Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Hugor Hill]

12 minutes ago, jagori78 said:

I am starting to consider him a bust. Funny how the most important trait is inbetween the ears; and most of the time the scouts just dont know.

 

I wonder is Jake has ever put a team on his back and dominated for a stretch. He has never been more than a second liner even at his peak in junior.

 

I have way more faith in Baertschi developing into a top winger than Virtanen. I would dump him as more useful players can be found on waivers.

At worst he becomes a Raffia Torres like guy. Disappointing but hey, Torres was 3rd overall.

[Odd.]

3 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

At worst he becomes a Raffia Torres like guy. Disappointing but hey, Torres was 3rd overall.

5th*.

 

Another New york islanders 5th overall pick bust. Just one of a dozen of em.

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

At worst he becomes a Raffia Torres like guy. Disappointing but hey, Torres was 3rd overall.

 

Torres was 5th overall, still bad though.

 

I wouldn't say at worst he becomes a Raffi Torres. Player development can go badly at any point. At worst he toils away in the AHL and is just never able to take his game to a consistent enough level to play in the NHL.

 

I mean who would have said at worst Hodgson would be out of the league at age 25? I'm never going to slap an "at worst" label on any player.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Odd. said:

5th*.

 

Another New york islanders 5th overall pick bust. Just one of a dozen of em.

 

Lol, I just realized that.

 

Man that team should just trade those picks when they get them. They really haven't worked out for them.

[MJDDawg]

2 hours ago, Miles Mayhem said:

Ok cool, we drafted him and unless someone can travel through time and convince JB otherwise, crying about drafting him is a complete waste of time. 

 

How is he doing in Utica? Does anyone actually know? 

 

UTICA COMETS 2016-17 INDIVIDUAL STATS
#	PLAYER	POS	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	PP	SHG	SOG	SH%
28	Alexandre Grenier	RW	32	10	16	26	-6	38	5	0	74	13.5
38	Curtis Valk	C	32	12	10	22	-3	22	0	0	80	15.0
25	Darren Archibald	LW	33	9	12	21	3	16	0	1	71	12.7
7	Jordan Subban	D	30	8	12	20	-7	8	6	0	77	10.4
48	Colby Robak (total)	D	30	2	16	18	5	36	2	0	54	3.7
	STK	D	6	0	5	5	8	6	0	0	5	0.0
	UTI	D	24	2	11	13	-3	30	2	0	49	4.1
26	Michael Chaput (X)	C	10	2	11	13	-1	10	1	1	18	11.1
20	Cody Kunyk	C	21	2	9	11	-6	6	1	0	26	7.7
34	Carter Bancks	LW	29	5	5	10	-8	17	4	0	35	14.3
22	Pascal Pelletier	C	17	3	5	8	-9	8	2	0	30	10.0
16	Joseph LaBate	LW	19	2	6	8	-7	46	1	0	35	5.7
5	David Shields	D	26	0	8	8	-4	4	0	0	23	0.0
18	Jake Virtanen	RW	23	4	3	7	-4	20	3	0	42	9.5
41	Chad Billins	D	30	1	6	7	-4	6	1	0	46	2.2
36	Wacey Hamilton	C	27	4	2	6	-3	44	0	0	28	14.3
24	Derek Hulak	LW	17	4	1	5	2	4	0	0	16	25.0
8	John Negrin	D	20	0	5	5	-2	12	0	0	18	0.0
19	Cole Cassels	RW	26	4	0	4	-2	18	0	1	28	14.3
71	Borna Rendulic	RW	31	2	2	4	-2	10	0	0	29	6.9
11	Marco Roy	C	12	1	3	4	3	4	0	0	17	5.9
37	Andrey Pedan	D	21	2	1	3	2	32	0	0	38	5.3
23	Jayson Megna (X)	RW	4	1	2	3	-1	0	0	0	3	33.3
58	Michael Carcone	LW	26	1	2	3	-5	25	1	0	36	2.8
4	Evan McEneny	D	23	1	1	2	-10	10	1	0	42	2.4
14	Mike Zalewski	C	14	0	2	2	-2	10	0	0	22	0.0
21	Phil DeSimone (X)	C	8	1	0	1	-1	2	0	0	15	6.7
17	Anton Rodin (X)	F	3	0	1	1	-1	0	0	0	3	0.0
2	Troy Stecher (X)	D	4	0	1	1	0	4	0	0	8	0.0
9	Yan-Pavel Laplante	LW	13	0	1	1	-8	9	0	0	7	0.0
6	Ashton Sautner	D	13	0	1	1	-7	12	0	0	5	0.0
3	Alex Biega (X)	D	1	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0	0	0.0
17	Luke Pither (X)	C	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0.0
43	Tom Nilsson	D	7	0	0	0	-2	4	0	0	5	0.0
	BENCH		33	0				10			0
	TOTALS		33	81	140	221	-100	445	28	3	927	8.7

[singing chef]

How about we compare his progress to that of Wayne Simmonds, currently a successful power forward with Philadelphia Flyers.  They each had similar ppg in Junior.  Simmonds, however, played in Junior as a 19 y.o. whereas Virtanen was "forced into the NHL as a 19 y.o.   In his first year in NHL as a 20 y.o. Simmonds' numbers were 9/14 = 23 in a 82 game schedule (0.28 pts/game). In his first year in NHL as a 19 y.o.  Jake had 7/6 = 13 in 55 games (0.24 pts/game).  

 

So Simmonds had similar numbers as a player 1 year older.  Let's give Jake the chance to develop properly;  after all he just turned 20 in August.  If he can produce as well as Simmonds has he'll be a keeper.

 

Cheers  -  Happy New Year everyone.  

[wai_lai416]

25 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

At worst he becomes a Raffia Torres like guy. Disappointing but hey, Torres was 3rd overall.

at worst? you mean at best? at least Torres scored 20 and 27 goals in this first 2 full season in the league and also a few 15+ during his career.. doubt Virtanen ever reaches 20 unless he all of a sudden matures up and play his ass off

[DownUndaCanuck]

I'm happy to be patient with Virtanen because lets be honest, the Canucks aren't contending any time soon, but when the rest of this core rounds out if Virtanen still isn't ready to contribute at a top-6 NHL level, we've wasted the pick completely.

 

Horvat is almost ready to lead this team. Hutton is close to being a consistent top-4 defenceman, Stecher is probably a year or two away from being a real top defenceman for this team. Tryamkin is growing and learning but still a year or two away from playing consistently, Baertschi and Granlund are showing what they're made of and are probably very close to their prime if not just starting it. Markstrom is playing his best hockey and maybe a year or two away from being a starter.

 

Our young core is creeping on the edge of their prime. We have to put guys like Juolevi, Virtanen and Boeser in that second round of guys who will come and contribute later. The key to success is having your core peak at the same time. Chicago's core did it and their prime is still lasting. We have to be able to do the same with our high draft picks so hopefully Virtanen is ready to score some goals in the NHL consistently in 2-3 years time. Boeser looks like he may challenge for an NHL spot next year or go to the AHL and if he does, I could see him being 2 years away from a consistent NHLer and maybe 3 from being a prime top-6 winger. Juolevi is probably 3 years away from the Canucks top-4 too. Lets give Virtanen in that case 3 years before we expect him to be a top-6 winger.

 

With that trajectory, we need him to start with the basics now. Sure, he's not producing offence at the NHL level. He's not even scoring in the AHL. Green is happy with his game and he is playing harder and much more physical over there. Get him to work on the defence, the physicality and the basics, then maybe next year get his offence going in the AHL a bit more, then the following year give him more NHL stints and hopefully he can produce offence at the end of that 3 year trial. After that we'll know if he's a bust or not. Now is far too soon, but we can't give the kid a decade, we need him to peak when the rest of the core does.

[funkyfresh]

6 hours ago, Gooseberries said:

Alot of people like to act like they knew all along that jake would turn out like he has. Such BS. We drafted jake because he is the style of player we need. We still need to this day. It's not our fault he isn't trending upward.he is one of the only high profile players that Benning has drafted that isn't showing signs of promise.

 

So is it our fault of his.

 

6 hours ago, Hugor Hill said:

 

The market wanted and needed a power forward who skates and hits hard and can shoot the puck, and Virtanen is right handed to boot.

It would've been hard to resist all that and draft Nylander, another smallish Swede.

Remember Jake last year drilling Mike Knuble into the boards and beating the crap out of Filip Forsberg for playing enforcer? That's why we drafted him. We need him to do THAT, and score reasonable amount of goals.

 

 

This is the problem though. You should never draft for need; that's when you start reaching. Just take the best player available and things will work themselves out. Plus, the type of player you are talking about is just so rare. 

 

From what I've seen, I don't project Virtanen as a power forward. Best case scenario, he's a straight-line shooter with size, speed and good hands. I think people see him throw big hits and assume he's a power forward. He doesn't get to the front of the net nearly enough and he can't play along the boards. He likes to wait in the high slot for a pass or he likes to take the puck in the defensive zone and use his speed to skate it in himself. He's the type of player who's always had the puck on his stick so he doesn't really know what to do when he doesn't have it. If he's going to be successful, the coaching staff will have to develop breakout plays around him or teach him how to play better without the puck.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

 

So sick of people just looking at stats and trying to compare Jake with other players.  I swear if I hear the name "Bertuzzi" one more time I'm gonna lose it. 

 

Use your eyes, watch how Jake plays.  He doesn't understand the concept of hard work, he doesn't have any hockey intelligence. He doesn't know when to hit, he doesn't know when to play tough, he doesn't know why he hits, he doesn't know why he needs to play tough.  He doesn't understand that floating around waiting for the puck to come to him just isn't going to work at this level.  He doesn't understand that when he makes a pass, he doesn't need to rifle it as hard as he can at the guys' head, he doesn't realize that you need to be in good shape.  He just doesn't have basic hockey knowledge in general, it's painful to watch.  He shows spurts of knowing how to play, that's what keeps me somewhat hopeful but my lord he's got a lot of work ahead of him

 

You can throw a Junior B player into an NHL season and who knows, maybe the kid gets lucky and wacks in a couple goals, maybe a couple go off his ass and he ends up with a handful of assists because of it.  Comparing stats from 1 season is pointless, you gotta look at the big picture. 

 

 

 

 

I used to be the first poster to defend Jake, when you pointed out others drafted after him who were better choices.  Well, I'm not defending Jake any more.  He's shown nothing to indicate he will even be as good as Skille.  I really don't see Jake having an NHL career.  

[canucklehead44]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

It's these first round picks, especially the high ones, that make the level of the rebuild.  So far JB looks like his four first rounders are leading us to becoming a middle of the pack team, at best.  

To be fair, while the sixth pick looks high it isn't really that much better than a later pick. There is a fairly big drop off after the top 3. 

For example, based on players drafted the quality of picks 6, 7, 11, 12, and 13 are all pretty similar. The 15th pick is the second worst pick of the draft behind the 30th. The 5th overall is much better than the 6th. 

At fifth I thought we would have to go with a forward. I was certain Dubois would be a Canuck. 

If Juolevi plays as smart as Tanev, and has a good attitude, he will be a phenomenal player for us. A coworker of mine played with Tanev at RIT and they are still close friends to this day. I asked him if he was surprised Tanev has had such a successful career, and if it was expected he could play pro during their time at college. 

What he told me was the captain that year was a highly intelligent player who really mentored Tanev to play a smart defensive game. Even though Tanev wasn't even the most skilled guy, he wasn't too surprised by his success in the NHL due to his hockey IQ. The other thing he mentioned is that Tanev is just an incredible human being. Super nice and humble, even to this day (the type of guy you want to succeed). He said if I joined them for beers sometime I would be shocked that I was hanging out with a pro athlete making 5 million per year. I think having Tanev on the team mentoring Juolevi will help him be successful.

This is also what made the Sedins highly successful (Naslund was a class act). I wonder if this is what is lacking in Jake's game (attitude & IQ). This is certainly the case with Kassian. Maybe Jake needs a good mentor and maturity (which will come with age). This is also why I believe the AHL is great - it helps players mature both physically and mentally. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by canucklehead44

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, canucklehead44 said:

To be fair, while the sixth pick looks high it isn't really that much better than a later pick. There is a fairly big drop off after the top 3. 

For example, based on players drafted the quality of picks 6, 7, 11, 12, and 13 are all pretty similar. The 15th pick is the second worst pick of the draft behind the 30th. The 5th overall is much better than the 6th. 

At fifth I thought we would have to go with a forward. I was certain Dubois would be a Canuck. 

If Juolevi plays as smart as Tanev, and has a good attitude, he will be a phenomenal player for us. A coworker of mine played with Tanev at RIT and they are still close friends to this day. I asked him if he was surprised Tanev has had such a successful career, and if it was expected he could play pro during their time at college. 

What he told me was the captain that year was a highly intelligent player who really mentored Tanev to play a smart defensive game. Even though Tanev wasn't even the most skilled guy, he wasn't too surprised by his success in the NHL due to his hockey IQ. The other thing he mentioned is that Tanev is just an incredible human being. Super nice and humble, even to this day (the type of guy you want to succeed). He said if I joined them for beers sometime I would be shocked that I was hanging out with a pro athlete making 5 million per year. I think having Tanev on the team mentoring Juolevi will help him be successful.

This is also what made the Sedins highly successful. I wonder if this is what is lacking in Jake's game (attitude & IQ). This is certainly the case with Kassian. Maybe Jake needs a good mentor and maturity (which will come with age). This is also why I believe the AHL is great - it helps players mature both physically and mentally. 

This is a good post.  I still don't see how JB's first round picks (so far) gets us beyond mediocre.  It sounds like we need some top three picks, if we want the top elite guys?  

[JustABandwagoner]

The only first round pick Benning did a good job on is Boeser. Rest are trash or meh (prob will get some people flaming me for this). I expect WAY MORE from someone who was brought in to do exceptional drafting. 

 

HOWEVER,

 

I have to give him some credit with his later round picks 

Edited January 9, 2017 by DontMessMe

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, DontMessMe said:

The only first round pick Benning did a good job on is Boeser. Rest are trash or meh (prob will get some people flaming me for this). I expect WAY MORE from someone who was brought in to do exceptional drafting. 

Oh you'll get the expected response that these guys need more time to see what they will become.  I give JB top marks for Boeser.  The other three could have been Ehlers, Pasternak, and Tkatchuk.  Huge misses, that a rebuilding team, with limited picks, just can't afford to make.  

[JustABandwagoner]

Just now, Alflives said:

Oh you'll get the expected response that these guys need more time to see what they will become.  I give JB top marks for Boeser.  The other three could have been Ehlers, Pasternak, and Tkatchuk.  Huge misses, that a rebuilding team, with limited picks, just can't afford to make.  

Juolevi and Virtanen were the biggest mistakes imo. 

 

Drafting McCann was aight. Not too mad about that cuz no one else in the league saw "Pasternak" 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, DontMessMe said:

Juolevi and Virtanen were the biggest mistakes imo. 

 

Drafting McCann was aight. Not too mad about that cuz no one else in the league saw "Pasternak" 

And JB did turn McCann into Gudbranson, so that's okay.  

[DeNiro]

Maybe it's time to just face the facts that this team has horrible player development, has for years.

 

It's not a coincidence that as soon as they get their hands on these young promising prospects they start to fade.

[canucklehead44]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

This is a good post.  I still don't see how JB's first round picks (so far) gets us beyond mediocre.  It sounds like we need some top three picks, if we want the top elite guys?  

Yes, at least two, unless you catch a guy who should have gone top 3 (like Kopitar) and pick up him later. Kopitar was the 2nd overall pick based on talent, but dropped due to being from Slovenia. 

Penguins - Crosby (1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall) 
Blackhawks - Kane (1st overal) Toews (3rd overall)
LA Kings - Doughty (2nd overall)

Boston and Detroit are the exceptions and their wins aren't too recent. Even Vancouver had Daniel & Henrik in their prime that year. 

If we had Draisaitl (34 points), Reinhart (24 points) or Ekblad instead of Jake and Matthews (35 points) or Laine (37 points) instead of Juolevi right now we would probably be much closer to being a contending team. 

Imagine this forward lineup:

Baertschi Horvat Laine 
Sedin Sedin Sutter
Granlund Draisaitl Eriksson

Or if we had Ekblad on our second pairing over Gudbranson. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Yes, at least two, unless you catch a guy who should have gone top 3 (like Kopitar) and pick up him later. Kopitar was the 2nd overall pick based on talent, but dropped due to being from Slovenia. 

Penguins - Crosby (1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall) 
Blackhawks - Kane (1st overal) Toews (3rd overall)
LA Kings - Doughty (2nd overall)

Boston and Detroit are the exceptions and their wins aren't too recent. Even Vancouver had Daniel & Henrik in their prime that year. 

If we had Draisaitl (34 points), Reinhart (24 points) or Ekblad instead of Jake and Matthews (35 points) or Laine (37 points) instead of Juolevi right now we would probably be much closer to being a contending team. 

Imagine this forward lineup:

Baertschi Horvat Laine 
Sedin Sedin Sutter
Granlund Draisaitl Eriksson

Or if we had Ekblad on our second pairing over Gudbranson. 

We need to win that friggin draft lottery, TWICE!  

[singing chef]

38 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

 

So sick of people just looking at stats and trying to compare Jake with other players.  I swear if I hear the name "Bertuzzi" one more time I'm gonna lose it. 

 

Use your eyes, watch how Jake plays.  He doesn't understand the concept of hard work, he doesn't have any hockey intelligence. He doesn't know when to hit, he doesn't know when to play tough, he doesn't know why he hits, he doesn't know why he needs to play tough.  He doesn't understand that floating around waiting for the puck to come to him just isn't going to work at this level.  He doesn't understand that when he makes a pass, he doesn't need to rifle it as hard as he can at the guys' head, he doesn't realize that you need to be in good shape.  He just doesn't have basic hockey knowledge in general, it's painful to watch.  He shows spurts of knowing how to play, that's what keeps me somewhat hopeful but my lord he's got a lot of work ahead of him

 

You can throw a Junior B player into an NHL season and who knows, maybe the kid gets lucky and wacks in a couple goals, maybe a couple go off his ass and he ends up with a handful of assists because of it.  Comparing stats from 1 season is pointless, you gotta look at the big picture. 

 

 

 

 

 

To quote from one of your earlier posts  (" I haven't been watching the game as long as a lot of you fossils"), I am one of these fossils.  Thanks for the (?) compliment.  To agree with the point you make in the final sentence of the above post, please re-read my post which states  " Let's give Jake the chance to develop properly;  after all he just turned 20 in August.  If he can produce as well as Simmonds has he'll be a keeper."   The operative word here is "develop".  If he doesn't then your assessment may be correct.

 

How's the snow in C.R. this afternoon  ?  Looks a bit dicey in my old stomping ground.

 

Cheers.