Decision Time Is Now or Is It Already Made? Ramblings.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I think that Benning is more of a developer than a drafter.

Call it arrogance but he thinks that he can draft players with the God given skills that he wants, speed, tenacity, good shot and the right kind of character at age 17 and if he has them for up to 8 years by the time they hit their prime, he can turn them into good players.

Let's look at his development record with the Canucks (it's only 2 years)

Horvat, his one shortcoming was speed, he's been coached up on that, no longer an issue

Vey, looked like a wash out in April and again in October, not so much now.  He's resurrecting the game that made him effective in junior and in the AHL which is strong down low and good distribution.  I'm not saying he's "strong" but he's all over the puck below the hash marks.

Baertschi, found his confidence, good defensive play, he's a smaller player and takes a good lick every now and then but comes back and still plays his game.  A keeper.

Gaunce, speed no longer an issue

Zalewski, where did this guy come from?  A year ago he looked like a wash out, now he's the hottest thing in Utica and has a very good shot at making the Canucks next year.

Others (and all of the above) are works in progress.

The trick moving forward is keeping Travis Green in the system.  I give him a lot of credit but I also don't forget who is in charge.  That is Jim Benning.

I thank you for your positivity.    I think as a long time (from day one ) Canuck's fan, I feel we are dropping into the middle of the pack - which is not where teams draft elite scoring skill - like our two best scorers: the Twins.  Reading your post, helps me (with evidence) accept that JB can not only draft these elite guys later in rounds, but he can develop them too.  I guess at this TDL we shall see if JB thinks all our prospects will be able to contribute at the NHL level (scoring especially) when he either trades them or not.  If a guy like Gaunce gets packaged with Hamhuis or Vrbata, we know JB thinks that young guy (whomever he is) doesn't have what it takes.  This having confidence in the GM's plan of retool is not so easy, but I appreciate your post's efforts.

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, CeeBee51 said:

 

As much as I liked Dale Tallon( at least a little bit)  that wheel set our destiny in motion.  I'll never forget watching the French connection line and wishing that wheel spin had turned out differently.  

Maybe we should have kept Talon in our organization: player to coach to Gm?  He's a darned smart GM.

[greetingsfrombrazil]

14 hours ago, Ossi Vaananen said:

I wonder if after the deadline, and pieces are moved if the roster auditions would be that of Shinkaruk/Gaunce/Pedan or others from Utica, or if post-deadline we sign the likes of Rodin and Tryamkin. The European leagues finish around that time (early March), so it would give us a chance to bring over these guys and audition them in the bigs for the last ~20 games. A one year, one way contract for Rodin would give us the 20 games to burn it and see if he can play. The Tryamkin deal would be a standard ELC, but we'll get the chance to see what he can bring at the end of the season.

I personally would support bringing up Utica guys first, but it's an interesting thought, as to see whether Rodin/Tryamkin could potentially crack the NHL in 20 mean nothing games. 

Anyways, the roster with Vrbata/Hamhuis moved and Rodin/Tryamkin slotting in:

Sedin Sedin Hansen
Baertschi  Horvat Rodin
Burrows Vey Etem
Dorsett Sutter Virtanen
(McCann)

Edler - Tanev
Hutton - Sbisa
Tryamkin - Biega/Bartkowski

Now the Utica guys:

Sedin Sedin Hansen
Baertschi  Horvat Burrows
Shinkaruk Vey Etem
Dorsett Sutter Virtanen
(McCann)

Edler - Tanev
Hutton - Sbisa
Pedan - Biega/Bartkowski

Just a thought. 

Rodin certainly could help us right now, but isn't he done for the season with an injury?

[TheGuardian_]

18 hours ago, Yotes said:

to the OP, pretty harsh on Etem for a guy who scored the only goal for the team last night. He is fast, similar to hansen in speed. He is newly acquired and wasn't brought in to be a top 6 scoring forward with an immediate impact, looks at his resume this isnt a bonafide top 6 or top 9 player.

I think he has done a pretty good job overall since coming here, and for what we gave up can we really complain? Lets see how be progresses the rest of the way and what he can do next year.

Okay, Benning is the scouting guru, the team traded Lack because they value picks so high, Etem, by the evaluation is bottom six and the team traded a 2nd round, highly valued pick for a guy that could be replaced by any number of farm hands the team already had. No this is just a deal to fill a roster spot and try to get Vey a guy to play with, someone he had success with before. As far as his vaunted speed, when he starts beating dmen to the puck or even better driving around them, but right now he is not as fast as Dorsett.

 

[TheGuardian_]

36 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I think that Benning is more of a developer than a drafter.

Call it arrogance but he thinks that he can draft players with the God given skills that he wants, speed, tenacity, good shot and the right kind of character at age 17 and if he has them for up to 8 years by the time they hit their prime, he can turn them into good players.

Let's look at his development record with the Canucks (it's only 2 years)

Horvat, his one shortcoming was speed, he's been coached up on that, no longer an issue

Vey, looked like a wash out in April and again in October, not so much now.  He's resurrecting the game that made him effective in junior and in the AHL which is strong down low and good distribution.  I'm not saying he's "strong" but he's all over the puck below the hash marks.

Baertschi, found his confidence, good defensive play, he's a smaller player and takes a good lick every now and then but comes back and still plays his game.  A keeper.

Gaunce, speed no longer an issue

Zalewski, where did this guy come from?  A year ago he looked like a wash out, now he's the hottest thing in Utica and has a very good shot at making the Canucks next year.

Others (and all of the above) are works in progress.

The trick moving forward is keeping Travis Green in the system.  I give him a lot of credit but I also don't forget who is in charge.  That is Jim Benning.

Edit:  Oops, forgot Markstrom

Undrafted, Michael Zalewski, signed by Gillis one month before he was fired, cut loose by Benning & co. after one year, 6 mos later re-signed by Benning & co.

 Travis Green, hired by Gillis,

Horvat, drafted by.....speed? At the end of last season/playoffs he was doing what he is doing now, without benefit of extra practice, even at the beginning of this year he didn't show the speed he does now, maybe it is just "getting his skating legs".

Guance, converted from center to winger, hence the speed issue, it was more of a "think, then do" rather than instant recognition of role.

Vey, is he better than Shinkaruk? Shinkaruk didn't cost the team an additional 2nd pick.

Markstrom, didn't look like a good deal at the time, but Gillis said he was going to have him coached.

[MickVega]

I think everyone knew going into this season that the Canucks were not a Cup contending team. But that doesn't mean you instantly start dumping all your vets to play youth. The examples of Edm, Fla, NYI, and CBJ are all valid, you can't just draft high, run with rooks, and expect to win. Sure a couple times those teams have made the playoffs, a couple may this year even, but what is their combined success rate over the last decade?

Now that doesn't mean you can't sell at the deadline if a good deal is available but let's recognize the value of veterans on the team.  Just because you are playing in the NHL at 18 doesn't mean you know everything.  How many teenagers still are playing at the same level in March that they were in October?  Not many.  Embracing the grind and learning how to deal with it come a lot quicker when you have quality leadership to do it.  Vancouver has that right now.  The players know they aren't going for a Cup this year.  They are well aware of team's transitions and where they are in theirs.  

I like the mix of vets and rooks in the lineup this year.  It shows management is looking ahead but not doing it recklessly.  I think Van has made a turn around quite quickly and we'll see the results in the couple years.  So let's enjoy the final years of 2011 core while they ride into the sunset as we learn to love the new core.  

Sorry, the OP's title had "ramblings" in it so I figured I'd join  

 

 

 

 

[Longtime Fan]

2 minutes ago, MickVega said:

I think everyone knew going into this season that the Canucks were not a Cup contending team. But that doesn't mean you instantly start dumping all your vets to play youth. The examples of Edm, Fla, NYI, and CBJ are all valid, you can't just draft high, run with rooks, and expect to win. Sure a couple times those teams have made the playoffs, a couple may this year even, but what is their combined success rate over the last decade?

Now that doesn't mean you can't sell at the deadline if a good deal is available but let's recognize the value of veterans on the team.  Just because you are playing in the NHL at 18 doesn't mean you know everything.  How many teenagers still are playing at the same level in March that they were in October?  Not many.  Embracing the grind and learning how to deal with it come a lot quicker when you have quality leadership to do it.  Vancouver has that right now.  The players know they aren't going for a Cup this year.  They are well aware of team's transitions and where they are in theirs.  

I like the mix of vets and rooks in the lineup this year.  It shows management is looking ahead but not doing it recklessly.  I think Van has made a turn around quite quickly and we'll see the results in the couple years.  So let's enjoy the final years of 2011 core while they ride into the sunset as we learn to love the new core.  

Sorry, the OP's title had "ramblings" in it so I figured I'd join  

 

 

 

 

I pretty well agree with your post. You need vets. to help the young guys learn how to play in the NHL.  McCann and Virtanen were kept on the team, IMO, as management was of the opinion they would learn more staying with the Canucks than going back to Jr.  I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them spend some time in the AHL (Utica) next year.  There they can learn the pro game, get more ice time and mature both as players and men.  I would say that the team will have up to 5 or 6 different players on the Roster at the start of next season than are currently here.

 

[Curmudgeon]

23 hours ago, YEGCanuck said:

When Willie goes I hope Travis Green is given serious consideration for Head Coach.

Yes, and maybe sooner rather than later. I really think that Willie is an interim coach in the sense that rebuilding teams often seem to go through two or three coaches while a team is getting more competitive. Then ownership/management decides that they need a new guy to get the team to the next level.

(Examples of Cup Winners: Joel Quenneville replacing Denis Savard, Dan Bylsma replacing Michel Therrien, Darryl Sutter replacing Terry Murray/John Stevens, Peter Laviolette replacing Paul Maurice. Examples of Cup Final Losers: Jon Cooper replacing Guy Boucher, Alain Vigneault replacing John Tortorella, Peter DeBoer replacing Jacques Lemaire, Peter Laviolette replacing John Stevens.)

It seems to me that if a coach doesn't win the Cup within three years of getting the job, the odds of him winning are severely reduced. I'm no stats guru, but I doubt Willie will be around top take this team to the next level.

[Curmudgeon]

2 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Double post

 

[luckylager]

4 hours ago, hlinkas wrister said:

 

Well done lads, always a pleasure to see a little intellect sprinkled amongst the tripe.

Much appreciated kind sir 

but I'm a mere nuckfool

just followed abroad's lead to tease the monotony

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

I call this bad assement by Management. Decision should have been after the ugly showing against Calgary. A team to perform in that fashion is UNACCEPTABLE! but management didn't show they had the guts to endure a risky move, eg trading Vrbata at the draft when his stock was high! Instead, they chose to play it out, now you will get a weaker return on Vrbata. Furthermore, managed to resign a -5 Weber in playoffs, I don't get how Benning didn't see his play in the series, that should of meritted his departure but instead they chose to sign him. And somehow Bartwoksi was suppose to help our team? The guy has 1 goal in how many games? Just poor bonehead moves by management and yes I do question there approach! Bottom line, decision was suppose to be made at the end of last years playoffs, but wasn't and now they have a chance to redeem themselves but lets see what they do.

[Junkyard Dog]

2 minutes ago, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

I call this bad assement by Management. Decision should have been after the ugly showing against Calgary. A team to perform in that fashion is UNACCEPTABLE! but management didn't show they had the guts to endure a risky move, eg trading Vrbata at the draft when his stock was high! Instead, they chose to play it out, now you will get a weaker return on Vrbata. Furthermore, managed to resign a -5 Weber in playoffs, I don't get how Benning didn't see his play in the series, that should of meritted his departure but instead they chose to sign him. And somehow Bartwoksi was suppose to help our team? The guy has 1 goal in how many games? Just poor bonehead moves by management and yes I do question there approach! Bottom line, decision was suppose to be made at the end of last years playoffs, but wasn't and now they have a chance to redeem themselves but lets see what they do.

You're criticizing Benning after the moves. Hindsight isn't a credible way of doing so. It also makes you look stupid, no offense.

We wanted to develop youth in a winning environment.

Injuries happened but more severely so did the disappointing play of the veterans. That is not Benning's fault. That is the veterans. In Benning's first year they carried this team but this year they've helped drag it down where we are now and that CANNOT happen with this much inexperience.

 If any GM could read the future I am sure they would go about things differently.

[TheGuardian_]

I can understand some of Benning's moves or non moves with Miller and Vrbata there were probably promises made to get them to sign here, like Miller would be number one and not traded and Vrbata would play with the twins even Willie may have got some leeway with assurances of term and players. Maybe.

After getting those other players to revoke their no trade clauses Vancouver's reputation might have been tarnished a bit with regards to a stable (honorable) place to play, especially with the media on the side of management helping such things along.

[Junkyard Dog]

Desi a good way to use Hindsight would be how Benning could of traded Matthias last deadline but didn't.

If he doesn't learn from the things he could of done differently that make sense then everybody should bash him.

But nobody could predict the veterans under performing so much  this season, they could predict that moving Matthias would of been better than losing him for nothing. 

At least make sense with hindsight.

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

11 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

You're criticizing Benning after the moves. Hindsight isn't a credible way of doing so. It also makes you look stupid, no offense.

We wanted to develop youth in a winning environment.

Injuries happened but more severely so did the disappointing play of the veterans. That is not Benning's fault. That is the veterans. In Benning's first year they carried this team but this year they've helped drag it down where we are now and that CANNOT happen with this much inexperience.

 If any GM could read the future I am sure they would go about things differently.

Okay, lets do something. Scenerio- after the disappointing effort against the Flames, the management sat at the table and said what? "Oh the boys are fine, we will just add Sutter and Bartwoksi. and another said? Oh Horvat will get 25 goals next year? ? Oh lets resign Weber. We will trade Kasssian tooo for Prust?" lol seriously how did the management not see this coming?

for gods sake! DID they not see a freaking plug like Ferlund drive this team bonkers in the playoffs? That same Ferlund that Getzlaf hit once and stopped him, and the Ducks succesfully neutralized. Heck Ferlund only plays against the Canucks' it seems. Since there defence has huge problems controlling forechecks, so benning goes out and signs Weber and Bart, and then comes on the stage and tells the fans we will have a 100 point season next year. If these are not misunderstanding your teams potential then what is it? A gm should always have a fair assessment of his team, its his job and not over-rate his product like he did.

In short he didn't build a 100 point contender to begin with!

[TheGuardian_]

5 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Desi a good way to use Hindsight would be how Benning could of traded Matthias last deadline but didn't.

If he doesn't learn from the things he could of done differently that make sense then everybody should bash him.

But nobody could predict the veterans under performing so much  this season, they could predict that moving Matthias would of been better than losing him for nothing. 

At least make sense with hindsight.

I could, it is easy, their age, rarely to players get better once near the end of their career, each year there is usually a decline, they all aren't Jagr or the Sedins.

[TheGuardian_]

23 minutes ago, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

Okay, lets do something. Scenerio- after the disappointing effort against the Flames, the management sat at the table and said what? "Oh the boys are fine, we will just add Sutter and Bartwoksi. and another said? Oh Horvat will get 25 goals next year? ? Oh lets resign Weber. We will trade Kasssian tooo for Prust?" lol seriously how did the management not see this coming?

for gods sake! DID they not see a freaking plug like Ferlund drive this team bonkers in the playoffs? That same Ferlund that Getzlaf hit once and stopped him, and the Ducks succesfully neutralized. Heck Ferlund only plays against the Canucks' it seems. Since there defence has huge problems controlling forechecks, so benning goes out and signs Weber and Bart, and then comes on the stage and tells the fans we will have a 100 point season next year. If these are not misunderstanding your teams potential then what is it? A gm should always have a fair assessment of his team, its his job and not over-rate his product like he did.

In short he didn't build a 100 point contender to begin with!

Perhaps they discerned Gillis's plan a year late?

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

Okay, lets do something. Scenerio- after the disappointing effort against the Flames, the management sat at the table and said what? "Oh the boys are fine, we will just add Sutter and Bartwoksi. and another said? Oh Horvat will get 25 goals next year? ? Oh lets resign Weber. We will trade Kasssian tooo for Prust?" lol seriously how did the management not see this coming?

for gods sake! DID they not see a freaking plug like Ferlund drive this team bonkers in the playoffs? That same Ferlund that Getzlaf hit once and stopped him, and the Ducks succesfully neutralized. Heck Ferlund only plays against the Canucks' it seems. Since there defence has huge problems controlling forechecks, so benning goes out and signs Weber and Bart, and then comes on the stage and tells the fans we will have a 100 point season next year. If these are not misunderstanding your teams potential then what is it? A gm should always have a fair assessment of his team, its his job and not over-rated his product like he did.

look I will forgive him if he moves the UFAs. 

Considering they can't see the future of course they couldn't see these things coming

Vrbata went from a scoring machine to a fringe scorer getting carried by Horvat/Baertschi.

Weber went from scoring 11 goals to scoring none.

Higgins, Dorsett and Burrows took a steps back this year.

Prust wasn't the same after his injury.

We got hit with the injury bug maybe worse than we did in 13/14

We had one rookie last season. We have 3 this year with more inexperience on top of that.

I don't remember him coming out and saying we would have a 100 point season. The goal was to develop players in a winning environment, we can't do that this year because of our veterans.

Benning tried to get faster on the transition to counter the fore check and we did at the start of the year but the disappointing play of the veterans is the main reason why we are in the position we are in now on top of the injuries we have faced.

GM's can't read the future. They can make an assessment but they can't predict things 100%. You're stating it like they should be able to..

[Junkyard Dog]

11 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I could, it is easy, their age, rarely to players get better once near the end of their career, each year there is usually a decline, they all aren't Jagr or the Sedins.

Anyone can come out and say that now in hindsight of what has happened.

If that's not the case then good for you, at the time it wasn't a good prediction hence why we never we went that direction.

[Crabcakes]

4 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Undrafted, Michael Zalewski, signed by Gillis one month before he was fired, cut loose by Benning & co. after one year, 6 mos later re-signed by Benning & co.

 Travis Green, hired by Gillis,

Horvat, drafted by.....speed? At the end of last season/playoffs he was doing what he is doing now, without benefit of extra practice, even at the beginning of this year he didn't show the speed he does now, maybe it is just "getting his skating legs".

Guance, converted from center to winger, hence the speed issue, it was more of a "think, then do" rather than instant recognition of role.

Vey, is he better than Shinkaruk? Shinkaruk didn't cost the team an additional 2nd pick.

Markstrom, didn't look like a good deal at the time, but Gillis said he was going to have him coached.

I'm talking about developing.  Not drafting. 

I believe all of the above have made great strides since Benning has taken over that's why I used them as examples.

Vey v Shinkaruk?  I didn't make any comparison.  Shink is coming along just fine obviously.  He's the leading scorer in Utica.