Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Alflives]

Just now, tas said:

I'm not sure keith tkachuk or brett hull ever showed up to a training camp in shape and they turned out ok. 

 

whats to be gained by writing off a 21 year old kid?

Hull for sure was a fatty.  The game is different now though.  It's hyper light speed fast.  Plus, Hull could always score, at every level.  Tkatchuk was a hard nosed power forward with plenty of sand paper.  Does Jake have either of those attributes?  If Jake comes to September camp at less than 210 and in elite shape, then we have a player.  What do we have if he shows up at 235 and out of shape for the fourth straight camp?  

[Gaudette Celly]

So now even in toughness Nylander is better than Jake.

[Toews]

33 minutes ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

Toews,

 

Early returns are often misleading. I too would take Jake over Joffrey, who would just get eaten alive in the west. In vancity he would likely be in Utica this season. 

 

I wanted Ehlers, but will back Jake for a while yet. Nylander will wilt under the post season pressure. Two years ago Gaudreau lit up the league, now he draws the attention of team defence  and his numbers are down. I think Johnny Hockey would kick Nylanders ass in regards to toughness. 

 

If I was LL, I would look to sell Nylander for another team need in the long run. 

 

EW

If Nylander were getting "eaten alive" against Western teams then he would not be posting identical numbers against Western teams as Eastern ones. Why would a guy who has more points than anyone on our team be playing in Utica?

 

There is no empirical evidence to support the notion that Nylander will struggle in the playoffs, seems like an argument that is more wishful thinking than reality. Gaudreau has a ridiculously low PDO this year suggesting that he hasn't gotten a lot of puck luck this year. This notion that teams have figured out how to deal with him is just not true.

 

That would be an incredibly risky trade, doubt LL would want to risk the whole thing blowing up in his face like it did with Chiarelli with Seguin.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Toews

[DeNiro]

People on here say that Nylander is too soft or that Tkachuk would be on the fourth line in Vancouver to make themselves feel better that we passed on great players.

 

When two prospects who were right there for the taking would now be leading your team in scoring, there's no other way to say it then management messed up. This team was desperate for scoring and they passed on scorers for toughness and a player who's ceiling is up in the air.

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

So now even in toughness Nylander is better than Jake.

Man that was horrible coverage by Philly. No one even touched him until after he scored 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

there's no other way to say it then management messed up. 

Or they're rightly more concerned what the team looks like in 2+ years than right now.

 

The other guys are perfectly fine players. Doesn't mean anyone messed up. You can't have all the players.

[Derp...]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Yes but when the context of the discussion is which pick is better then you have to consider which player ends up with the better career. I say this because the Cups argument has been used to justify a lot of dumb moves. Like Bruins fans claiming that they were the real winners of the Thornton trade as they got rid of a choker and won a Cup after. Its erroneous logic as they traded a future first ballot HOFer for a bag of pucks. The Sharks will always be the winners of that trade regardless of the Bruins Cup win in 2011.

Just because you can take a bishop (Thornton) with your pawn (bag o' pucks) doesn't mean you'll win a game of chess.

 

If you claim Jake is a pawn, and Nylander or Ehlers are knights for example then the reverse logic also applies. You can play to win, or you can measure one piece against another.

If this was a 1 player sport then the argument is clear, but it's not.

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Or they're rightly more concerned what the team looks like in 2+ years than right now.

 

The other guys are perfectly fine players. Doesn't mean anyone messed up. You can't have all the players.

In two years we'll probably be lacking scoring even more.

 

You don't pass on scoring for toughness, bottom line. Even if Ehlers or Nylander don't fit future plans, these two players will always have more value than Virtanen. They could have at the very least been used to acquire an impact player. 

[Alflives]

16 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

So now even in toughness Nylander is better than Jake.

Nylander is not tough.  He's a pink flamingo.

 

However, has Jake shown he's tough?  Not fighting tough, but playing a game that is hard on pucks?  I really haven't seen anything from Jake other than a perimeter game.  Does Jake have the character to play a tough game?  He's only showed a lack of character to this point.  

[aGENT]

Just now, DeNiro said:

In two years we'll probably be lacking scoring even more.

 

You don't pass on scoring for toughness, bottom line. Even if Ehlers or Nylander don't fit future plans, these two players will always have more value than Virtanen. They could have at the very least been used to acquire an impact player. 

We might very well. We are rebuilding after all.

 

You actually can't claim the underlined as truth. And there was certainly even less of a guarantee of it when they were all drafted.

[Toews]

2 minutes ago, Derp... said:

Just because you can take a bishop (Thornton) with your pawn (bag o' pucks) doesn't mean you'll win a game of chess.

 

If you claim Jake is a pawn, and Nylander or Ehlers are knights for example then the reverse logic also applies. You can play to win, or you can measure one piece against another.

If this was a 1 player sport then the argument is clear, but it's not.

That's exactly my point. You need a roster of 20 players to win a Cup. You simply cannot judge two players based on how many Cups they won. A player like Tavares has been surrounded by crap his entire career. Its also how you end up with the stupid list that TSN released a couple of years where a few executives and coaches voted Toews over Crosby as the best player in the league.

[DeNiro]

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

We might very well. We are rebuilding after all.

 

You actually can't claim the underlined as truth. And there was certainly even less of a guarantee of it when they were all drafted.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that Ehlers and Nylander would put up more points than Virtanen in their careers.

 

Virtanen was looked at as a project power forward that if everything went right in his development would be very valuable. That always represented a higher risk level though since there were apparent flaws to his game well before he was drafted.

[Beary Sweet]

Well Jake's path to success has been up and down. there are games where he is very noticeable and games where he is nowhere to be seen. So it's tough to judge who's a better player from that draft year that we didn't draft. Larkin, Ehlers, Nylander are all looking great but they go through slumps too. Larkin has had a tough year so far. We get to see Jake in action at the top of the hour and here's hoping he plays well

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

I don't think there was ever any doubt that Ehlers and Nylander would put up more points than Virtanen in their careers.

 

Virtanen was looked at as a project power forward that if everything went right in his development would be very valuable. That always represented a higher risk level though since there were apparent flaws to his game well before he was drafted.

Yup.

 

There is more to the game of hockey than an individual players GAP stat line though, right? A players GAP does not entirely equate to their value in trade or to their team.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

Yup.

 

There is more to the game of hockey than an individual players GAP stat line though, right? A players GAP does not entirely equate to their value in trade or to their team.

Nobodies putting more value on Virtanen right now though, and that's my point.

 

For him to close the gap on these two players he would have to take MAJOR strides over the next few years, which I don't see happening. At this point I think everyone just hopes he can become a full time NHLer at some point.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Nobodies putting more value on Virtanen right now though, and that's my point.

 

For him to close the gap on these two players he would have to take MAJOR strides over the next few years, which I don't see happening. At this point I think everyone just hopes he can become a full time NHLer at some point.

That may be your point but it's not what you posted

 

17 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

In two years we'll probably be lacking scoring even more.

 

You don't pass on scoring for toughness, bottom line. Even if Ehlers or Nylander don't fit future plans, these two players will always have more value than Virtanen. They could have at the very least been used to acquire an impact player. 

We'll see what happens. Adversity can be a good thing. I'm still optimistic he becomes a good player for us in a few years and am happy to see it through and not fret over every bad game and micro-analyzing his every move.  Right now, I just want to see him doing hard work towards playing with pace/attack, playing that way consistently and unlearning all his bad junior habits and generally becoming a pro. The rest should follow if he can do that.

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Nobodies putting more value on Virtanen right now though, and that's my point.

 

For him to close the gap on these two players he would have to take MAJOR strides over the next few years, which I don't see happening. At this point I think everyone just hopes he can become a full time NHLer at some point.

I just want to see Jake show up to the next camp in September under 210 and in proper (professional) shape.  At least if he's done those two things then we can see what we have.  To this point, because of his lack of professionalism we really don't know what we have, do we?

[guntrix]

3 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

Yes, yes, Ehlers and Nylander are putting up regular season points. 

 

Still, a team is more than the sum of its parts - and a part like Virtanen is both elusive to find and highly effective in the playoffs.  A physically dominant, 2-way winger who can pound opposing defence on the forecheck and score clutch goals with eite speed and great shot can tilt the ice in a 7 game series.  He has a long ways to go to hit that ceiling but it's still attainable.  

 

Wasn't a bad pick at the time and can still turn out to be a great asset for the franchise.  Hand wringing and whining from the usual suspects aside.

See, this is why hand wringing happens. I don't understand how one can presume Virtanen as a potentially "physically dominant, 2-way winger who can pound opposing defence on the forecheck and score clutch goals with elite speed and a great shot" when he can't even hold his own in the AHL at 20 years old. Heck,  considering his play this season, I'm doubtful he'd even be competent in the ECHL. 

 

Yes, development happens. But what some posters are expecting is unrealistic, especially when it's been proven time and again that late blooming power forwards like Doan and Bertuzzi had shown glimpses of elite ability early in their careers. You guys are hoping for a Hail Mary that not even Tom Brady can throw. 

[DeNiro]

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

That may be your point but it's not what you posted

 

We'll see what happens. Adversity can be a good thing. I'm still optimistic he becomes a good player for us in a few years and am happy to see it through and not fret over every bad game and micro-analyzing his every move.  Right now, I just want to see him doing hard work towards playing with pace/attack, playing that way consistently and unlearning all his bad junior habits and generally becoming a pro. The rest should follow if he can do that.

Well I think I can safely say Virtanen isn't going to close the gap on those two, so yes I would say they will always have more value.

 

As for micro-analyzing every game, it's not micro analyzing when you look at the last two years of his career. These last two years have been nothing short of underwhelming.

 

I'm still hoping for the best for him, but it's time to be realistic. He's not likely going to be the impact top 6 powerforward ala Todd Bertuzzi that we were all hoping for. A realistic expectation for him would more likely be a third line energy guy that can hopefully pot 15-20 goals one day. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by DeNiro

[GoBoGo53]

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

If Nylander and Virtanen where clay sculptures, the artist creating them would be putting the finishing touches on Nylander. Virtanen would be like an amorphous blob of clay still.

 

Yippee for Nylander, he got started sooner and he's closer to a finished product. 

 

I'm not so sure what's so difficult to understand about those of us willing to be patient? Are the other guys presently ahead? Yup. Were they always likely to put up more points? Yup. Has Virtanen matured and developed at a slower pace so far? Yup. 

 

Is it still FAR too early to declare any of them final products? Yup.

I don't understand how you can say this with so much certainty though...Nylander might be at the same stage of his development as Virtanen is. Virtanen's ceiling may just not be as high as Nylander. For all we know Nylander is just getting started.