[discussion] Who actually believes a 're-tool' works when the key core players are 35 years old?

[Burnsey]

Edmonton went on a rebuild 10 years ago. It's still going. Would you rather a team that will be competitive while injecting youth or a team that injects youth and goes nowhere?

Fans complain now, imagine a losing culture. Canucks did a lot better this year than expected. Playoffs were disappointing but I honestly didn't think they'd even make the playoffs, so this past season is a win in my books.

Next season will be better regardless of what happens in the off-season mainly because we know what Horvat can do. He won't get those sheltered mins at the start of the season like he did last season. Not at all saying he is our 'saviour' or anything but imagine having the 2nd half of the season Horvat for a full season. He really picked up his game and made good strides, and he'll be better next season. Hopefully another young guy gets injected or others can pick up their game too (Vey, Kassian, etc.)

[BanTSN]

Edmonton went on a rebuild 10 years ago. It's still going. Would you rather a team that will be competitive while injecting youth or a team that injects youth and goes nowhere?

Fans complain now, imagine a losing culture. Canucks did a lot better this year than expected. Playoffs were disappointing but I honestly didn't think they'd even make the playoffs, so this past season is a win in my books.

Next season will be better regardless of what happens in the off-season mainly because we know what Horvat can do. He won't get those sheltered mins at the start of the season like he did last season. Not at all saying he is our 'saviour' or anything but imagine having the 2nd half of the season Horvat for a full season. He really picked up his game and made good strides, and he'll be better next season. Hopefully another young guy gets injected or others can pick up their game too (Vey, Kassian, etc.)

Edmonton fans don't seem to be too bothered by it. Probably because they've already racked up 5 cups in the 80's, but also because they've just landing McDavid. Not saying that he'll win another cup with them, but it's not like it's going to be all bad for them going forward.

When all these teams around us get better than us, do you think that we're still going to have a winning culture? Why?

[TheHawk]

In 2011 Canucks managed to go to the finals but since that run have never made it out of the first round . They went to the finals in 94 also and also 82 did alright but have never won the "Cup". That is supposed to be the objective but without a couple very good forwards and a #1 and #2 Dmen Canucks are not going to do it.

Just making the playoffs IMO is not good enough, you have to listen to other teams fans saying "but how many Cups have you won". Yes Canucks have been competetive but never the less never won the "Cup". Canucks also have never had a #1 overall draft pick either. My point being that if even had Canucks never won the last game this year against the Oil would have been in a better draft position by a fair amount to draft a very good player in a deep draft. Yes Canucks have some very good young forwards like Vertanin[?], McCann, Horvat and others but do not have a "stud" Dman and there are 3 very good ones this draft year.

Making the playoffs is extra money for the owner and I guess that was the point of making it to the playoffs but is that also part of "a winning culture"? As others have said it should be what our "Rookies" strive for anyway, I mean Kane and Toews didn't start off in awinning enviroment in "Hawk" town.

In the playoffs our old"Core" didn't have enough to fend off the Flames youth so maybe it's over due for more young gus in the line up and some bigger youth to start taking over the riens sooner than later!

[48MPHSlapShot]

Edmonton fans don't seem to be too bothered by it. Probably because they've already racked up 5 cups in the 80's, but also because they've just landing McDavid. Not saying that he'll win another cup with them, but it's not like it's going to be all bad for them going forward.

When all these teams around us get better than us, do you think that we're still going to have a winning culture? Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtrzegOYOyY

Yeah, they seemed pretty bothered to me.

[Riviera82]

And right on schedule, we're talking about trading Lack for a 2nd rounder. The 2nd rounder that was useless to us before because the 2016 draft was deeper? The 2nd rounder we handed out for a player who didn't change our fortunes this season? What?

Why did we sign Miller in the first place when he's just getting in the way of Lack and Markstrom, and then following that up by getting hurt and doing nothing for us in the playoffs?

Weird, just weird.

A lot of people here love Lack. It's going to be interesting to see how much patience are going to have with Benning if he trades him away.

Maybe Linden has a damage control plan.

I think it's obvious that the goal of Canucks management is to keep this team as old and stale as possible while still selling tickets and being talented enough to get 2 or 3 home playoff gates. "Winning culture". I wish they would just cut out the dead weight (Higgins, Bieksa, Miller, etc.) and replace them with young players who could easily produce at the same rate (or better) for a lot less cap.

[Jack Fig]

In 2011 Canucks managed to go to the finals but since that run have never made it out of the first round . They went to the finals in 94 also and also 82 did alright but have never won the "Cup". That is supposed to be the objective but without a couple very good forwards and a #1 and #2 Dmen Canucks are not going to do it.

Just making the playoffs IMO is not good enough, you have to listen to other teams fans saying "but how many Cups have you won". Yes Canucks have been competetive but never the less never won the "Cup". Canucks also have never had a #1 overall draft pick either. My point being that if even had Canucks never won the last game this year against the Oil would have been in a better draft position by a fair amount to draft a very good player in a deep draft. Yes Canucks have some very good young forwards like Vertanin[?], McCann, Horvat and others but do not have a "stud" Dman and there are 3 very good ones this draft year.

Making the playoffs is extra money for the owner and I guess that was the point of making it to the playoffs but is that also part of "a winning culture"? As others have said it should be what our "Rookies" strive for anyway, I mean Kane and Toews didn't start off in awinning enviroment in "Hawk" town.

In the playoffs our old"Core" didn't have enough to fend off the Flames youth so maybe it's over due for more young gus in the line up and some bigger youth to start taking over the riens sooner than later!

You make some good "points".

[Crabcakes]

Hawk

You are absolutely right down to the point where you suggest that ownership insists on making the playoffs for the money.

Do you really think that the gate on 2 games.....what? $4 mil....is anything compared to what was thrown away on 2 misfits (Gillis and Torts) and on buying an AHL franchise and spending to the cap every year. No, it is small potatoes.

This plan to develop players in a winning environment is a legit strategy. We'll see as it plays out.

[pomorick]

Other teams in the west are all making major improvements through youth. Canucks and San Jose are the exceptions. Look for both teams to struggle to make the playoffs and be eliminated first round. Both teams

have old cores well past expiration date. Maybe we could trade Henrik and Daniel for thorton and marleau. We could fight it out for the last playoff spot Oh we would still suck and so would San Jose

[Watermelons]

I think it's obvious that the goal of Canucks management is to keep this team as old and stale as possible while still selling tickets and being talented enough to get 2 or 3 home playoff gates. "Winning culture". I wish they would just cut out the dead weight (Higgins, Bieksa, Miller, etc.) and replace them with young players who could easily produce at the same rate (or better) for a lot less cap.

You start off by implying that it's a bad thing that the Canucks are trying to make the playoffs and say that it's because the owners want to make a little extra money. Then you go and say that we should trade away our players to save cap space. What exactly are we saving the cap space for? Just for laughs?

It's hilarious when Canucks fans are obsessed with how much players are being paid but also want us to tank. If we are going to tank then there's no need to save cap space. Unless your name is Francesco Aquilini and you are paying the bills. I think most fans here would agree that the Canucks are at least three years away from being serious cup contenders. So why worry about cap space at all?

If anything, if Aquilini was so worried about making money he'd probably be pulling a Eugene Melnyk (owner of the Ottawa Senators) and impose an internal salary cap. He could easily have us spend only to the league minimum ($51 million) and save $18 million dollars a season. I really doubt 2 or 3 games in the playoffs make him more than that.

Also as a poster a couple posts above me pointed out, if the team was interested in profits only they wouldn't have fired Torts, Gillis and retained salary on the Luongo deal. Mr. Aquilini still has to pay those three men for years to come. If the Aquilini family was in this for the money...would they have spent millions of dollars renovating the Canucks dressing room, hiring sleep doctors, etc. to help give the team an edge? Would they have paid millions of dollars to buy an AHL team so that our team could better develop our prospects? Those aren't signs of someone who is in the business for the money. Note: I'm not saying that he doesn't care about money. Obviously money is part of his decision to run the Canucks. Would you invest hundreds of millions in a business and order your employees to blow it up and start from scratch. LOL.

Fans these days always buy what the media is wants them to. When we were winning it was the goaltending controversy and now that we aren't winning the media wants us to blame the owners. It's ridiculous. You look at teams like Toronto and Edmonton and the media talks about them as if they were legends and as if they were favourites to win the cup every year. Why does our media seem to have something against the team?

Lastly, your point about taking out "deadweight" and replacing them "easily" with young players is unrealistic. You mentioned Higgins, Bieksa and Miller. Miller is the only one who could be replaced "easily" by the Canucks. We have Lack and Markstrom who could be a good tandem for us next season.

Higgins may not be the best top six player but he comes cheap and can play on any of our lines. Who are we going to replace him with? We could lose both Matthias and Richardson to free agency. Do we really have the depth to take out Higgins as well?

Hmm....Bieksa. I didn't know that our defence was so strong in the playoffs that we have the luxury to get rid of players. Clendening and Corrado have both shown flashes of brilliance in the NHL but they are also young and inconsistent. We could also be losing Weber to free agency and Stanton is an RFA. Who is going to replace Bieksa? I don't see how Corrado, Clendening and Sbisa as our bottom 3 is any better than Bieksa, Sbisa and Weber.

It's definitely a great idea to pull an Edmonton and rush our prospects into the NHL right? Horvat may have adapted extremely well to the NHL game but he's more of an exception than the norm. It's not realistic to think that every one of our prospects could step into the NHL like Horvat did. Yes, we have young guys in Baertschi, Vey, Virtanen, Cassels, McCann, Corrado, Clendening, etc. who COULD step in but they have proven nothing. As Benning has said many times, if a young player is able to EARN a spot in the lineup he will make room for them. It's a better strategy to keep depth guys until the season starts so everyone has to earn their spot rather than being given one just because they are a flashy young player.

PS. Not trying to be condescending or anything. Just giving my two cents.

[48MPHSlapShot]

Other teams in the west are all making major improvements through youth. Canucks and San Jose are the exceptions. Look for both teams to struggle to make the playoffs and be eliminated first round. Both teams

have old cores well past expiration date. Maybe we could trade Henrik and Daniel for thorton and marleau. We could fight it out for the last playoff spot Oh we would still suck and so would San Jose

Bo Horvat and Logan Couture would like a word with you.

[Pears]

Bo Horvat and Logan Couture would like a word with you.

Same with Sven Baertschi and Tomas Hertl.

[apollo]

You lost me at sedins need a lot of assistance scoring... Smh

[Warhippy]

You lost me at sedins need a lot of assistance scoring... Smh

They do.....

Remind us again how secondary scoring doesn't win championships. Or how the Sedins alone without any assistance have won all those cups, or how one line teams go deep in the playoffs.

They need assistance scoring. Even Gretzky couldn't win a single cup after leaving the Oilers even with lucky Luc.

[Warhippy]

Can we all agree on one thing?

We are not winning a cup with the Sedins here barring a minor miracle. They cannot do it all by themselves and our defense and scoring depth is not at the place it needs to be to compete.

We can agree on that right?

OK good.

Now about retooling. Sure we can pretend to hang with the up and coming teams in the west. But truth is we're getting older and slower and they're getting younger deeper and faster.

Sure we have Horvat/Bear Cheese/Virtanen/Cassels/McCann etc to be excited about soon.

But that's soon. Until the twins leave we are pretending to compete to show these young kids what it takes to win or lose in this league.

We are currently a bubble team, in 2 years we won't even be that. That is a fact, we will be surpassed by the other teams and the current bottom feeders here in the west in edmonton and Arizona can only get better in the coming seasons while we will start wallowing in the bottom 10 of the league

Is it unfortunate? Yes.

But it is cyclical and to be expected, teams rise and fall. We had a decade or more of success without winning the ultimate goal. Now we need to start over on both D and forwards, we need to shed cap and really start kicking this development program off.

Brace yourselves because while we are simply retooling. The truth is we're only holding off the inevitable until the twins leave because once they're gone it's a full blown rebuild.

The only and I do mean ONLY benefit to this is, that when we're drafting in the top 10 on our own merits. The players we draft high in 3, 4 and 5 years will be moving in to the AHL and on to the team when players like Virtanen, Subban, Cassels, Grenier, Horvat, Shinkaruk (should they all stay with the org) are going to be entering their 2nd. third and fourth years

So again, while we may be retooling now. We're staving off the inevitable for the moment which is fine. Let's just be honest about that

[Maniwaki Canuck]

We've got Utica one win away from the finals with several good prospects ready to make the jump and more ready to take their places. With a couple of moves to clear cap and restructure our D, I don't think it's out of the question to contend while the Sedins are still here. So yeah, I'd say a re-tool can work with them as core pieces if JB can pull off 2-3 strategic moves. It won't be easy, but it's possible.

[TOMapleLaughs]

To the OP, the answer is nobody.

[D-Money]

Anaheim did a quick retool. After firing Mike Babcock, they made the playoffs by signing the legend scotty.

The only way to save a rebuild is to sign the right guys. At this moment, there are no free agents that can save this team. So, yep. That leaves option 2, trading away some of the veterans and getting some solid young guys. So yeah.

This is absolute nonsense. "Quick retool"?

The top-5 scorers on the Ducks in 2003-04 (last season before lockout) were: Sergei Federov, Vinny Prospal, Petr Sykora, Steve Rucchin, and Joffrey Lupul. None of them were with the Ducks when they won their cup.

In fact, only 5 players on the 2006-07 Stanley Cup Ducks team were in Anaheim prior to the lockout: McDonald, Selanne, Pahlsson, Kunitz, and R. Neidermayer.

Two of the players Burke acquired (Pronger and S. Neidermayer), were miles better than any D-man who has EVER played for the Vancouver Canucks. And two of the young guys they found late in the first round (Getlaf and Perry) are better than all but one guy we've ever drafted outside of the top-10 (Bure).

..."Quick retool" my a$$.

[Mr.53]

I like how your list includes all sorts of players who haven't made the team yet. Out of those, how many will be traded due to the 'winning culture' demanding that vets remain? Such as the guy you've not surprisingly ommitted, Jensen. I'm not saying that he should be handed a spot automatically because he basically stinks and we should have picked up Saad, who's probably benefitting from a better winning culture in Chicago, but he's the type of player that Detroit would have embraced in their retooling process for years now.

Instead of that though, you have the GM and minor league coach basically say that Jensen stinks and won't ever be a scorer in the NHL.

Who believes that is the right approach to take with kids during a retooling process, rebuilding process, or whatever process you want to say it is, when the core is older than any other in the NHL and you NEED these kids to ultimately perform?

Are we going to start saying the same things about all those other prospects who haven't made the team yet, because we have to keep a spot for some veteran 4th line scrub and a 4th-pairing defenseman on a ripoff contract? Is that part of the winning culture too?

It's strange, because all you hear is that change is coming. Well, we've seen mishandling of prospects forever, we've seen bad trades forever, and we've seen bad contracts force other bad moves forever. It seems that if this is continuing on and on now, then change might NOT be coming.

Yeah, those guys on my list are prospects… By definition they haven't made the team yet. Why do you have this idea that it's just unreasonable to expect a prospect to earn his way onto a team by outperforming everyone else? We had a 23 year old and a 19 year old do exactly that. Kenins and Horvat were not handed a spot. They battled hard and earned it. Jensen however did not.

Have you seen Jensen play this year? I'm a big Jensen supporter as the kid has the tools to be big time. 6'3, 200 pounds, and has the smoothest stride and overall best skating ability on the Comets. (With Virtanen there now that becomes debatable) He has the ability to snipe corners and has quality puck skills to boot. At the beginning of the season, analysts were referring to him as the most dangerous player on the Comets. Who could deny them? That skill set? So how did the most dangerous player do? 14 goals, 28 points, and a -12 rating in 59 games. Jensen played like trash this year, plain and simple. He didn't earn his spot. Bo and Ronny Kenins did.

Detroit would have let Jensen sit in the AHL as long as it took. Again, my proof of this is Gustav Nyquist and Anthony Mantha. Gustav Nyquist was similar to Jensen in that everyone knew he had all the tools to be dangerous. Drafted in 2008. Didn't play a game for the wings until 2011. He got 18 games, and was sent down because he wasn't ready. 2012, same thing. He got 22 games. They sent him back to the AHL twice. It wasn't until 2013, did Nyquist earn a spot and now he's a valued member. Drafted in 08, and they waited until 2013. That is what I call patience. Anthony Mantha is my other example as he is a little more current. I suspect after an incredible season like he had winning CHL player of the year, you would have said, embrace him, and give him a spot. Well Detroit said no. He came into camp, and didn't outperform the other players on the roster, and they sent him back to the AHL. Detroit does the exact opposite of what you say and that's why they are successful. They draft well, and they don't rush their guys. By doing so, more guys in the end, end up making it.

And dude, again, you're putting words in the mouth of JB and WD, just like you did mine. STOP WITH THE STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS. Benning and WD never said, or insinuated "Jensen stinks and won't ever be a scorer" Your twisting their words. They said that Jensen has great scoring ability, but lacks the consistency to be a major scorer in this league. Jensens problem is he has the skill set to be a scorer, but he lacks the consistency, and hasn't rounded out his game to be effective in other ways, such as in a defensive checking role. They are not saying he will never be anything. They are pretty much saying, "look kid. You got skills. But not enough to earn a spot. Either round out your game and become a Jannik Hansen type player, or develop more consistency in your scoring, because until you do either one, you will be a liability to this team." Which he would. Bo rounded out his game, Kenins rounded out his game, Jensen didn't. He simply didn't earn a spot, and Detroit would have sent him back too.

Yes we "NEED kids to ultimately perform." So, you wait until they have the ability to perform. That's exactly why you wait until they are NHL ready. If they are not NHL ready, they won't perform. They will get crushed. When Jensen proves he can play in the NHL, he will. You act as if Jim Benning doesn't want Jensen to perform. I guarantee you, he would love nothing more than for Jensen to become a 30 goal scorer in this league, but that's up to Jensen to prove he can even consistently play on the roster. The kids struggles with consistency on the AHL level for christ sake.

"Are we going to start saying the same things about all those other prospects who haven't made the team yet, because we have to keep a spot for some veteran 4th line scrub and a 4th-pairing defenseman on a ripoff contract? Is that part of the winning culture too?"

My answer: NO. What are you talking about dude? Do you even watch this team? We had 2 rookies on the fourth line this year… what are you talking about "keep a spot for some veteran 4th line scrub". We literally didn't do that. We gave the fourth line job to 2 rookies and 1 vet to help mentor them. We literally did the exact opposite of what your saying dude. I swear you're not watching the same team. Either that or you have the same talking points and don't actually look objectively at what's happening. Half the things you are saying are the exact opposite of the truth. I'm talking not even 50%. I'm talking 100%.

You're all emotion and no facts.. Listen to your last sentence. All emotional appeal. Never before have we had a better prospect pool than we have now. That's as close to a fact as you can get. During the trade deadline, and althroughout the year, Benning did not trade prospects for veteran roster players. (Adam Clendening is not a veteran roster player) Now that is a fact. I understand that you have a "the world is on fire" mentality all the time, but take a step back and actually look at the facts and details. Your arguments are all talking points and no substance.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Can we all agree on one thing?

We are not winning a cup with the Sedins here barring a minor miracle. They cannot do it all by themselves and our defense and scoring depth is not at the place it needs to be to compete.

We can agree on that right?

OK good.

Now about retooling. Sure we can pretend to hang with the up and coming teams in the west. But truth is we're getting older and slower and they're getting younger deeper and faster.

Sure we have Horvat/Bear Cheese/Virtanen/Cassels/McCann etc to be excited about soon.

But that's soon. Until the twins leave we are pretending to compete to show these young kids what it takes to win or lose in this league.

We are currently a bubble team, in 2 years we won't even be that. That is a fact, we will be surpassed by the other teams and the current bottom feeders here in the west in edmonton and Arizona can only get better in the coming seasons while we will start wallowing in the bottom 10 of the league

Is it unfortunate? Yes.

But it is cyclical and to be expected, teams rise and fall. We had a decade or more of success without winning the ultimate goal. Now we need to start over on both D and forwards, we need to shed cap and really start kicking this development program off.

Brace yourselves because while we are simply retooling. The truth is we're only holding off the inevitable until the twins leave because once they're gone it's a full blown rebuild.

The only and I do mean ONLY benefit to this is, that when we're drafting in the top 10 on our own merits. The players we draft high in 3, 4 and 5 years will be moving in to the AHL and on to the team when players like Virtanen, Subban, Cassels, Grenier, Horvat, Shinkaruk (should they all stay with the org) are going to be entering their 2nd. third and fourth years

So again, while we may be retooling now. We're staving off the inevitable for the moment which is fine. Let's just be honest about that

So let me get this straight. You think that canucks are destined to become a bottom feeder in 2 years?

Is the only way to build a cup contender by drafting top 5 picks?

Is the only way to build a core through the draft?

What is the point of this post? Are you saying get rid of the twins and get on with the rebuild?

The difference between Horvat and any Oilers prospect development is:

Oilers were giving a spot on the team, the other had to prove in his 9 game tryout that he deserved it.

Oilers were immediately giving top line roles and expected to carry his team in scoring, the other was put on the fourth line and given a limited role.

This is why the Sedin’s are so important to our retool. They take the weight off the rookies. As long as the twins are here, the pressure will always be on them and not our prospects. This allows our prospects to come in, learn the NHL game and build their confidence, at their own pace. We don’t force any players into the lineup and we don’t force carrying the team on the shoulders of a players not ready for it.

[Ghostsof1915]

So let me get this straight. You think that canucks are destined to become a bottom feeder in 2 years?

Is the only way to build a cup contender by drafting top 5 picks?

Is the only way to build a core through the draft?

What is the point of this post? Are you saying get rid of the twins and get on with the rebuild?

The difference between Horvat and any Oilers prospect development is:

Oilers were giving a spot on the team, the other had to prove in his 9 game tryout that he deserved it.

Oilers were immediately giving top line roles and expected to carry his team in scoring, the other was put on the fourth line and given a limited role.

This is why the Sedin’s are so important to our retool. They take the weight off the rookies. As long as the twins are here, the pressure will always be on them and not our prospects. This allows our prospects to come in, learn the NHL game and build their confidence, at their own pace. We don’t force any players into the lineup and we don’t force carrying the team on the shoulders of a players not ready for it.

Hey, hey, enough of that. We can't have logic here!!!