Please stop rushing players development on this team!

[clam linguine]

1 minute ago, yoshiyoshi said:

if the AHL vets wanted the spots, they should have played better at training camp

I was in favour of keeping McCann and Virtanen ...and it was a mistake.  The idea of guys deserving this or that has merit but ultimately I want what is best for the team long term.  The kids may have outplayed the AHL guys, but they outplayed almost everyone on our roster in the pre season...didn't they. 

 

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

On 09/05/2016 at 7:38 PM, Gollumpus said:

So, the obvious question is: What if Edler doesn't want to be traded?

 

                            regards,  G.

this is were management has to come in. I'm sick and tired of hearing Edler doesn't want to be traded. The reality is management needs to go to him and tell him, look we are heading a different direction and sadly your not part of our plan. It's a business and Aquaman hired these guys to take care of decisions like this. 

 

tell him to give the list, its possible to trade guys when you want to, I don't buy the Edler will stay if management pretty much tells him straight up, time to leave. 

 

the critics will say well it will make management look bad, no I disagree it will show some accountability from management, players will actually want to come to a team that has a direction. It will show players that this team is not here to joke around, they are serious about contending in the future, and moving Edler will solidify the prospect pool. Imagine the sweet value he can get.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, clam linguine said:

I was in favour of keeping McCann and Virtanen ...and it was a mistake.  The idea of guys deserving this or that has merit but ultimately I want what is best for the team long term.  The kids may have outplayed the AHL guys, but they outplayed almost everyone on our roster in the pre season...didn't they. 

 

But that's how it works.  They earned their way onto the roster.  That is the metric - when they force their way into the lineup, you make space for them.  

WD and JB knew they'd fade through the season - knew they'd have their ups and downs - but I think a lot of people are underestimating the progress that they made regardless - all the things they learned day in day out through an NHL season - and moreover the fact that they came into training camp and earned those spots is important to keep in mind.  Ignoring that and sending them back to junior regardless, imo would have done more damage and limited their progress and development moreso than stepping up to the NHL and getting an everyday, reality-based understanding of how much work they have to do.  I don't second-guess the move at all - nor am I going to hindsight it.  I think it was the right decision at the time, and thus it remains the right decision.

[clam linguine]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

But that's how it works.  They earned their way onto the roster.  That is the metric - when they force their way into the lineup, you make space for them.  

WD and JB knew they'd fade through the season - knew they'd have their ups and downs - but I think a lot of people are underestimating the progress that they made regardless - all the things they learned day in day out through an NHL season - and moreover the fact that they came into training camp and earned those spots is important to keep in mind.  Ignoring that and sending them back to junior regardless, imo would have done more damage and limited their progress and development moreso than stepping up to the NHL and getting an everyday, reality-based understanding of how much work they have to do.  I don't second-guess the move at all - nor am I going to hindsight it.  I think it was the right decision at the time, and thus it remains the right decision.

I do remember many circumstances where a young player has been sent back to junior despite outperforming, so it doesn't always work that way. Management can choose to look at a bigger picture.  But, maybe Mac and Virt were better off with the big team, we will never know for sure.   I am sure that it is not idiotic to think otherwise.

[chickenman92]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

I agree, but the player should be NHL ready, don't you think?  Some teams keep the injured players completely away from the team until they are ready to play, so the coach doesn't need to manage them.  Shouldn't the same go for young players - they are either ready for NHL play (that's every game) or they aren't on the team?  

For sure, but everyone's opinion on being NHL can be debatable. 

 

In my opinion, young players are NHL ready when they're good enough to be one of the top 5 D on a team or a top-9 forward. 

 

I think McCann earned a spot in camp and was good enough throughout the year to play in Vancouver's top-9. I would have liked to see him play more throughout the year.

 

Virtanen I would have sent back. I don't think he consistent enough to warrant a top-9 spot. I think playing 20 min a night and getting some PK & first unit PP reps would have helped him learn how to play better without the puck. 

 

And I know some will disagree, but Virtanen couldn't score in the NHL, couldn't score in the AHL and was bad at the WJHC. That to me is enough evidence that he needed another year in the WHL. 

[chickenman92]

31 minutes ago, clam linguine said:

I do remember many circumstances where a young player has been sent back to junior despite outperforming, so it doesn't always work that way. Management can choose to look at a bigger picture.  But, maybe Mac and Virt were better off with the big team, we will never know for sure.   I am sure that it is not idiotic to think otherwise.

Ray Ferraro had a great quote when talking about rushing young players, "In all my years, I've never seen a player's career ruined by being sent back to junior for another season...I have seen numerous player's careers derailed by being thrust into the lineup before they're ready". 

[Diamond NHL]

I like desi, but you guys are treating him like you treated tiger. I feel like CDC hates brown people or something 

[oldnews]

18 minutes ago, clam linguine said:

Management can choose to look at a bigger picture.  But, maybe Mac and Virt were better off with the big team, we will never know for sure.   I am sure that it is not idiotic to think otherwise.

It's not idiotic to think either way.  What is amusing is the volume of hindsighting of these decisions - and yet, if you go back to the beginning of the season, the viewpoint around here was downright comical - and the polar opposite of the current second-guessing.

The assumption was that none of the young players were going to get an opportunity - even Hutton was doubtful in the minds of the young protesting CDCers, extremely vocal that the kids finally should get a chance, but probably wouldn't.  Well, they got that and then some.  Keeping in mind the volume of injuries, there is absolutely no point in second guessing these decisions.  Had this team been remotely healthy, they'd have been able to surround these young players with more veteran support.  As it turned out, they were surrounded by other rookies.  So be it.  That was the reality - but the hindsighting...is just that - and it's a waste of time wadr.   Go back and read the threads at the season's start.  Virtually no bloody one wanted to see these young guys back in junior - that fact should be enough for people to clam up.

 

 

[By sea and land]

Please rush out and sign Stamkos Immediately on July 1.

[clam linguine]

10 minutes ago, oldnews said:

It's not idiotic to think either way.  What is amusing is the volume of hindsighting of these decisions - and yet, if you go back to the beginning of the season, the viewpoint around here was downright comical - and the polar opposite of the current second-guessing.

The assumption was that none of the young players were going to get an opportunity - even Hutton was doubtful in the minds of the young protesting CDCers, extremely vocal that the kids finally should get a chance, but probably wouldn't.  Well, they got that and then some.  Keeping in mind the volume of injuries, there is absolutely no point in second guessing these decisions.  Had this team been remotely healthy, they'd have been able to surround these young players with more veteran support.  As it turned out, they were surrounded by other rookies.  So be it.  That was the reality - but the hindsighting...is just that - and it's a waste of time wadr.   Go back and read the threads at the season's start.  Virtually no bloody one wanted to see these young guys back in junior - that fact should be enough for people to clam up.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with hindsight, it is how we learn.  When circumstances change, I change.  What do you do?  I wanted them in the NHL.  I look back and conclude, I was probably wrong (I agree with the OP). I am not a fan of being called an idiot by a water carrier because of it.

[oldnews]

52 minutes ago, clam linguine said:

There is nothing wrong with hindsight, it is how we learn.  When circumstances change, I change.  What do you do?  I wanted them in the NHL.  I look back and conclude, I was probably wrong (I agree with the OP). I am not a fan of being called an idiot by a water carrier because of it.

Not going to argue with learning from reflection - of course, that is one of the fundamentals.  Hindsighting however imo is something else - it's a revision of what a person actually thought at the time without the intellectual honesty - with the benefit of information no one had at that point. It tends to be a roadblock to learning as opposed to a tool  / an ego-defense / denial that one can be wrong and may very well have been.  It's a pretense to know and have known better when that wasn't necessarily the case - usually just an attempt to one-up a past decision.

"Why would I have wanted Horvat to go back to junior, he was the Canucks best player in the playoffs?"

[Oh, I did want him to go back to junior, I guess I was wrong.]  

"No, I wasn't wrong, that wasn't 'last year."

[Oh, it was last year.] 

Ummm, please stop rushing the players anyway.

[Oh, what I should say is please stop rushing the 'wrong' players, but please give the 'right' players a chance.  Why would we want to send the 'right' players back?]

    

Horvat and Hutton:  WD and JB +2,  desi -1 for Horvat, 0 for Hutton.

McCann - debatable 0s for both (although I'd argue that in the case of debatable, and where circumstances changed - ie McCann earned his roster spot quite clearly in camp and preseason, but then, due primarily to injuries, was in slightly over his head - that the right decision was made, based upon the information at the time, particularly when in reflection it's not necessarily definitive one way or the other ).

Virtanen +1 for WD and JB.

WD/JB +3, desi -1.

Hence the need for this thread.

 

Where McCann is concerned, an additional factor imo is both the commitment Benning made - and keeping his word.

What Benning said is that if young players earn a spot, they will get that spot and he will make space for them.  Well, McCann clearly earned that spot in camp and preseason- and Benning kept his word.  Moreover, through 9 games, McCann was lighting it up - with 5 goals.   No brainer - keep the young man up.  

 

 That is important on a number of levels - it is important to the young players to see that there is both integrity and fairness where these decisions are concerned, and that no one is gifted a spot - those are determined by merit.   It's also important when transitioning to create the best environment for the incentive and the success of young players.   The Canucks had both the veteran leadership and depth to accomplish this, with support on and off the ice for these young players.  In fairness to Benning, it could not realistically be predicted that he'd lose so many veterans to injuries.  However, if McCann and Virtanen had been sent back to junior, and then the team ran into countless injuries (as they did) and they could not be recalled / did not have the opportunity to play and develop these guys at the NHL level - you would never have heard the end of it - after having shown so well in camp and preseason - one can just imagine the criticism management would have faced for not giving them the opportunity they did.  Of course, everyone knows better in hindsight.    But are we honestly reflecting and learning anything - or pretending to know and have known better?

 

[Baggins]

6 hours ago, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

this is were management has to come in. I'm sick and tired of hearing Edler doesn't want to be traded. The reality is management needs to go to him and tell him, look we are heading a different direction and sadly your not part of our plan. It's a business and Aquaman hired these guys to take care of decisions like this. 

 

tell him to give the list, its possible to trade guys when you want to, I don't buy the Edler will stay if management pretty much tells him straight up, time to leave. 

 

the critics will say well it will make management look bad, no I disagree it will show some accountability from management, players will actually want to come to a team that has a direction. It will show players that this team is not here to joke around, they are serious about contending in the future, and moving Edler will solidify the prospect pool. Imagine the sweet value he can get.

Players have declined to waive their ntc in the past. Edler has already said he won't waive his ntc. That doesn't mean he may not change his mind, but you can't exactly force a player to waive. How did a list of three teams work out for moving Hamhuis? The Caps wanted him. Hamhuis said nope. How about the teams Vrbata gave? Not an offer from any of them because he purposely gave a list that wouldn't be interested. You give a player the ntc and your hands are tied. If Edler doesn't want to move that's his right.

[wren223]

McCann and Virtanean both learned a lot being in the NHL last year. Sending McCann back to junior would have been pointless. He stumbled down the stretch but I believe this was more because he wasn't conditioned or used to playing so much for so long at such a high level. Virtanean played very well later in the season and seemed to start to put things together. I do agree though that Virtanean should start in Utica and just be allowed to develop that offensive skill and destroy and own that league. No need to rush him or McCann and let them dominate down in Utica and come up stronger and wiser.

 

McCann needs to get stronger and increase his stamina, he has the drive and fire.

 

Virtanean needs to get stronger too, increase his offensive skills, he has the fire and anger. We've lamented how no one likes getting out there and bang and mess fools up. Virtanean brings the body. So let him develop.

 

So, I'm with desi in not rushing players but at the same time those guys needed to be in Van last season. The learned how to play a higher level, learned the culture, learned the hardships, and we under full control of their diet, exercise and conditioning. It was the first step into being a pro.

[ice orca]

8 hours ago, Diamond NHL said:

I like desi, but you guys are treating him like you treated tiger. I feel like CDC hates brown people or something 

I think you are looking at this completely wrong. I can't remember anybody who disagrees with Desi has ever brought his race or color into his posts. Lots of posters on here get treated worse than Desi and probably most of them are not brown. I like most of his topics for the comedy alone, he is like a master angler catching the same fish over and over and releasing them to do it again and again.

[hlinkas wrister]

8 hours ago, Diamond NHL said:

I like desi, but you guys are treating him like you treated tiger. I feel like CDC hates brown people or something 

Firstly, how do you know Desi is a brown people ? Can you show me a single post where somebody has made an inference to race or color in reaction to a "Desi post", or for that matter, any post ? I already know the answer so don't bother looking- people around here would report that sh*t tout suite. Desi gets what he gets because he is a wind up merchant who is purposely looking for a reaction, not because he is green or brown or whatever else.  

[riffraff]

9 hours ago, Diamond NHL said:

I like desi, but you guys are treating him like you treated tiger. I feel like CDC hates brown people or something 

Yeah you got us.

[stawns]

10 hours ago, oldnews said:

But that's how it works.  They earned their way onto the roster.  That is the metric - when they force their way into the lineup, you make space for them.  

WD and JB knew they'd fade through the season - knew they'd have their ups and downs - but I think a lot of people are underestimating the progress that they made regardless - all the things they learned day in day out through an NHL season - and moreover the fact that they came into training camp and earned those spots is important to keep in mind.  Ignoring that and sending them back to junior regardless, imo would have done more damage and limited their progress and development moreso than stepping up to the NHL and getting an everyday, reality-based understanding of how much work they have to do.  I don't second-guess the move at all - nor am I going to hindsight it.  I think it was the right decision at the time, and thus it remains the right decision.

Agreed........I'd say they had the year that coaches and management figured they would have.  I had no issue with how either of them played and really enjoyed watching them all season........Virtanen especially.

[stawns]

9 hours ago, Diamond NHL said:

I like desi, but you guys are treating him like you treated tiger. I feel like CDC hates brown people or something 

Seriously?  He's a total buffoon.

[higgyfan]

If they were going to send them back to Jrs, the 39th game (ELC) cutoff would have been the time.  I think that would have be ok for McCaan, but disasterous for Virt.  He had just returned from the WJC and was at an all-time low.  Returning him to Jrs would have surely be considered a 'failure' by others as well as himself.

 

It seems that the two players are opposites of each other: one is physically ready, but mentally immature; while the other is physically undeveloped, but very mature mentally.

 

The management decided to keep them with the team and create a training environment somewhat like the AHL for them.  Other than losing a year of ELC, I can't see that this tactic will have a negative effect on either of them.  

 

In hindsight, I believe that returning Virt to Jrs would have been a mistake.  His obvious immaturity and lack of consistency would have been tollerated for another year, along with any other bad habits.  I think the Canucks realized that they needed to keep him close at hand and develop a complete program for him.  Being part of a team of men, is better for his mental growth than playing amongst a bunch of boys.

 

McCaan has proven that he will be a very good NHL player and has a clear picture of what he needs to do to get there.  I suspect he will be ready (or close to it) by puck drop, but may play in Utica for an adjustment period (on the W just like Gaunce).

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

If they were going to send them back to Jrs, the 39th game (ELC) cutoff would have been the time.  I think that would have be ok for McCaan, but disasterous for Virt.  He had just returned from the WJC and was at an all-time low.  Returning him to Jrs would have surely be considered a 'failure' by others as well as himself.

 

It seems that the two players are opposites of each other: one is physically ready, but mentally immature; while the other is physically undeveloped, but very mature mentally.

 

The management decided to keep them with the team and create a training environment somewhat like the AHL for them.  Other than losing a year of ELC, I can't see that this tactic will have a negative effect on either of them.  

 

In hindsight, I believe that returning Virt to Jrs would have been a mistake.  His obvious immaturity and lack of consistency would have been tollerated for another year, along with any other bad habits.  I think the Canucks realized that they needed to keep him close at hand and develop a complete program for him.  Being part of a team of men, is better for his mental growth than playing amongst a bunch of boys.

 

McCaan has proven that he will be a very good NHL player and has a clear picture of what he needs to do to get there.  I suspect he will be ready (or close to it) by puck drop, but may play in Utica for an adjustment period (on the W just like Gaunce).

How do you figure virtanen is mentally immature?  He came back from the wjrs, worked his butt off and was one of the better fwds in the 2nd half of the season.  I think he's pretty strong, mentally........but I think that's one of those fallacies around him.....kind of like he hasn't got great hockey iq, or he's not that skilled.