Temporary foreign workers prepare to leave the country

[drummer4now]

Well how presumptuous of you to say so, without knowing my situation.

I've stood on my feet for 12 hours a day, canning and icing fish in the past...don't tell me what I will/won't do. As a single Mom of two kids who had both parents dying of cancer and a flooded house that still sits in disrepair, I have stories of my own. You have no idea. I worked 3 jobs at one time in order to make ends meet and I have NOTHING to speak of...everything is second hand and given to me. I bust my tail and can't make it in my first world country - that's a problem that now needs looking at (too).

And I'm finding it tough to stay afloat here....so unless we're planning on making this a third world country in the near future, with so many living at and under the poverty line, that is my first concern.

Again - see that lifejacket scenario. "Help" extends so far and then it becomes enabling. The long term goal should be to get people ahead so they can make moves toward a better life.

After years, if that hasn't happened then the program has failed anyhow. It's not meant to be "forever", which is why the word temporary was used. I have nothing but empathy and my daughter actually works in the field (of helping third world countries). But this program was a bit of a bust and not everyone applied it as they should have. And it's now expired...which is perfectly reasonable.

And all this was doing was allowing employers to jump on board and not pay or abide by Employment Standards as they should...I saw it in my workplace, first hand.

I can just sense the anger from your post Deb.. I know where you're coming from minus the part about poor unfortunate illnesses s and being a single parent with children..

If it makes you feel any better.. both of my parents work 3 jobs 40+hours and have been doing so for 7-8 years to make ends meet..

and they aren't the most glamorous jobs either..

[-DLC-]

As to the farm deal...I grew up in Steveston...nothing BUT farms and again, the fact that workers could be exploited through this program wasn't a good thing. Give employees a fair wage to be out there all day in the hot sun and people will do it. I have many farmer friends and that's how they did it. People WILL do the job if they're properly compensated for it.

That currently isn't the case and the desperation of people fleeing here for a better life is being exploited, not attended to, through this program. Sure, for these workers it's good money but there are standards in place for a reason. We're not going for the lowest bidder here...it should be at least minimum wage with overtime but that often isn't happening and workers are threatened to be fired (or don't speak English) when that is the case.

My ex boss used that tactic to drive warehouse workers to the point of exhaustion. They got regular pay despite logging ridiculous hours and he'd just threaten that "someone else will gladly do the job" if they kicked up a fuss. He tried to pay them in pizza, etc. My Mexican friend was one of them....there were actually fights as the workers grew agitated and frustrated. But hey, they had jobs right?

[Dral]

FTFY

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

[drummer4now]

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

My grandpa worked in a vineyard in his 70's... and we literally had to force him to retire because of his health and age.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Of course not, why pay when you can abuse the TFW program? Let's see what happens when we shut off the cheap labour tap.

I suspect some employers will happily just keep them on as illegals. 70,000 people? This ruling is going to be hard/time consuming to enforce, just as it is in the US.

[Lucky Day]

Thank you. This sounds like fiscal and economic decision-making I agree with. Let's get our people working and rolling, things are sooo competitive and tight out there, we have to take care of number one.

[-DLC-]

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

Give me a break. You aren't from around here, are you?

I grew up in a farming/fishing community....that is such a crock. Every man I know went to work in overalls and put in endless hours...wives actually stayed at home as housewives as a result. You may be soft, my family certainly wasn't and I'm offended by that statement.

*grumbles* on behalf of my Dad and grandfathers, you couldn't have been further from the mark here.

[Dral]

Well how presumptuous of you to say so, without knowing my situation.

I've stood on my feet for 12 hours a day, canning and icing fish in the past...don't tell me what I will/won't do. As a single Mom of two kids who had both parents dying of cancer and a flooded house that still sits in disrepair, I have stories of my own. You have no idea. I worked 3 jobs at one time in order to make ends meet and I have NOTHING to speak of...everything is second hand and given to me. I bust my tail and can't make it in my first world country - that's a problem that now needs looking at (too).

And I'm finding it tough to stay afloat here....so unless we're planning on making this a third world country in the near future, with so many living at and under the poverty line, that is my first concern.

Again - see that lifejacket scenario. "Help" extends so far and then it becomes enabling. The long term goal should be to get people ahead so they can make moves toward a better life.

After years, if that hasn't happened then the program has failed anyhow. It's not meant to be "forever", which is why the word temporary was used. I have nothing but empathy and my daughter actually works in the field (of helping third world countries). But this program was a bit of a bust and not everyone applied it as they should have. And it's now expired...which is perfectly reasonable.

All this was doing was allowing employers to jump on board and not pay or abide by Employment Standards as they should...I saw it in my workplace, first hand. So it was contributing to the deterioration of things as that played out.

2 things here Deb

1 - she is not going home to a similar situation you were in. It's far far worse. It's so not even close, it's almost disrespectful to compare the two. I'm not trying to downplay your situation and the hardships you've gone through, but until Canada turns into a third world country and by your paycheck alone you have to support your husband, your kids, your parents, your husbands parents and in many cases, extended family as well - all who are living in what can barely be described as a shack, living on a bowl of rice... it's not even close.

2- in many cases, these workers are doing jobs that Canadians won't do. I remember a case in the US a few years ago of one of the border states changing their temporary foreign immigration laws and farmers couldn't harvest their crops any more. I watch an interview of a farmer who said Americans won't work in the fields, and the few exceptions who try, don't last more then a day or two before they quit because the work is too hard.

I will however restate that even without knowing what you've personally gone through, I do know a few things....

I know your kids still managed to go to school. I know that when they got sick, the odds of them dying didn't come down to whether you had a job or not (or worse, making a choice that in order to get the proper medicine, everyone else in your family might have to not eat for a few days), I know that while your home may have been modest, it likely wasn't made out of cardboard.

I could go on, but I wont. Again, as I bolded those parts... I'm not trying to downplay your experiences... but living below the poverty line in Canada is nothing compared to life in a third world country.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

lol

[Dral]

Give me a break. You aren't from around here, are you?

I grew up in a farming/fishing community....that is such a crock. Every man I know went to work in overalls and put in endless hours...wives actually stayed at home as housewives as a result. You may be soft, my family certainly wasn't and I'm offended by that statement.

*grumbles* on behalf of my Dad and grandfathers, you couldn't have been further from the mark here.

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

You REALLY think your farming/fishing communities are a good representation of the entire cross section of people living in Canada and the US? I didn't say ALL of North Americans are soft... I didn't even say MOST are soft...

Honestly, I'm really disappointed in you if you're taking this personally because you're not even reading what I'm saying anymore.

[-DLC-]

I will however restate that even without knowing what you've personally gone through, I do know a few things....

I know your kids still managed to go to school. I know that when they got sick, the odds of them dying didn't come down to whether you had a job or not (or worse, making a choice that in order to get the proper medicine, everyone else in your family might have to not eat for a few days), I know that while your home may have been modest, it likely wasn't made out of cardboard.

I could go on, but I wont. Again, as I bolded those parts... I'm not trying to downplay your experiences... but living below the poverty line in Canada is nothing compared to life in a third world country.

So rather than spend time arguing here, perhaps go be part of the solution then? Donate. Go overseas and volunteer to help.

Oh I see, you'd rather just argue about it.

"A very large number of" and you're arguing with me. So yes, I did take it personally but am over it now and have to go do some stuff. It won't change the world, but I doubt you are either.

And I'm glad they're taking these measures because this program was a bust. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to help third world countries...as stated, my daughter is actively employed in doing just that. I'm saying this program isn't serving to be the best option. And while we have so many citizens here who are losing jobs with the folding of big box stores, etc., that is the first priority. Sorry?

[drummer4now]

Give me a break. You aren't from around here, are you?

I grew up in a farming/fishing community....that is such a crock. Every man I know went to work in overalls and put in endless hours...wives actually stayed at home as housewives as a result. You may be soft, my family certainly wasn't and I'm offended by that statement.

*grumbles* on behalf of my Dad and grandfathers, you couldn't have been further from the mark here.

I think what Dral means by "soft" is he was mainly addressing the generation after your father where people separated themselves from physical labour and what not through education and different avenues of work..

if you look at today's generation they have no time for such work as they're too preoccupied with when the next season of Mad Men is coming etc..

So that's where the TFW and immigrants come in to fill the void.

[Dral]

So rather than spend time arguing here, perhaps go be part of the solution then? Donate. Go overseas and volunteer to help.

Oh I see, you'd rather just argue about it.

"A very large number of" and you're arguing with me. So yes, I did take it personally but am over it now and have to go do some stuff. It won't change the world, but I doubt you are either.

And I'm glad they're taking these measures because this program was a bust. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to help third world countries...as stated, my daughter is actively employed in doing just that. I'm saying this program isn't serving to be the best option. And while we have so many citizens here who are losing jobs with the folding of big box stores, etc., that is the first priority. Sorry?

What? I don't even get this?

Are you actually telling me I'm not aloud to express my opinion here anymore and because I disagree with you I should shut up and go be apart of the solution instead?

Wow

[Webster6]

Think about how stupid and lazy the average person is.

Then realize that half of them are stupider and lazier than that.

[aGENT]

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

That we aren't currently paying the "real" cost on goods off the backs of borderline slave labour will come home to roost. It's a race to the bottom that I'd prefer we start to reverse.

[Webster6]

My grandpa worked in a vineyard in his 70's... and we literally had to force him to retire because of his health and age.

We now live in the generation of privilege.

[Lockout Casualty]

Unless you want to pay $50/lb for Apples, the pay is not the problem... the problem is a very large number of North Americans are not capable of doing back breaking labor because we're soft.

Not really. Canadians work in construction, garbage disposal, sanitation, and a long list of other dirty, back breaking, thankless jobs that are not much different than picking fruits in the sun. If not even more physically and mentally demanding. They do these jobs because they pay well better than farms.

I would not be against government subsidies to farmers if it means farmers' hands Canadian pickers will work instead of TFWs. As JR said, exploiting third world labour lets us avoid paying the true cost of agriculture, but there's no such thing as a free lunch, and so we're paying elsewhere, and probably more than we would otherwise.

At the end of the day, something is inherently wrong if our society depends on underpaid TFWs to function. It's either we keep kicking the can, or figure out a way to make it work. I vote for the latter.

TIL: Farmer's Hand is a card game term, not a farming term.

[riffraff]

Wow.

Once again.

Massive generalizations here.

[riffraff]

We now live in the generation of privilege.

Entitlement yes.

Privilege no.

[drummer4now]

Not really. Canadians work in construction, garbage disposal, sanitation, and a long list of other dirty, back breaking, thankless jobs that are not much different than picking fruits in the sun. If not even more physically and mentally demanding. They do these jobs because they pay well better than farms.

I would not be against government subsidies to farmers if it means farmers' hands Canadian pickers will work instead of TFWs. As JR said, exploiting third world labour lets us avoid paying the true cost of agriculture, but there's no such thing as a free lunch, and so we're paying elsewhere, and probably more than we would otherwise.

At the end of the day, something is inherently wrong if our society depends on underpaid TFWs to function. It's either we keep kicking the can, or figure out a way to make it work. I vote for the latter.

TIL: Farmer's Hand is a card game term, not a farming term.

All this debate/controversy about the western world in various topics and subjects has really made be think twice if I even want to stay here anymore lol..