[discussion] Who actually believes a 're-tool' works when the key core players are 35 years old?

[TOMapleLaughs]

A lot has been put on Higgins here. And Bieksa.

When Higgins first came here though, he was a 4th liner. He was never supposed to be a permanent top-6. Reason being he's prone to lengthly cold streaks. But don't worry, here comes Sven to save the day. He's pretty much guaranteed a top-6 spot to start next season, even though he's done nothing to earn that at the NHL level. Just like Vey was inexplicably given top power play time to start last season. Winning culture.

As for Bieksa, it's starting to look like he'll be a cap casualty. I'm wondering if he'll be approached, or if he has secretly wanted out for awhile now. Either way, it's looking more and more like the guys that got us there in 2011, aside from the Sedins, are all departing. And by the end of that process the Sedins contract will be up and perhaps they'll even return to Sweden. This is what happens during a what? A rebuild, that's what.

It's inevitable. So let's just pray that what's coming up is done the right way. No to insane TO-style trades. No to picking up expensive UFA garbage unless it's short-term. No to the pathetic pretend phase that we saw last season, followed by a playoff loss to the worst team in the playoffs.

We have center prospects, some wingers, some goaltenders, but few defensemen and no difference-making defensemen. I certainly hope the Canucks have a good plan to address this, and after Benning's attempt to get Ekblad last season, I think he knows how best to do it. But instead of trading multiple bluechippers for one bluechipper, shouldn't we just keep them and use the draft appropiately so we don't have holes going forward? Just a thought.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

A lot has been put on Higgins here. And Bieksa.

When Higgins first came here though, he was a 4th liner. He was never supposed to be a permanent top-6. Reason being he's prone to lengthly cold streaks. But don't worry, here comes Sven to save the day. He's pretty much guaranteed a top-6 spot to start next season, even though he's done nothing to earn that at the NHL level. Just like Vey was inexplicably given top power play time to start last season. Winning culture.

As for Bieksa, it's starting to look like he'll be a cap casualty. I'm wondering if he'll be approached, or if he has secretly wanted out for awhile now. Either way, it's looking more and more like the guys that got us there in 2011, aside from the Sedins, are all departing. And by the end of that process the Sedins contract will be up and perhaps they'll even return to Sweden. This is what happens during a what? A rebuild, that's what.

It's inevitable. So let's just pray that what's coming up is done the right way. No to insane TO-style trades. No to picking up expensive UFA garbage unless it's short-term. No to the pathetic pretend phase that we saw last season, followed by a playoff loss to the worst team in the playoffs.

We have center prospects, some wingers, some goaltenders, but few defensemen and no difference-making defensemen. I certainly hope the Canucks have a good plan to address this, and after Benning's attempt to get Ekblad last season, I think he knows how best to do it. But instead of trading multiple bluechippers for one bluechipper, shouldn't we just keep them and use the draft appropiately so we don't have holes going forward? Just a thought.

Please inform us what the right way is?

[Baggins]

Please inform us what the right way is?

The better question is what's the foolproof way?

The answer of course is there isn't one. You'll never convince the tank crew of that though. They're blinded by Chicago in one eye and Pittsburgh in the other. They can't see how well it's worked for Florida, Edmonton, Columbus, the Islanders etc. They also ignore how long Chicago and Pittsburgh floundered around the bottom of the league.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Either you choose to operate as a winning franchise, or a losing franchise. Chicago, when Bill Wirtz died and Rocky took over, immediately transformed into a winning franchise. The picks help, but without the franchise transformation from the top down, it would not have mattered who they drafted.

I believe the Canucks would like to be a winning franchise as well. But now they need the picks.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Either you choose to operate as a winning franchise, or a losing franchise. Chicago, when Bill Wirtz died and Rocky took over, immediately transformed into a winning franchise. The picks help, but without the franchise transformation from the top down, it would not have mattered who they drafted.

I believe the Canucks would like to be a winning franchise as well. But now they need the picks.

Um what…

If the picks didn’t matter to Chicago than why does Vancouver now need the picks?

Can you try to clarify?

[aGENT]

Um what…

If the picks didn’t matter to Chicago than why does Vancouver now need the picks?

Can you try to clarify?

I think what he's saying is that while getting some high picks helps and certainly increases your chances of getting NHL quality players and indeed exceptional ones... What's more important is how you develop whatever picks you get, high or low and how well you scouted them.

How you develop, support, nurture and bring them to a well managed, coached, trained team with every tool available to maximize their potential as well as how well you scouted those players and what types of players they are.

Picking good, hard working players and putting them in positions to succeed.

[slappipappi]

I believe we will be a legit stanley cup contender in 4-5 years which aligns with our 50 year anniversary. We can't just trade away all our veterans and give the top spots to rookies. That is a recipe for a disaster.

Do you really believe that?

Because the majority of the core of that team is not currently playing for the Canucks.

Canucks are about as far away from being a contender in 5 years as any team in the NHL. Take a look at the elite contenders today, and who in the Canucks systems look like they will be those types of players?

[TOMapleLaughs]

The truth is to win you need to be elite at everything. But if the players with elite natural abilities aren't there, and are instead on opposition teams, can you expect to win? But is there a foolproof way to get more of these type of players than your opponents? Hell no. All you can do is try to increase the odds of landing some.

People always seem to forget how we landed the Sedins in the first place. It wasn't a pleasant time. Similar experiences are upcoming, whether we like it or not. Maybe we should just get it over and done with, considering that making the playoffs only to be booted out by mediocre teams hasn't been all that great either.

[jimmyking8888]

They to get rid of all the old furnitures first. Too manyroster space.are wasted.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

The truth is to win you need to be elite at everything. But if the players with elite natural abilities aren't there, and are instead on opposition teams, can you expect to win? But is there a foolproof way to get more of these type of players than your opponents? Hell no. All you can do is try to increase the odds of landing some.

People always seem to forget how we landed the Sedins in the first place. It wasn't a pleasant time. Similar experiences are upcoming, whether we like it or not. Maybe we should just get it over and done with, considering that making the playoffs only to be booted out by mediocre teams hasn't been all that great either.

If you can’t see the benefit in what the team accomplished this year there’s no point in debating this with you. Horvat got more experience of a winning culture in one year than Taylor Hall has in that last 5 seasons. Which players are better for it in the long run. I don’t expect Horvat to lead the league in points but then again when is the last time a team has won a cup in which one of their players also lead the league in points.

See the problem is you believe the only way to build a team is through top 5 picks. But the reality is, sure you might get a high talent player in the top 5, but high talent and born winner are completely different. One year the third overall pick is Toews, the next it’s Turris. Turris is high talent but he’s not a Toews, there’s zero guarantee that by picking high, you get the “right” player. Why because you never know how a player is going to handle those pressure situation until they are in it. In fact look at the Lightning this year, right now their team MVP is a player that was never drafted. Doesn’t matter that they have Stamkos or Hedman if Johnson wasn’t on their team they wouldn’t have made it past the first round. See your problem along with every other person that wants to tank, is you’re blinded by flash. You want the a league leader, you want the MVP, but honestly that doesn’t win you cups. Just ask OVI. In the last 15 years only 5 top 5 picks have been Conn Smythe trophy winners. If they are so key to cup success shouldn’t that number be 100%. I’ve already pulled out the stats on how few top 5 picks actually win the cup, it doesn’t support your tank agreement one bit.

In the last 3 years. Canucks have 5 first round picks and currently have four top 15 picks in their system. Canucks have a ton of cap space freeing up over the next 3 years that allows us to go after some big UFA’s, add in top notch goaltending coming up as well as a mgmt group that knows what it takes to win. I would say the retool is going along nicely.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Seriously people love to throughout Hawks as the recipe for success but don’t really understand how lucky the hawk were that they landed one player, Toews. Toews is the key to the hawks success, he’s the best captain this league has seen since Steve Y. 2 Stanley cups (likely 3 at the end of the year), 2 gold medals, conn smythe and a team Canada MVP in 2010. Yes Keith Seabrook and Kane are great pieces but that third overall pick Toews is the key piece. Surely if canucks pick 3^rd overall one year we would get the next Toews right? Lets take a look.

2003- Horton

2004 –Cam Barker

2005 - Jack Johnson

2006 - Toews

2007 – Turris

2008- Bogosian

2009 – Duchene

2010 - Gudbranson

2011 – Huberdeau

2012 – Galchenyak

2013 – Drouin

Very good players, but are any on the same level as Toews? Outside if Duchene there is not one player that you can build a team around. In fact outside of Duchene and Toews, I likely wouldn’t trade Horvat straight up for any of them. Where was Horvat picked again?

[TOMapleLaughs]

I'd think we'd do fine in the 2016 draft.

[Honky Cat]

Seriously people love to throughout Hawks as the recipe for success but don’t really understand how lucky the hawk were that they landed one player, Toews. Toews is the key to the hawks success, he’s the best captain this league has seen since Steve Y. 2 Stanley cups (likely 3 at the end of the year), 2 gold medals, conn smythe and a team Canada MVP in 2010. Yes Keith Seabrook and Kane are great pieces but that third overall pick Toews is the key piece. Surely if canucks pick 3^rd overall one year we would get the next Toews right? Lets take a look.

2003- Horton

2004 –Cam Barker

2005 - Jack Johnson

2006 - Toews

2007 – Turris

2008- Bogosian

2009 – Duchene

2010 - Gudbranson

2011 – Huberdeau

2012 – Galchenyak

2013 – Drouin

Very good players, but are any on the same level as Toews? Outside if Duchene there is not one player that you can build a team around. In fact outside of Duchene and Toews, I likely wouldn’t trade Horvat straight up for any of them. Where was Horvat picked again?

Speaking of the Hawks...They picked Cam Barker 3rd overall in 2004 and Jack Skille with their 7th overall in 2005....Thats two busts in a row from the top of the draft ..Could you imagine our fanbase if we had picks like that..?...

Third times a charm,....In 2006 they finally got it right with Toews.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Speaking of the Hawks...They picked Cam Barker 3rd overall in 2004 and Jack Skille with their 7th overall in 2005....Thats two busts in a row from the top of the draft ..Could you imagine our fanbase if we had picks like that..?...

Third times a charm,....In 2006 they finally got it right with Toews.

Um, who did we pick in the 2005 draft again? I don't think we have to try hard to imagine 1st round busts in this market.

[Honky Cat]

Um, who did we pick in the 2005 draft again? I don't think we have to try hard to imagine 1st round busts in this market.

We picked Luc Bourdon..so we will never know how good he could've been.....As far as the Schroeders etc ,they were late 1st round picks,so its usually a toss up you'll make it, when you're drafted that late anyway....Unlike the Hawks who pissed away a 3rd and 7th overall.

[TOMapleLaughs]

We picked Luc Bourdon..so we will never know how good he could've been.....As far as the Schroeders etc ,they were late 1st round picks,so its usually a toss up you'll make it, when you're drafted that late anyway....Unlike the Hawks who pissed away a 3rd and 7th overall.

Some of those guys were high 1sts as well. Yes, we've had more of our share of draft blunders. Part of the reason why we're at where we're at right now.

[Gnarcore]

The truth is to win you need to be elite at everything. But if the players with elite natural abilities aren't there, and are instead on opposition teams, can you expect to win? But is there a foolproof way to get more of these type of players than your opponents? Hell no. All you can do is try to increase the odds of landing some.

People always seem to forget how we landed the Sedins in the first place. It wasn't a pleasant time. Similar experiences are upcoming, whether we like it or not. Maybe we should just get it over and done with, considering that making the playoffs only to be booted out by mediocre teams hasn't been all that great either.

I don't think many here were following the team then due to age but yes that was one of the darkest points in Canucks history. Had the 2nd highest payroll and finished 2nd to last in the league. This was the end of the Messier/Keenan experiment with Crawford brought in midway through the 98/99 season where they missed the playoffs for the 3rd year in a row. The only real bright spot was Marcus Naslund...

I don't think we get that dark but some not so great years are ahead unless we somehow get a top notch D prospect or two and a few of our prospects step up more than they're expected to.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Speaking of the Hawks...They picked Cam Barker 3rd overall in 2004 and Jack Skille with their 7th overall in 2005....Thats two busts in a row from the top of the draft ..Could you imagine our fanbase if we had picks like that..?...

Third times a charm,....In 2006 they finally got it right with Toews.

Don’t forget

Kyle Beach 11^th overall

Yakubov 10^th overall

Vorobiev 11^th overall

Combined total of 109 NHL games played.

[DrJockitch]

You guys are illustrating the fallacy of trading established NHL players for draft picks. Hell Linden Vey is better than many of the first round picks you mention and many other of our own first round picks.

Our current batch of first rounders has some promise but even then some are real stretches. Jensen is going to end up being a European pro, Gaunce is a stretch to be a consistent NHLer. Shink is improving but really doesn't seem to have the confidence of Benning if rumours last year were to be believed. Baerschi has not exactly dazzled when up. Sanguinetti looks borderline for NHL, probably career tweener. Virt has NHL tools, question will be if he can score at NHL level, he seems to have a great shot but so do a lot of career 4th liners.

I hope our player development is really improving and will maximize the talent of these guys and get them to be pros but the draft is an absolute crap shoot. We seem to be heading in the right direction and Green looks to be doing a great job. I love that Benning is personally getting involved with the Comets. Really makes them feel like part of the team and lets the players see that they are not just languishing in the minors but part of the ongoing plan.

[BanTSN]

Name one career 4th liner with a shot like Virtanen's?