Quinn Hughes | #43 | D

[BlastPast]

If Juolevi was able to establish himself this season it would have made at least approaching the idea of parting ways with Edler more realistic.  Now that is not going to be the case I think it makes it more difficult , at least long term.  As well as the team is playing the playoffs are still a long shot and I believe the market for Edler would be pretty strong so I'm sure they would like to move him if he would allow it. If he is as motivated to stay in Vancouver as it is reported and the team is keen to have him back there could be the possibility of re-signing on July 1.  My guess is the team wouldn't want to go longer than 2 years for expansion draft purposes but could potentially make him a generous (and deserved tbh) offer of something like 2 x 6-6.5

 

As far as talk of "rebuilding the defence"  , it certainly needs improvement but it needs it at the top end which I would think is a bit trickier to simply "rebuild".  Perhaps the best bet is to just be patient while Tryamkin,Hughes, Juolevi, Woo, etc. develop along with whoever else they may draft .  Trades are always a possibility but when you look at trades in recent memory where highly impactful , young defensemen change hands it becomes immediately apparent that these deals are relatively rare and always costly.  I doubt the reason Benning has been unable to bring one in is because of poor "targeting" and more for lack of opportunity and the resources needed to make those opportunities. Do you think there was a scenario where he was offered Werenski and was like : Hmmm, no thanks I'll take Derrick pouliot.  The same with free agency; it's rare for a high impact defenseman to make it  market and when he does it means $$$$$$$.  So if anyone has a plan to "rebuild" the defense I would love to hear it.

 

A bit of an off-topic semi-rant but I mentioned Hughes so it counts haha.

[canucksnihilist]

juolevi isnt looking like a pick that will play in the nhl.  hope im wrong but ... injured before his first nhl game just isnt a good sign.  and he is not processing the game at an elite level.  again - hope im proved wrong.

 

if he was picked 12th we wouldnt be complaining.  it was a reach to pick him when we got him.  win some and lose some.   we won EP and we cant complain when we waste a pick.  but Tkachuk would sure look good with bo wouldnt he?

 

 

[theo5789]

19 minutes ago, BlastPast said:

If Juolevi was able to establish himself this season it would have made at least approaching the idea of parting ways with Edler more realistic.  Now that is not going to be the case I think it makes it more difficult , at least long term.  As well as the team is playing the playoffs are still a long shot and I believe the market for Edler would be pretty strong so I'm sure they would like to move him if he would allow it. If he is as motivated to stay in Vancouver as it is reported and the team is keen to have him back there could be the possibility of re-signing on July 1.  My guess is the team wouldn't want to go longer than 2 years for expansion draft purposes but could potentially make him a generous (and deserved tbh) offer of something like 2 x 6-6.5

A couple of things that I don't quite agree with. I don't think Juolevi was anywhere near replacing Edler. If the expectation for Juolevi was to step in and play 20+ mins taking over PP and PK time, then that's just unreasonable expectations for the young man. So it would've taken something magical for them to feel Edler was expendable due to Juolevi even getting a few games at the NHL level. I would say Pouliot would be the odd man out (MDZ is as good as gone trade or not) if Juolevi took another step in development. If anything Hutton's improved play may raise questions about Edler, but I still think Edler will be here to stay simply because he will be the best and cheapest option for a heavy minute man that will fit in better with the timeline of our upcoming prospects. The writing may be on the wall for Pouliot regardless if/when Hughes arrives, but with MDZ likely gone, either Pouliot gets that extra spot or we explore giving someone like Sautner, Brisebois, etc a chance with the big club and maybe even Juolevi gets a look eventually.

 

The other thing is the expansion will have no impact on Edler's contract unless he demands a NMC. If he does make that demand, then he will have to sign for peanuts. With the expansion being in Seattle, I don't think that's far enough for him to be concerned if he does get picked up.

 

19 minutes ago, BlastPast said:

As far as talk of "rebuilding the defence"  , it certainly needs improvement but it needs it at the top end which I would think is a bit trickier to simply "rebuild".  Perhaps the best bet is to just be patient while Tryamkin,Hughes, Juolevi, Woo, etc. develop along with whoever else they may draft .  Trades are always a possibility but when you look at trades in recent memory where highly impactful , young defensemen change hands it becomes immediately apparent that these deals are relatively rare and always costly.  I doubt the reason Benning has been unable to bring one in is because of poor "targeting" and more for lack of opportunity and the resources needed to make those opportunities. Do you think there was a scenario where he was offered Werenski and was like : Hmmm, no thanks I'll take Derrick pouliot.  The same with free agency; it's rare for a high impact defenseman to make it  market and when he does it means $$$$$$$.  So if anyone has a plan to "rebuild" the defense I would love to hear it.

 

A bit of an off-topic semi-rant but I mentioned Hughes so it counts haha.

I agree that it's tricky to rebuild a defense and aside from getting a Karlsson, there likely isn't anyone available that will turn our defense around in UFA. The type of dmen we would like in a trade will cost us something and we finally are stocking the cupboards to potentially make something happen. I could see someone like Gaudette being very enticing, but at the same time he seems like a solid team guy that might become a core player.

 

So with that said, I'm open to exploring on improving the goaltending (Bobrovsky?) to allow the young dmen have better insurance if/when they make mistakes until they are ready. This would accelerate the dmen grooming potentially in that we may able to have a couple young guys in the lineup instead of having one guy getting groomed at the NHL level.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, canucksnihilist said:

juolevi isnt looking like a pick that will play in the nhl.  hope im wrong but ... injured before his first nhl game just isnt a good sign.  and he is not processing the game at an elite level.  again - hope im proved wrong.

 

if he was picked 12th we wouldnt be complaining.  it was a reach to pick him when we got him.  win some and lose some.   we won EP and we cant complain when we waste a pick.  but Tkachuk would sure look good with bo wouldnt he?

 

 

His defense was always a work in progress (as it generally is for young dmen), but by the end of the Finnish season, he was getting big minutes and continued his fine play into their playoffs (7 points in 11 games). He was right up there in rookie scoring as a dman in the AHL prior to his injury. Who knows how he would've progressed with more time here. The injury is a setback, but his development was on the right track at the time. Guys like Chabot and Morrissey for example took a few years after being drafted to establish themselves.

 

Just because he was drafted 5th instead of 12th doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me and I disagree that the complaints would disappear, so at the end of the day, it's not a race to see who gets to the NHL the fastest, but it's about developing a player to try achieve their potential and that requires patience. There have been plenty of amazing careers of sub 1000 NHL games.

 

Some would argue we wouldn't have gotten EP if we had drafted Tkachuk to boost our team that little bit more, so silver linings.

Edited December 24, 2018 by theo5789

[BlastPast]

15 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

A couple of things that I don't quite agree with. I don't think Juolevi was anywhere near replacing Edler. If the expectation for Juolevi was to step in and play 20+ mins taking over PP and PK time, then that's just unreasonable expectations for the young man. So it would've taken something magical for them to feel Edler was expendable due to Juolevi even getting a few games at the NHL level. I would say Pouliot would be the odd man out (MDZ is as good as gone trade or not) if Juolevi took another step in development. If anything Hutton's improved play may raise questions about Edler, but I still think Edler will be here to stay simply because he will be the best and cheapest option for a heavy minute man that will fit in better with the timeline of our upcoming prospects. The writing may be on the wall for Pouliot regardless if/when Hughes arrives, but with MDZ likely gone, either Pouliot gets that extra spot or we explore giving someone like Sautner, Brisebois, etc a chance with the big club and maybe even Juolevi gets a look eventually.

 

I totally agree regarding Juolevi, that's why it was an if .  His AHL season was going fairly well and I think there was a reasonable chance he could have  out performed Pouliot at some point this year.  I was also factoring in the addition of Hughes and Hutton's somewhat resurgence .  Other than that, yes , I agree that we can't afford to lose Edler permanently this season.   

 

21 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

The other thing is the expansion will have no impact on Edler's contract unless he demands a NMC. If he does make that demand, then he will have to sign for peanuts. With the expansion being in Seattle, I don't think that's far enough for him to be concerned if he does get picked up.

 

No impact?  I think Edler may disagree with that.  He may not love the idea of being potentially exposed in an expansion draft.  As far as the money is concerned, I don't think he will have to sign for peanuts anywhere he goes.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

13 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Juolevi got 2nd all time rookie scoring for a dman in the Finnish league (only behind the guy who happened to get 1st in the same season).

I’m sorry but where do people come up with this nonsense. First of all hieskanen wasn’t even a rookie. He played in liiga a as a 17 year old the year prior so last year wasn’t even his rookie season. Also Have people heard the name Reijo Ruotsalainen. He put up 23 points in 30 games during his rookie year.  Now I  know people know the name Sami vatanen, he’s the guy that put up 30 points in 55 games during his rookie liiga season. 

 

I’ve seen this posted twice in this thread word for word. Theo. I like you and think you’re a decent poster but this is what happens. Some people post fake news in order to pump up a prospect and because it sounds positive no ones questions it. Then It spreads like wild fire till innocent people like you reiterate it just assuming it’s true. Juolevi’s a good D. His play speaks for itself. We don’t need to start adding false accolades to his resume.  

 

[theo5789]

28 minutes ago, BlastPast said:

I totally agree regarding Juolevi, that's why it was an if .  His AHL season was going fairly well and I think there was a reasonable chance he could have  out performed Pouliot at some point this year.  I was also factoring in the addition of Hughes and Hutton's somewhat resurgence .  Other than that, yes , I agree that we can't afford to lose Edler permanently this season.   

Hughes and Juolevi would be a lot of inexperience if both are coming in at the same time and Hutton while better this year is no sure thing to continue his progression into Edler like level. If somehow Hughes and Juolevi are ready to take over on the left side, I think I much rather have Edler stabilizing and look at moving Hutton while his value is high (getting top 4 mins and relatively young). So with all that said, IMO, I think we have a need for Edler beyond even just this season anyway especially as an option that would be detrimental cap/contract or asset-wise.

 

28 minutes ago, BlastPast said:

No impact?  I think Edler may disagree with that.  He may not love the idea of being potentially exposed in an expansion draft.  As far as the money is concerned, I don't think he will have to sign for peanuts anywhere he goes.

So either he is exposed in the draft or he becomes a 35 year old UFA looking for a job? I think I would take the guaranteed pay if he can get it as it may be one of his last contracts and like I said, Seattle isn't far from Vancouver, so it won't be a huge move for him. I agree that he won't have to sign for peanuts unless he wants that NMC from us with the term that forces us to protect him in the expansion.

[theo5789]

6 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I’m sorry but where do people come up with this nonsense. First of all hieskanen wasn’t even a rookie. He played in liiga a as a 17 year old the year prior so last year wasn’t even his rookie season. Also Have people heard the name Reijo Ruotsalainen. He put up 23 points in 30 games during his rookie year.  Now I  know people know the name Sami vatanen, he’s the guy that put up 30 points in 55 games during his rookie liiga season. 

 

I’ve seen this posted twice in this thread word for word. Theo. I like you and think you’re a decent poster but this is what happens. Some people post fake news in order to pump up a prospect and because it sounds positive no ones questions it. Then It spreads like wild fire till innocent people like you reiterate it just assuming it’s true. Juolevi’s a good D. His play speaks for itself. We don’t need to start adding false accolades to his resume.  

 

I stand corrected, but the point is that people are writing off Juolevi too early.

 

Juolevi had 19 points in 38 games in Liiga (7 points in 11 games in the playoffs), then followed it up with 13 points in 18 games in the AHL, but the negative ones jump on the +/- because they're looking for something to complain about. And now some think his career is done with this injury.

[cory40]

22 hours ago, JamesB said:

I am not sure it is tanking exactly. Players obviously have preferences about where they want to play and and a guy might honestly give off the vibe that he doesn't really want to play for a particular team. I don't see a problem with that. And that might affect a GM's decision in a close case, especially the GM interprets the lack of enthusiasm as a character issue.  It is not like any GM is ever going to pass on McDavid or Matthews no matter what they see in the interview but, in a close case, I would guess that the level of enthusiasm matters, as do other issues related to character and personality.

 

And Benning is known to put quite a lot of weight on character. It would not surprise me if that the was part of the decision-making in Juolevi vs. Tkachuk and Sergachev... 

I would rather play fornite than practice! Yeh lots of ways to steer teams!

[The Great Canucks]

3 hours ago, canucksnihilist said:

juolevi isnt looking like a pick that will play in the nhl.  hope im wrong but ... injured before his first nhl game just isnt a good sign.  and he is not processing the game at an elite level.  again - hope im proved wrong.

 

if he was picked 12th we wouldnt be complaining.  it was a reach to pick him when we got him.  win some and lose some.   we won EP and we cant complain when we waste a pick.  but Tkachuk would sure look good with bo wouldnt he?

 

 

Excuse me? He has a high IQ. He can process the game at an elite level. The fact that you think otherwise just shows you don't even know what you are talking about.

 

And yes, he actually does look like the type of defenseman who will find his way into the NHL.

[Odd.]

7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I’m sorry but where do people come up with this nonsense. First of all hieskanen wasn’t even a rookie. He played in liiga a as a 17 year old the year prior so last year wasn’t even his rookie season. Also Have people heard the name Reijo Ruotsalainen. He put up 23 points in 30 games during his rookie year.  Now I  know people know the name Sami vatanen, he’s the guy that put up 30 points in 55 games during his rookie liiga season. 

 

I’ve seen this posted twice in this thread word for word. Theo. I like you and think you’re a decent poster but this is what happens. Some people post fake news in order to pump up a prospect and because it sounds positive no ones questions it. Then It spreads like wild fire till innocent people like you reiterate it just assuming it’s true. Juolevi’s a good D. His play speaks for itself. We don’t need to start adding false accolades to his resume.  

 

Someone should pin this post to this thread

 

edit: wrong topic lol

Edited December 24, 2018 by Odd.

[vannuck59]

I thought this was a Hughes thread?

[Odd.]

5 minutes ago, vannuck59 said:

I thought this was a Hughes thread?

lmao, I literally thought this was a Juolevi thread.

[aGENT]

10 hours ago, BlastPast said:

If Juolevi was able to establish himself this season it would have made at least approaching the idea of parting ways with Edler more realistic. 

I don't think moving Edler will have a lick to do with Juolevi one way or the other.

 

IMO, Benning and co have a plan and that plan is building a contender over the next couple years. They'll move Edler so long as he'll waive (TBD) and we can get fair value for him.

 

In that scenario, some mix of Hutton, Pouliot, Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny and eventually (back on topic) Hughes (unless he's still playing) will fill the left side to close out the year.

Edited December 24, 2018 by aGENT

[BlastPast]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

I don't think moving Edler will have a lick to do with Juolevi one way or the other.

 

IMO, Benning and co have a plan and that plan is building a contender over the next couple years. They'll move Edler so long as he'll waive (TBD) and we can get fair value for him.

 

In that scenario, some mix of Hutton, Pouliot, Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny and eventually (back on topic) Hughes (unless he's still playing) will fill the left side to close out the year.

I agree, I was thinking more about the idea of moving on from him beyond this season.  If Hughes and Juolevi established themselves as everyday players by season's end that would only leave one everyday spot open.  They would have to make a call between Edler and Hutton ; experience or youth.  With Juolevi's situation I think it becomes even more likely they would like to have him back. 

[Guest]

So when is the first USA game? Pretty stoked to see Hughes and Madden in action 

[Quantum]

1 hour ago, BlastPast said:

I agree, I was thinking more about the idea of moving on from him beyond this season.  If Hughes and Juolevi established themselves as everyday players by season's end that would only leave one everyday spot open.  They would have to make a call between Edler and Hutton ; experience or youth.  With Juolevi's situation I think it becomes even more likely they would like to have him back.  

Juolevi is out for the season. But that's not the worst thing. His recovery is only six months (so that takes him to mid May since his surgery happened in Mid December). That gives him a full offseason to train which will only benefit him. This season his offseason training was interrupted by back surgery. I'm sure by the Fall Juolevi will come in as fit as ever and ready to challenge for a roster spot.

 

But in the meantime, I'd love to see McEneny and Sautner get legit NHL shots. They've been great soldiers for Utica and long term projects as prospects for the Canucks. Both have shown well in the limited NHL ice time they've had. Sautner was particuarly impressive late last season. I've said it for awhile but I'd love to see both those guys ride out the rest of the season once an Edler and/or Pouliot and/or MDZ gets dealt at or neat the deadline just to see if those two (McEneny and Sautner) can find themselves fitting into the long term plans for the Canucks d-core as bottom pairing guys.

[nowhereman]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

I don't think moving Edler will have a lick to do with Juolevi one way or the other.

 

IMO, Benning and co have a plan and that plan is building a contender over the next couple years. They'll move Edler so long as he'll waive (TBD) and we can get fair value for him.

 

In that scenario, some mix of Hutton, Pouliot, Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny and eventually (back on topic) Hughes (unless he's still playing) will fill the left side to close out the year.

The best case scenario would be to handshake on a deal where Edler is traded for picks and resigns in the off-season. The Canucks want no part of a Edlerless blueline, if they want to remain competitive and insulate the kids for the next few years.

[canucksnihilist]

22 hours ago, The Great Canucks said:

Excuse me? He has a high IQ. He can process the game at an elite level. The fact that you think otherwise just shows you don't even know what you are talking about.

 

And yes, he actually does look like the type of defenseman who will find his way into the NHL.

was paying attention until you got all emotional like a high school kid

[The Great Canucks]

2 hours ago, canucksnihilist said:

was paying attention until you got all emotional like a high school kid

In other words, you weren't actually paying attention.