Brock Boeser | #6 | RW

[elvis15]

why?

Boeser may have a better pure shot but MacKinnon's work ethic and high end ability makes him a better bet to succeed in an offensive position than Brock in my opinion.

Players who succeed in today's NHL can't be a defensive liability 99% of the time, but MacKinnon does not fall in the liability category. If nothing else I'd rather have the player already making a good impact in the NHL at a young age than a player who projects to be pretty good but hasn't played a pro game yet.

Edited August 19, 2015 by elvis15

[Alflives]

Boeser may have a better pure shot but MacKinnon's work ethic and high end ability makes him a better bet to succeed in an offensive position than Brock in my opinion.

Players who succeed in today's NHL can't be a defensive liability 99% of the time, but MacKinnon does not fall in the liability category. If nothing else I'd rather have the player already making a good impact in the NHL at a young age than a player who projects to be pretty good but hasn't played a pro game yet.

Mackinnon is making a very negative effect, defensively, on his team. IMO. And I think your number of 99% is a lot lower than that. A player's defensive liability must be balanced against his offensive production, and intangibles. Mackinnon brings no intangibles, and his offence does not make up for his extremely poor defence. He's not as bad as Druin or Nukushkin, but I still say Boeser will learn the proper way to play, before he comes to the nucks.

[elvis15]

There are about 700 players in the league, how many do you think are so good offensively that they can afford to be kept on a team despite being a defensive liability? If you can think of 70, that's 10%. If you can think of 35, that's 5%. Maybe only 1% is too low, but it's not by a lot.

But your opinion of MacKinnon having a very negative effect isn't accompanied by anything resembling proof. MacKinnon has a positive giveaway/takeaway ratio, the same with his offensive zone start and finish rate (which is better than Duchene's). Even if he had a -7 last year his quality of competition is very high and he led the Avs in Corsi/Corsi Rel.

To try and rate Boeser close to or even above MacKinnon just isn't realistic - especially when Boeser has proven nothing to date while MacKinnon has. I'd be extremely surprised (and pleased) to see Boeser become a better 'star goal scorer' than MacKinnon while also bringing a better defensive game.

Edited August 19, 2015 by elvis15

[Alflives]

There are about 700 players in the league, how many do you think are so good offensively that they can afford to be kept on a team despite being a defensive liability? If you can think of 70, that's 10%. If you can think of 35, that's 5%. Maybe only 1% is too low, but it's not by a lot.

But your opinion of MacKinnon having a very negative effect isn't accompanied by anything resembling proof. MacKinnon has a positive giveaway/takeaway ratio, the same with his offensive zone start and finish rate (which is better than Duchene's). Even if he had a -7 last year his quality of competition is very high and he led the Avs in Corsi/Corsi Rel.

To try and rate Boeser close to or even above MacKinnon just isn't realistic - especially when Boeser has proven nothing to date while MacKinnon has. I'd be extremely surprised (and pleased) to see Boeser become a better 'star goal scorer' than MacKinnon while also bringing a better defensive game.

I admit I'm not a big fan of those number things. Hockey, to me, is not a video game. If a player does not bring intangibles, then he sure better be putting up points. Mackinnon hurts his team. He's a negative player. Boeser, IMO, will be a better goal scorer, and a better two way player.

[TheHockeyNerds]

I love horvat, but anyone who thinks he is better then mackinnon has lost their mind

[Derp...]

He's better in different ways. Just like every good player. Stronger, faceoffs, blocking shots Defensive positioning

Edited August 19, 2015 by Derp...

[elvis15]

I admit I'm not a big fan of those number things. Hockey, to me, is not a video game. If a player does not bring intangibles, then he sure better be putting up points. Mackinnon hurts his team. He's a negative player. Boeser, IMO, will be a better goal scorer, and a better two way player.

Well, he did have 38 points in 64 games as a 19 year old. I'm not sure what more you can ask than that. You can't just say "but intangibles" or "he's a negative player" without showing us something to better quantify that.

[Bure_Pavel]

If there was a redraft mackinnon would be still first overall for sure, I would trade horvat and Brock for him in a heartbeat

[Mathew Barzal]

If there was a redraft mackinnon would be still first overall for sure, I would trade horvat and Brock for him in a heartbeat

Seriously. These last two pages have been such a farce. I can't wait to see what happens when McDavid hits a slump.

Hurr durr Horvat > McDavid

[Alflives]

Well, he did have 38 points in 64 games as a 19 year old. I'm not sure what more you can ask than that. You can't just say "but intangibles" or "he's a negative player" without showing us something to better quantify that.

That's the issue with these stat things; the intangibles are not measurable. The only measure of a negative player is plus/minus, and I'm not a huge fan of that stat.

[Alflives]

If there was a redraft mackinnon would be still first overall for sure, I would trade horvat and Brock for him in a heartbeat

I must humbly disagree. The draft would go:

Jones

Monohan

Horvat

As things stand now, Macinnon would not return any of these three. IMO

Virtanen is awesome. I think only Ekblad will be considered a more impactful NHL player than him from his draft. Trading Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser, or any of our top prospects would be a bad move. I would trade only one of our top guys - McCann. I'm not a big fan of this player, and would trade him for a prospect, like ?

[elvis15]

That's the issue with these stat things; the intangibles are not measurable. The only measure of a negative player is plus/minus, and I'm not a huge fan of that stat.

Sure, and intangibles only show when you watch. Well, I've watched, and MacKinnon is certainly better than Boeser (which is where we started) and I'd also say better than Horvat. Unless you can show what you mean with some video evidence then I'm still much, much closer to the "I'd trade Horvat and Boeser for MacKinnon" camp than I am to you saying both can be or are better individually than MacKinnon right now.

I'm not even going to get started on the "only Ekblad will be a more impactful player than Virtanen from that draft" argument.

Edited August 19, 2015 by elvis15

[73 Percent]

Sure, and intangibles only show when you watch. Well, I've watched, and MacKinnon is certainly better than Boeser (which is where we started) and I'd also say better than Horvat. Unless you can show what you mean with some video evidence then I'm still much, much closer to the "I'd trade Horvat and Boeser for MacKinnon" camp than I am to you saying both can be or are better than MacKinnon right now.

nah man thisbis CDC land where dirt tastes like bacon, beer is good for you, horvat is better than MacKinnon, cassels is better than mcdavid, and McCann is a lock for our future 1c.

[elvis15]

^^

But he doesn't like McCann, so scratch that part.

[73 Percent]

^^

But he doesn't like McCann, so scratch that part.

haha. Go check out the young stars tournament thread. Ossi says the only player hes scared of (offensively) on oilers is nurse. WTF!?! Edited August 19, 2015 by Gooseberries

[elvis15]

At the risk of scaring him off further with more numbers ("but intangibles!") I've attached an interesting comparison on MacKinnon and Horvat's performances last year (which was a sophomore slump for MacKinnon vs Horvat's breakout year). Horvat was only clearly better than MacKinnon in blocks, faceoffs and goals per 60 minutes of playing time, with a smaller advantage in hits. MacKinnon was far better on takeaways and Corsi related metrics, but also better than Horvat on points and assists per 60 and penalty differential.

http://war-on-ice.com/bombay-scores.html

Edited August 19, 2015 by elvis15

[73 Percent]

At the risk of scaring him off further with more numbers ("but intangibles!") I've attached an interesting comparison on MacKinnon and Horvat's performances last year (which was a sophomore slump for MacKinnon vs Horvat's breakout year). Horvat was only clearly better than MacKinnon in blocks, faceoffs and goals per 60 minutes of playing time, with a smaller advantage in hits. MacKinnon was far better on takeaways and Corsi related metrics, but also better than Horvat on points and assists per 60 and penalty differential.

http://war-on-ice.com/bombay-scores.html

i love it when elvis talks dirty.

[Dutch_Canuck]

I must humbly disagree. The draft would go:

Jones

Monohan

Horvat

As things stand now, Macinnon would not return any of these three. IMO

Virtanen is awesome. I think only Ekblad will be considered a more impactful NHL player than him from his draft. Trading Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser, or any of our top prospects would be a bad move. I would trade only one of our top guys - McCann. I'm not a big fan of this player, and would trade him for a prospect, like ?

I'm sorry but there is no way these three would get drafted higher than Mackinnon. Mackinnon is still the best offensive player out of that draft. Jones would slide up for sure, and maybe Florida redrafts Monahan instead of Barkov to fit the center they are looking for.

That's a very steep accusation to say Virtanen will be the second most impactful player. As far as right now, Bennett will be the second most impactful player considering he played above and beyond in the playoffs.

I also believe Reinhart will be a very good player, he is one of those players that will beat you with hockey IQ. He doesn't need the physical attributes as most other players do because he has the brains to get around you. That attribute sounds very familiar because that's how the Sedins play, not saying he will have a career like a sedin but he has the potential. I think you're over valuing our prospects.

[Erik Karlsson]

I'm sorry but there is no way these three would get drafted higher than Mackinnon. Mackinnon is still the best offensive player out of that draft. Jones would slide up for sure, and maybe Florida redrafts Monahan instead of Barkov to fit the center they are looking for.

That's a very steep accusation to say Virtanen will be the second most impactful player. As far as right now, Bennett will be the second most impactful player considering he played above and beyond in the playoffs.

I also believe Reinhart will be a very good player, he is one of those players that will beat you with hockey IQ. He doesn't need the physical attributes as most other players do because he has the brains to get around you. That attribute sounds very familiar because that's how the Sedins play, not saying he will have a career like a sedin but he has the potential. I think you're over valuing our prospects.

I think he might be trolling. He said Boeser is going to be the best American player from the draft that includes Eichel..... and then there's still Hanifin and Werenski...

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

At the risk of scaring him off further with more numbers ("but intangibles!") I've attached an interesting comparison on MacKinnon and Horvat's performances last year (which was a sophomore slump for MacKinnon vs Horvat's breakout year). Horvat was only clearly better than MacKinnon in blocks, faceoffs and goals per 60 minutes of playing time, with a smaller advantage in hits. MacKinnon was far better on takeaways and Corsi related metrics, but also better than Horvat on points and assists per 60 and penalty differential.

http://war-on-ice.com/bombay-scores.html

Comparing Apples to Apples...if Horvat has an even better sophomore season then his rookie season....all the numbers he was not as good at his rookie season may have improved enough to push this argument 180 degrees.

I personally think I would rather have Horvat...close but I just think Bo will continue to be a force and his skating has just reached a level that is above average...a bit more improvement there and who knows Bo's limits.

Absolutely Captain material.