an age of development.

 

We're STILL just starting a development program with almost 0 prospects worth speaking of while other teams have had theirs in place for decades.  Virtanen is going to be the player HE decides to be, not who this forum and fan base wants him to be.

 

Bottom line here is that players go on to have mediocre careers or worse all the time.  We're no different.  Instead of endlessly stat watching, play the long game.  You'll feel better for it by not analyzing every single tweet, photo, point and shift a prospect makes.  

 

Trust me.  I know.  I watched us pass up Jagr

[BaerToBo]

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

2014 Draft.  Dal Colle. Fluery, Ritchie

2012 Draft.  Yakupov, Reinhardt, Dumba

2011 Draft.  Nugent Hopkins, Landeskogg, Larsson, Strome, Zabinejad, Hamilton, Brodin

2010 Draft.  Neidereitter, Gudbranson, Connolly, Burmistrov

2009 Draft.  Kane, Glennie, Cowan, Pajarvi Svenson, 

 

I could keep going. 

 

What do these players all have in common?  They're ALL top 10 or better draft picks.  Why is this important?  because.  Like CVirtanen, ALL of these players (for CDC's standards) have not, are not can not or will not live up to their draft rankings and ratings.  Sure some or most are NL players to some extent.  But almost to a person not sure fire, blue chip top 10 studs.  

 

What is the point I am trying to make.  Look at that list, barring 2013 which was godly really; there's a lot of mediocre players or players that for their draft position are kind of disappointing or outright busts.

 

I am trying to simply point out the obvious.  Not EVERY player is a sure fire cannot lose prospect.  Some need work.  Some never find it.  Virtanen is currently right in the middle.  I am sure people will reply with the obvious "I think he is leaning more towards bust or disappointment"  but that's all opinion and kind of worthless in the grand scheme of things because we don't care about your opinion.  We care about results and the long term health of this club.

 

Let's go back shall we.

 

2014 Draft.  Larkin.  Fabbri.  Demko.  Collins.  

2012 Draft.  Hertl.  Maata.  Pearson.  McGinn.  Severson.

2011 Draft.  Klefbom.  Jenner.  Saad.  Harrington

2010 Draft.  Tarasenko.  Bjugstad.  Kuznetsov.  Petrovic.  Toffolli

2009 Draft.  Leddy, Rundblad, Kreider, O'Reilly, Klingberg, Morin, Orlov

 

Now why are these important or what baring do they have in this conversation.  These are all players taken 15th to 60th.  They're all also NHL players or FAR exceeding their draft positions.

 

Bottom line is, Virtanen is NOT going to  make or break this team based on being picked 6th.  he will do it based on and under his own merit.  Continuing to say he is/was a bust or disappointment at 6th is only showing how narrow your view of the hockey world as a whole is.  Want to know a REALLY fun fact.  Skille is also a top 10 pick at 7th in 2005.  By the Hawks.  A guy drafted 1 year after the uber D Cam Barker at 3rd in 2004.  Being a top 10 pick means very little in an age of development.

 

We're STILL just starting a development program with almost 0 prospects worth speaking of while other teams have had theirs in place for decades.  Virtanen is going to be the player HE decides to be, not who this forum and fan base wants him to be.

 

Bottom line here is that players go on to have mediocre careers or worse all the time.  We're no different.  Instead of endlessly stat watching, play the long game.  You'll feel better for it by not analyzing every single tweet, photo, point and shift a prospect makes.  

 

Trust me.  I know.  I watched us pass up Jagr

Why did you bring up Landeskog hes not a bust

[Warhippy]

11 minutes ago, BaerToBo said:

Why did you bring up Landeskog hes not a bust

Reading comprehension.  I never said he was a bust.  i said by CDC standards have not, can not or will not live up to their draft rankings.  CDC standards have any top 3 player a future HOF entrant.  At 3rd overall Landeskog is producing the same clip as Tkachuk right now. 56 ish point per season player.  By the standards seemingly set here he is not living up to his draft ranking.

 

Note I also have Gudbranson in there.  Ritchie.  RNH.  Larson.  Hamilton etc.  Players not living up to what CDC seems to think a top 3 or top 10 or in 2 cases a 1st overall pick should be

 

See below

 

What do these players all have in common?  They're ALL top 10 or better draft picks.  Why is this important?  because.  Like Virtanen, ALL of these players (for CDC's standards) have not, are not can not or will not live up to their draft rankings and ratings.  Sure some or most are NHL players to some extent.  But almost to a person not sure fire, blue chip top 10 studs.  

 

What is the point I am trying to make.  Look at that list, barring 2013 which was godly really; there's a lot of mediocre players or players that for their draft position are kind of disappointing or outright busts.

 

 

 

[hammertime]

I think It's way to early to be projecting Virtanen as a bust. It is likely that he won't be driving the offence on either a 1st or 2nd line. I happen to think the team is projecting him as a future Jannik Hansen who hits like a truck and can play on any line 1st to 4th and infuse some intimidation and speed to give our skilled players more time and space out there. Having a player like that is very valuable especially in the playoffs. I'm not gonna bother with the we should have drafted so and so hindsight BS. If were doing what if's what if JB had passed over the local born muscle bound prototypical PF that this city craved for another teeny weeny tweeny. Now suppose in a diff system on a diff team Virtanen goes on to have success while Nylander/Ehlers is getting squashed on our weak under matched team playing The Ducks, Kings,Wpg, Sharks, night in night out. I'm not saying I'm a fan of the pick I am just saying I don't blame JB for making it. I would have done the exact same in his shoes in 2014.

 

I will say however before the draft last year I really wanted JB to trade down for Sergachyov/McAvoy and Tage Thompson and I stand by that. However there is no way to know if there was a deal out there to make that possible but I think it could have been done even if we had to wiggle a bit. Carolina with their 2 picks 13/21 I'm sure would have had interest in Olli over Bean. And there is no way JB didn't have eyes on McAvoy playing at Boston U. 

 

Enough of the what if pity party Olli and Virtanen are our guys and Ill be cheering for them. Go Canucks Go.

 

[Alflives]

48 minutes ago, BaerToBo said:

Why did you bring up Landeskog hes not a bust

He's captain of a team that is a big bust.  Maybe he's not so good a player as we on CDC seem to think?