How Will You Remember Dan Cloutier

[bloodycanuckleheads]

Everyone focuses on the center-ice goal - and completely forgets that Cloutier was utterly abysmal long before that goal.  I can remember two entire playoffs of screaming at the television for the coach to pull his ass, because you could see, right from puck-drop that he wasn't going to be stopping anything that night.  Then, he'd let in an easy goal - and you'd yell at the tv some more.  Then another.  And another.  And, finally, we'd pull him.  But, by then, it would be way too late. 

 

He had no business stepping foot on the ice during the playoffs.  Worst.  Goalie.  Ever.  The best chances we've ever had for a Cup, and Cloutier single-handedly threw them right into the trash.

[Kevin Biestra]

11 hours ago, 6string said:

Would Dan even be in the bottom half of the top 10 goalies of all time in Vancouver?

I guess I would have to sneak him into the top 10 just for his regular season win total.

 

Luongo, McLean, Brodeur, Gary Smith all blow him out of the water.

 

Then...Schneider, Miller, Hanlon.  Charlie Hodge...

 

Yeah, I can't quite push him out of the top ten, as much as I would kind of like to for his playoff performances...

[Kevin Biestra]

3 hours ago, tas said:

as probably the 4th best goalie in team history. 

 

luongo

mclean

brodeur

cloutier

miller

schneider

 

both schneider and miller were undoubtedly more talented, but cloutier was more impactful. 

Oh he definitely made an impact.

[Gnarcore]

I was in the building for that Lidstrom shot and when he gave up the puck in game 6 to Hull to start off the game.  I will remember him as the reason we lost that series and one tough SOB. 

[-DLC-]

Feisty and fiery.  A super nice guy away from the rink (met him at a Lions game...he was there with Trevor).

 

As a goaltender?  Sometimes having that edge and feistiness can be a distraction.  Goaltenders have to be intensely focused and, if you're giving a guy a whack in the shins, it can pull you away from that.  Perhaps he needed a bit of training in reeling in the emotion and just being solid.

 

I remember he had some great games, but consistency is required.  Loved that he played with a snarl though.

 

Overall, loved the guy.  Am glad he's still involved because we do want some of that emotion infused in.

[tas]

31 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Oh he definitely made an impact.

yes, and a positive one at that. 

[smithers joe]

a fellow metis. there have been several who have played in the nhl. 

[Lancaster]

Retroactively looking back..... Cloutier had minimal defensive support. 

Naslund and Bertuzzi are very weak defensively.  Henrik and Daniel are also very weak defensively.  Jovanovski was a good offensive defenseman, but not great on the defensive side of things.  Bryan Allen is a good 5/6th.  Salo was still only a 5/6th at the time.  

While Morrison, Linden, Chubarov, Ohlund, etc. were pretty good defensively.... the run & gun philosophy stops working when you stop scoring.  

 

He never really had the chance.  Even if the Canucks had Patrick Roy, Dominic Hasek or even Ken Dryden.... the team just simply wasn't designed for playoff hockey.  

It's always so stupidly hilarious to hear bashers acclaim that somehow having a system where they pretty much only focus on offense should somehow make a goalie perform better, lol.  

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

Retroactively looking back..... Cloutier had minimal defensive support. 

Naslund and Bertuzzi are very weak defensively.  Henrik and Daniel are also very weak defensively.  Jovanovski was a good offensive defenseman, but not great on the defensive side of things.  Bryan Allen is a good 5/6th.  Salo was still only a 5/6th at the time.  

While Morrison, Linden, Chubarov, Ohlund, etc. were pretty good defensively.... the run & gun philosophy stops working when you stop scoring.  

 

He never really had the chance.  Even if the Canucks had Patrick Roy, Dominic Hasek or even Ken Dryden.... the team just simply wasn't designed for playoff hockey.  

It's always so stupidly hilarious to hear bashers acclaim that somehow having a system where they pretty much only focus on offense should somehow make a goalie perform better, lol.  

Add a Roy, Hasek or Dryden caliber netminder and the West Coast Express teams would have won a Cup in my opinion, quite possibly two.

 

Instead, we never got past the second round and only got TO the second round once.

 

Fuhr and Barrasso won a good number of Cups with / for offense-first teams.

[GB5]

Cloutier was an excellent goalie who often either wore down or was injured at the end of the season which played a role in the teams he played on struggling in the playoffs.

[John McClane]

 

[Lancaster]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Add a Roy, Hasek or Dryden caliber netminder and the West Coast Express teams would have won a Cup in my opinion, quite possibly two.

 

Instead, we never got past the second round and only got TO the second round once.

 

Fuhr and Barrasso won a good number of Cups with / for offense-first teams.

Not with the defense core the Canucks had.  

 

Fuhr had the 80's dynasty Oilers.  They probably could have pulled the goalie for 6 on 5 the entire game and probably still win.  Defense not the best, but they had elite offensive talent throughout the roster that score consistently.  Kurri, Messier, Coffey, MacTavish, Lowe and some little guy named Wayne Gretzky. 

Barrasso had a very strong Penguins team as well... with generational offensive stars and strong defensemans too.  Their blueline had Paul Coffey, Ulf Samuelsson and Larry Murphy.  

 

The Canucks had 1 elite scoring line that were very weak defensively.  A second line that with the Sedins that posted up 3rd line offensive numbers and not that strong defensively too.  Their 3rd line was decent enough.  A random 4th line.  

For defense, either than Ohlund and Jovo.... who else were elite?  Sopel... no.  Barron... nope.  Malik... decent, but nope.  Allen... he's bottom pairing.  Salo... he wasn't good at that point.  Lachance....?

The Canucks were a flaw teamed that played over their head, relying on the WCE and Cloutier stealing games.  Take a look at the rosters of Colorado, the Blues, Red Wings, Devils, Dallas Stars, etc.... those teams were stacked from top to bottom.

 

[Kevin Biestra]

29 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

Not with the defense core the Canucks had.  

 

Fuhr had the 80's dynasty Oilers.  They probably could have pulled the goalie for 6 on 5 the entire game and probably still win.  Defense not the best, but they had elite offensive talent throughout the roster that score consistently.  Kurri, Messier, Coffey, MacTavish, Lowe and some little guy named Wayne Gretzky. 

Barrasso had a very strong Penguins team as well... with generational offensive stars and strong defensemans too.  Their blueline had Paul Coffey, Ulf Samuelsson and Larry Murphy.  

 

The Canucks had 1 elite scoring line that were very weak defensively.  A second line that with the Sedins that posted up 3rd line offensive numbers and not that strong defensively too.  Their 3rd line was decent enough.  A random 4th line.  

For defense, either than Ohlund and Jovo.... who else were elite?  Sopel... no.  Barron... nope.  Malik... decent, but nope.  Allen... he's bottom pairing.  Salo... he wasn't good at that point.  Lachance....?

The Canucks were a flaw teamed that played over their head, relying on the WCE and Cloutier stealing games.  Take a look at the rosters of Colorado, the Blues, Red Wings, Devils, Dallas Stars, etc.... those teams were stacked from top to bottom.

 

Sopel, Malik, Baron and Allen is a perfectly fine bottom four D on any team.  You could replace the bottom four D with them on the Oilers or Penguins teams and I don't think any championships would have been lost.

 

I'm not out to bash Cloutier here, but he shouldn't be considered anywhere near on par with (or an adequate replacement for) Tom Barrasso or Grant Fuhr.

 

Barrasso won the Vezina Trophy with the Buffalo Sabres before he joined Pittsburgh.  Cloutier, even in they heyday of his best regular seasons, never received even one third place vote for the Vezina.

 

I like Dan Cloutier.  I think he's a good guy, was a good teammate and seems to be a good goalie coach.  I think he was "an NHL caliber goalie."  But I also think that heaping any greater praise on his playing days than that is just going out of one's way to be nice.

[RWMc1]

Everyone who has played hockey long enough has made a bonehead play. Not only is how you respond important, but how your team-mates respond is also important. The body language of our leaders after that goal was very accusatory and not very supportive. Our vaunted WCE offense disappeared for long stretches and our depth was never enough to make up for that. (Very much like the Sedins scoring and our depth scoring this season.) Cloutier is the scapegoat for poor Playoff performances by the rest of the team; especially the leaders.

[Lancaster]

8 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Sopel, Malik, Baron and Allen is a perfectly fine bottom four D on any team.  You could replace the bottom four D with them on the Oilers or Penguins teams and I don't think any championships would have been lost.

Gretzky-Kurri and Lemieux-Jagr >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naslund-Bertuzzi.

Swap with any of those pairs on the top line and the Canucks would probably win the cup... regardless of whether or not Cloutier is in goal.  

 

In 2001... Colorado were actual contenders for the Cup (which they won).... the Canucks were the up-and-coming team.  You can't blame Cloutier for that loss as he only played in like 2 of those games.  Naslund didn't even play that series.

The Canucks were lucky to even win a game or two against the Red Wings in 2002 (which Detroit went on to win the Cup).  Sure, Lidstrom's goal looked terrible, but the Twins were completely manhandled by the Wings and the WCE couldn't score when they're shutdown by Selke winners Fedorov and Yzerman plus Mr. Norris Trophy himself Nicklas Lidstrom.  

For 2003.... re-watch the series against the Wild.  The team couldn't backcheck to save their lives.  Plus strange bounces from the backboards that forced the puck to the front of the net, etc.  Then there's Bertuzzi and his no-show for the series.  The Wild that year also knocked off the stacked Avalanche team in 7 games too.... so they were simply more determined than the Canucks were.  Cloutier wasn't great, but the rest of the team were even worse.  

[Kevin Biestra]

10 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

Gretzky-Kurri and Lemieux-Jagr >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naslund-Bertuzzi.

Swap with any of those pairs on the top line and the Canucks would probably win the cup... regardless of whether or not Cloutier is in goal.  

 

In 2001... Colorado were actual contenders for the Cup (which they won).... the Canucks were the up-and-coming team.  You can't blame Cloutier for that loss as he only played in like 2 of those games.  Naslund didn't even play that series.

The Canucks were lucky to even win a game or two against the Red Wings in 2002 (which Detroit went on to win the Cup).  Sure, Lidstrom's goal looked terrible, but the Twins were completely manhandled by the Wings and the WCE couldn't score when they're shutdown by Selke winners Fedorov and Yzerman plus Mr. Norris Trophy himself Nicklas Lidstrom.  

For 2003.... re-watch the series against the Wild.  The team couldn't backcheck to save their lives.  Plus strange bounces from the backboards that forced the puck to the front of the net, etc.  Then there's Bertuzzi and his no-show for the series.  The Wild that year also knocked off the stacked Avalanche team in 7 games too.... so they were simply more determined than the Canucks were.  Cloutier wasn't great, but the rest of the team were even worse.  

 

Canucks vs Wild Game Seven, 2003 Playoffs:

 

The Canucks who "couldn't backcheck to save their lives" allowed only 16 shots on goal in the entire game.  Cloutier let in four and stopped twelve.  (three goals on six total shots in the third period)

 

No-show Bertuzzi scored a game seven goal.

 

Like I said, I'm not out to trash Cloutier.  But I'm not going to pretend things played out other than how they did.

[Lancaster]

Just now, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Canucks vs Wild Game Seven, 2003 Playoffs:

 

The Canucks who "couldn't backcheck to save their lives" allowed only 16 shots on goal in the entire game.  Cloutier let in four and stopped twelve.

 

No-show Bertuzzi scored a game seven goal.

Re-watch the 3rd period.... the Canucks were like swiss cheese.  

Bertuzzi.... 1g, 1a in 7 games.  If he was a little bit more productive.... the series would have been finished in 5.  

 

 

Around half way through the video for game 7 highlights.  1 of the goals wasn't even Cloutier's fault.  The other 2 with turnovers and/or poor defensive coverage.  

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, Lancaster said:

Re-watch the 3rd period.... the Canucks were like swiss cheese.  

Bertuzzi.... 1g, 1a in 7 games.  If he was a little bit more productive.... the series would have been finished in 5.  

 

 

Around half way through the video for game 7 highlights.  1 of the goals wasn't even Cloutier's fault.  The other 2 with turnovers and/or poor defensive coverage.  

Cloutier allowed literally half of the six shots he faced in the final period of the series.  Goalies have a better record than that facing penalty shots.

[6string]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I guess I would have to sneak him into the top 10 just for his regular season win total.

 

Luongo, McLean, Brodeur, Gary Smith all blow him out of the water.

 

Then...Schneider, Miller, Hanlon.  Charlie Hodge...

 

Yeah, I can't quite push him out of the top ten, as much as I would kind of like to for his playoff performances...

I have :

Mclean

Luongo

Brodeur

Schneider

Miller

Hanlon

Smith

Cloutier

Maniago

Auld

 

[Kevin Biestra]

54 minutes ago, 6string said:

I have :

Mclean

Luongo

Brodeur

Schneider

Miller

Hanlon

Smith

Cloutier

Maniago

Auld

 

Solid list.  The only thing I might debate is underestimating Gary Smith.  His 1974-75 season was incredible.  They didn't release Vezina voting rankings back then, but he was third in voting for the post-season All-Star teams, so essentially a Vezina finalist (ahead of Ken Dryden, Billy Smith and Tony Esposito - 4th through 6th in voting).