[Trade] Hurricanes trade Elias Lindholm, Noah Hanifin to Flames for Dougie Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, Adam Fox

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

Lindholm has been great. His contract is looking like a steal.

Fox will have to be a top 2 dman for Carolina for this deal to even out.

Yep, @RobZepp can't be thrilled about this. 

And Hamilton - now that he's no longer beside Norris quality guys like Chara or Gio - appears to be getting exposed as the over-rated, overhyped player some of us thought he was.

[coryberg]

3 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

Lindholm has been great. His contract is looking like a steal.

Fox will have to be a top 2 dman for Carolina for this deal to even out.

Way to early to be making bold predictions like that. It's been 39 games.

[Ryan Strome]

2 hours ago, coryberg said:

Way to early to be making bold predictions like that. It's been 39 games.

Which is exactly why I said looking like

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, oldnews said:

Yep, @RobZepp can't be thrilled about this. 

And Hamilton - now that he's no longer beside Norris quality guys like Chara or Gio - appears to be getting exposed as the over-rated, overhyped player some of us thought he was.

The trade was never going to help Carolina in the now.

 

Hamilton, depending who's opinion, may have been ''better'' than Hanifin? And I wont get in to ''guy in the room'' discussions. But Calgary got younger and faster.  On D!

 

And younger, faster, and more talented up front. Talented by a long shot. Even if Lindholm had struggled in Carolina. He was always better than Ferland.

 

That's a whole lot of younger and faster! That on its own was enough to win the trade IMO. 

 

Its ignited Calgary's team. 

 

 

As an aside I loved watching the Canucks Flames game the other night.  Calgary really deserved the game in many respects. I remember games like it growing up in Win Winnipeg, with Hawerchuck and Steen, Babych. Edmonton would come in, get outplayed. But Gretz or Kurrri, Coffee, someone would steal a goal or two with a wicked shot, or rush. The skills of a top player to win a game in one or two plays. Like Pettersson roofing another bar in deadly shot few could bury. Or Brock's goal. But our goalie & snipers won that game. Its fun when our guys steal wins!

 

Boy Gio still looks fantastic for them. Better than ever, at 35. Him and Johnny have fed off the extra tempo. Having an extra gun & play maker in Lindholm. Who himself never had a chance to look so good without such players before. But Jankowski, even Bennett looks better. Him viable for the first time in a while, with the game at a fstaer pace.  May have saved Sam Bennett?

 

    

[canucklehead44]

This trade was interesting at the time. I liked the players Calgary got back more than the ones they gave up, but felt the trade was evened out by Adam Fox. That said, at the time you could make a pretty good case for Carolina. Hamilton was supposed to be a step up from Hanifin, and Ferland and Lindholm put up comparable numbers with Ferland also adding the size and toughness factor. PLUS Calgary gave up Adam fox.

Ferland and Hanifin are both playing well, as advertised or slightly better whereas Lindholm and Hamilton are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Adam Fox looks great, but it will take a lot for this trade to even out. Throw in Lindholm and Hanifin are younger and are on excellent contracts and Calgary is absolutely laughing. 

[HI5]

Ferland is due for a pay day too soon, I think Flames are lucky to have Lindholm on that contract. He brings a lot more to the table than points, he’s like a more skilled Backlund. Face offs, PKs and covers Monahans ass defensively.

 

I saw an interview somewhere, Peters had mentioned he had Lindholm play in all sorts of situations in Carolina which dampened his offensive numbers. This year he’s in more offensive situations with offensive guys.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

This trade was interesting at the time. I liked the players Calgary got back more than the ones they gave up, but felt the trade was evened out by Adam Fox. That said, at the time you could make a pretty good case for Carolina. Hamilton was supposed to be a step up from Hanifin, and Ferland and Lindholm put up comparable numbers with Ferland also adding the size and toughness factor. PLUS Calgary gave up Adam fox.

Ferland and Hanifin are both playing well, as advertised or slightly better whereas Lindholm and Hamilton are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Adam Fox looks great, but it will take a lot for this trade to even out. Throw in Lindholm and Hanifin are younger and are on excellent contracts and Calgary is absolutely laughing. 

Carolina, just my opinion shook up their management last year.  Probably after ownership, foolishly, grew impatient.

New management, not overly successful in the past either, inexperienced coach (although I love Brind A' Mour) and years of not making the play off's. Impatient with not winning. Impatient that lottery picks Hanifin & Lindholm seemed a pace behind some other top picks.  Foolhearty.

 

Francis had managed to steal, and draft some very exciting talent over the previous 3, 4 years.  Many, myself included, thought they were a team on the rise. 2 or 3 of the best young D in the league. Aho proving he was the driver along with Laine on team Finland, not Pujujarvi. They, probably, were just the correct depth pieces away from making the post season? Some guys to win puck battles, some toughness, PK and fore-check...

 

In comes the new regime. The depth pieces were (possibly correctly) established as a weakness? Martinook was a good acquisition. They paid through the nose for Ferland. Who does play hard. Problem is Linholm and Hanifin are faster, slicker & more polished.

 

Why give up so early on lotter picks Lindholm & Hanifin? True, the did not light up the night sky, score goals like Raantanen, or Laine? But they were still highly functional players in Carolina. Who had speed, were hard to guard, and athleticism, some puck skill. They flushed Hanifin & Lindholm, with stars in their eyes for 50ish point D man Hamilton, who is 6'5''. Also thinking that would add to their physical edge.

 

Vancouver is starting to prove you can acquire ''depth'' players inexpensively.  See Granlund, Beagle, we did not pay a lottery pick to get Gudbrandson & people here are still (foolishly) frustrated with his cost. Even Eriksson kills penalties and is effective defensively.  

 

Hamilton is slow? Skilled as all get up! But slow! And he does not play hard. Its why, now, two teams have been happy to give up on him. Svechnikov was coming, Aho had already shown clear signs he was coming on, a couple of draft picks in Kuokkenen & Bean were still pending. They did not even need Hamilton for points on their PP?  Faulk, who they have not traded, has always been one of the leagues top man advantage RHD.

 

Fox better sign.

 

And he better be able to deal with NHL checking & pace, physicality. 

 

Carolina went seriously backwards to get him. They're only a couple points above last in the league.

[theo5789]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Carolina, just my opinion shook up their management last year.  Probably after ownership, foolishly, grew impatient.

New management, not overly successful in the past either, inexperienced coach (although I love Brind A' Mour) and years of not making the play off's. Impatient with not winning. Impatient that lottery picks Hanifin & Lindholm seemed a pace behind some other top picks.  Foolhearty.

 

Francis had managed to steal, and draft some very exciting talent over the previous 3, 4 years.  Many, myself included, thought they were a team on the rise. 2 or 3 of the best young D in the league. Aho proving he was the driver along with Laine on team Finland, not Pujujarvi. They, probably, were just the correct depth pieces away from making the post season? Some guys to win puck battles, some toughness, PK and fore-check...

 

In comes the new regime. The depth pieces were (possibly correctly) established as a weakness? Martinook was a good acquisition. They paid through the nose for Ferland. Who does play hard. Problem is Linholm and Hanifin are faster, slicker & more polished.

 

Why give up so early on lotter picks Lindholm & Hanifin? True, the did not light up the night sky, score goals like Raantanen, or Laine? But they were still highly functional players in Carolina. Who had speed, were hard to guard, and athleticism, some puck skill. They flushed Hanifin & Lindholm, with stars in their eyes for 50ish point D man Hamilton, who is 6'5''. Also thinking that would add to their physical edge.

 

Vancouver is starting to prove you can acquire ''depth'' players inexpensively.  See Granlund, Beagle, we did not pay a lottery pick to get Gudbrandson & people here are still (foolishly) frustrated with his cost. Even Eriksson kills penalties and is effective defensively.  

 

Hamilton is slow? Skilled as all get up! But slow! And he does not play hard. Its why, now, two teams have been happy to give up on him. Svechnikov was coming, Aho had already shown clear signs he was coming on, a couple of draft picks in Kuokkenen & Bean were still pending. They did not even need Hamilton for points on their PP?  Faulk, who they have not traded, has always been one of the leagues top man advantage RHD.

 

Fox better sign.

 

And he better be able to deal with NHL checking & pace, physicality. 

 

Carolina went seriously backwards to get him. They're only a couple points above last in the league.

Hindsight makes the deal not look great for Carolina at this point, but we have to look at it at the time of the trade. Carolina had new ownership and they were looking for a shakeup for a team that had not made the playoffs in 9 years. They had progressed 3 seasons ago, then dipped back down (in the standings) and became stagnant the year after, so hard to justify progress in the team. Lindholm and Hanifin may have been serviceable players, but they weren't pushing the team forward at that point and had big salary demands (whether in hopes of trying to get out or maybe they wanted to be paid to stay in Carolina) that may have been hard to justify at that point (again hindsight would show it was worth it at least in Lindholm's case). I felt both players should have been signed to bridge deals (I'm sure Lindholm likely feels the same at this point) as both guys coming to a new team had to prove their worth as they had big demands at the time for what they provided.

 

With that said, Carolina felt they saw an opportunity to get a 50 point dman and get a guy with size and skill that can play with Aho and protect him if needed. Ferland had looked good to start the season, but has suffered a concussion this year. Adam Fox is a wildcard (he has said he doesn't have a plan to sign with a certain team, but rather wants to find a way to make the NHL ASAP, so Carolina just needs to make room for him), but definitely looking at the trade at this point, it looks favourable to Calgary, but it's only been half a season since the trade and a lot still needs to be played out. I wouldn't consider any of these players as "depth guys" when they were acquired.

 

As for Carolina as a team at this point, they may be 3 points out of last right now, but they are also 3 points from jumping up 4 more spots as well in the league. They also have game(s) in hand amongst all teams below they (except St. Louis) and they are in the grouping with games in hand over a grouping of teams that are currently above them. For example, the Canucks are 5 points up, but have played 4 more games. So Carolina just needs to hit a nice streak and can make up a lot of ground. At the same time, they could very well stealth tank and get another top young player on an ELC contract.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

Hindsight makes the deal not look great for Carolina at this point,

I never liked it from Carolina's perspective. I noted Calgary got two lottery pick calibre players. Carolina one & a rental. And I knew Hanifin was the better athlete on D. 

 

And in Hamilton's case, I questioned whether they needed a RHD PP specialist. 

 

Its here somewhere in this thread, back in summer.

 

I have to admit, I have been impressed with how good Lindholm has become.

[theo5789]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I never liked it from Carolina's perspective. I noted Calgary got two lottery pick calibre players. Carolina one & a rental. And I knew Hanifin was the better athlete on D. 

 

And in Hamilton's case, I questioned whether they needed a RHD PP specialist. 

 

Its here somewhere in this thread, back in summer.

 

I have to admit, I have been impressed with how good Lindholm has become.

Carolina certainly moved on from the younger players, but they were looking to shake things up because while 3 seasons ago, they looked to be trending in the right direction, they slipped again and became stagnant in the standings the next couple of seasons. Hamilton was showing to be a 50 point guy and while not great defensively, Hanifin was producing less and wasn't particularly great defensively either, so it looked like an immediate uptick there. Lindholm had been getting 40-45 point consistently over 4 seasons, but who knows if he would've taken it to another level with the Hurricanes, so he got replaced with a guy who just had a career year with 41 points while adding the physical aspect. Ferland despite having the concussion is still on pace to match his career year in less games, so it was a bit of a wash at the time of the trade. Then add in the contract demands from the two RFAs and maybe they weren't ready to invest that much in players who weren't quite taking them to the next level. But they did get a highly touted prospect in Fox, who has said he's looking to sign with a particular team but just wants to make the NHL ASAP, and he offsets some of the youth and potential.

 

So I'm not say Carolina did the right thing or not, but at the time of the trade, I could see what they were trying to do and tried to make  a hockey trade.

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Carolina certainly moved on from the younger players, but they were looking to shake things up because while 3 seasons ago, they looked to be trending in the right direction, they slipped again and became stagnant in the standings the next couple of seasons. Hamilton was showing to be a 50 point guy and while not great defensively, Hanifin was producing less and wasn't particularly great defensively either, so it looked like an immediate uptick there. Lindholm had been getting 40-45 point consistently over 4 seasons, but who knows if he would've taken it to another level with the Hurricanes, so he got replaced with a guy who just had a career year with 41 points while adding the physical aspect. Ferland despite having the concussion is still on pace to match his career year in less games, so it was a bit of a wash at the time of the trade. Then add in the contract demands from the two RFAs and maybe they weren't ready to invest that much in players who weren't quite taking them to the next level. But they did get a highly touted prospect in Fox, who has said he's looking to sign with a particular team but just wants to make the NHL ASAP, and he offsets some of the youth and potential.

 

So I'm not say Carolina did the right thing or not, but at the time of the trade, I could see what they were trying to do and tried to make  a hockey trade.

For perspective, Ferlands best year to Lindholm's age at the time of the trade was 18 points. 

 

The original ''tone'' of my first post was designed to be a GM trading a skilled player for one who was physical. Under the illusion that old time hockey was going to win. I got sidetracked from that theme. Got over involved in how Carolina just lost the trade. 

 

Hopefully Fox does not do as rumoured. And opt for UFA after his 4th year in college. Or Ferland walk UFA this summer.  

[oldnews]

5 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Carolina certainly moved on from the younger players, but they were looking to shake things up because while 3 seasons ago, they looked to be trending in the right direction, they slipped again and became stagnant in the standings the next couple of seasons. Hamilton was showing to be a 50 point guy and while not great defensively, Hanifin was producing less and wasn't particularly great defensively either, so it looked like an immediate uptick there. Lindholm had been getting 40-45 point consistently over 4 seasons, but who knows if he would've taken it to another level with the Hurricanes, so he got replaced with a guy who just had a career year with 41 points while adding the physical aspect. Ferland despite having the concussion is still on pace to match his career year in less games, so it was a bit of a wash at the time of the trade. Then add in the contract demands from the two RFAs and maybe they weren't ready to invest that much in players who weren't quite taking them to the next level. But they did get a highly touted prospect in Fox, who has said he's looking to sign with a particular team but just wants to make the NHL ASAP, and he offsets some of the youth and potential.

 

So I'm not say Carolina did the right thing or not, but at the time of the trade, I could see what they were trying to do and tried to make  a hockey trade.

It wasn't a terrible attempt at a hockey trade - however, I have to take issue with one fundamental premise here:  that Carolina needed to 'shake things up' or had become 'stagnant'.

 

And if that were the case, they just gambled on the shorter term and are losing even there.

 

Have a look at the roster they finished last season with - all that young talent up front and on their back end - then look at their prospects both up front and on the blueline - and then try to tell me that franchise had gotten 'stagnant'.   On the contrary - Ron Francis was killing it in terms of both their drafting record and their development - and had made very few mistakes - with the caveat that mistakes like gambling on a player like Darling was a reasonable risk, and not one that handicapped them enough - with all that youth, RFAs, ELCs for flexibilty moving forward.

 

I'd take the team this owner inherited over what he's inspired any and every time - and the worst is probably yet to come.

 

One of the ugliest firings in recent history imo, maybe as bad or even worse than the dismissal of Talon and Gallant in Florida.  An owner that could not see that team's previous trajectory is an owner that is nothing resembling a hockey person = part of the problem in the 'modern' NHL - wealthy American buyers that lack the wisdom to leave or put their franchises in the hands of people that know what they're doing. 

 

And all of this precipitated by an owner who recently voiced the opinion that his team should not draft defensemen, because he wants to watch 5-4 games ad infinitum.

Honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard out of the mouth of someone that factors prominently in the direction and decision-making of a franchise.

 

Every GM in the league should be dialing that owner directly with proposals, selling him on the futility of retaining defensemen like Slavvin or Pesce, and taking him to the cleaners he deserves.

 

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

It wasn't a terrible attempt at a hockey trade - however, I have to take issue with one fundamental premise here:  that Carolina needed to 'shake things up' or had become 'stagnant'.

 

And if that were the case, they just gambled on the shorter term and are losing even there.

 

Have a look at the roster they finished last season with - all that young talent up front and on their back end - then look at their prospects both up front and on the blueline - and then try to tell me that franchise had gotten 'stagnant'.   On the contrary - Ron Francis was killing it in terms of both their drafting record and their development - and had made very few mistakes - with the caveat that mistakes like gambling on a player like Darling was a reasonable risk, and not one that handicapped them enough - with all that youth, RFAs, ELCs for flexibilty moving forward.

 

I'd take the team this owner inherited over what he's inspired any and every time - and the worst is probably yet to come.

 

One of the ugliest firings in recent history imo, maybe as bad or even worse than the dismissal of Talon and Gallant in Florida.  An owner that could not see that team's previous trajectory is an owner that is nothing resembling a hockey person = part of the problem in the 'modern' NHL - wealthy American buyers that lack the wisdom to leave or put their franchises in the hands of people that know what they're doing. 

 

And all of this precipitated by an owner who recently voiced the opinion that his team should not draft defensemen, because he wants to watch 5-4 games ad infinitum.

Honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard out of the mouth of someone that factors prominently in the direction and decision-making of a franchise.

 

Every GM in the league should be dialing that owner directly with proposals, selling him on the futility of retaining defensemen like Slavvin or Pesce, and taking him to the cleaners he deserves.

 

I don't disagree with this at all, just trying to look at it from their perspective. To be fair, a lot of fan reaction here to us finishing at the bottom for several years and demanding wholesale changes through management and what not is basically demonstrated by what has happened here in Carolina. A lot of fans here are starting to be "won back"/back on the bandwagon somewhat because we stayed the course while it looks like Carolina tried for a quick jump back.

 

The reason I mentioned stagnant is simply from their standings where 3 years ago, they finished 18th in the league and then dropped to 21st and 21st again last season. They were rebuilding and should have kept developing their players, but they chose to "shake things up" and see what happens while spending a bit less this year than paying (investing) the guys their contract demands.

 

There's still half a season left though and Carolina are still in the thick of things and maybe simply making the playoffs this year will be enough for them to justify their move.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

For perspective, Ferlands best year to Lindholm's age at the time of the trade was 18 points. 

 

The original ''tone'' of my first post was designed to be a GM trading a skilled player for one who was physical. Under the illusion that old time hockey was going to win. I got sidetracked from that theme. Got over involved in how Carolina just lost the trade. 

 

Hopefully Fox does not do as rumoured. And opt for UFA after his 4th year in college. Or Ferland walk UFA this summer.  

No one is comparing Ferland and Lindholm as direct comparisons for players. Ferland showed he was capable of putting up 40+ points, so it may have seemed like a wash if Lindholm remained a 40-45 point player for them while Ferland added a physical element as well. Ferland started out the year very well, but is still on pace to match his career high in points in slightly less games.

 

Well there's always going to be that debate of physical hockey vs skilled, much like advanced stats vs eye test. Carolina is on the losing end right now of the trade, but there's still half a season and their goal is to make the playoffs, which they are not out of just yet.

 

The Fox and Ferland situations will certainly add to how this trade plays out.

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I don't disagree with this at all, just trying to look at it from their perspective. To be fair, a lot of fan reaction here to us finishing at the bottom for several years and demanding wholesale changes through management and what not is basically demonstrated by what has happened here in Carolina. A lot of fans here are starting to be "won back"/back on the bandwagon somewhat because we stayed the course while it looks like Carolina tried for a quick jump back.

 

The reason I mentioned stagnant is simply from their standings where 3 years ago, they finished 18th in the league and then dropped to 21st and 21st again last season. They were rebuilding and should have kept developing their players, but they chose to "shake things up" and see what happens while spending a bit less this year than paying (investing) the guys their contract demands.

 

There's still half a season left though and Carolina are still in the thick of things and maybe simply making the playoffs this year will be enough for them to justify their move.

yeah, I think you made a good and clear point(s) - not really taking issue with your fair devil's advocate perspective on what they were thinking - I'm just miffed that they intervened and got impatient with a transition that was unfolding better than a noob like that owner appears to have realized - and now the potential derailment is on him, not the very competent person he fired and presumed to 'upgrade' upon.   Francis may not have been perfect, but I found him extremely impressive, particularly with what he had to work with - imo really overachieved with the pace and quality of that rething.  I hope he finds another NHL job soon, with a franchise I like, because if any of what transpired in Carolina was his 'fault', he deserves another shot imo.

The arrogant "I expect results" - and now - thing really rubs me the wrong way - particularly when the guy losing his job certainly has a far better grasp of reality than the puffed up chest of a money thrower who would be ironically far less able to produce those results himself. 

I feel bad for 'true' Carolina fans - but at the same time never considered that a viable hockey market.   Perhaps the bright side will be that this owner winds up driving that team in the end back to Quebec City lol.

Edited January 2, 2019 by oldnews

[theo5789]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

yeah, I think you made a good and clear point(s) - not really taking issue with your fair devil's advocate perspective on what they were thinking - I'm just miffed that they intervened and got impatient with a transition that was unfolding better than a noob like that owner appears to have realized - and now the potential derailment is on him, not the very competent person he fired and presumed to 'upgrade' upon.   Francis may not have been perfect, but I found him extremely impressive, particularly with what he had to work with - imo really overachieved with the pace and quality of that rething.  I hope he finds another NHL job soon, with a franchise I like, because if any of what transpired in Carolina was his 'fault', he deserves another shot imo.

Things certainly get tricky when an owner gets too involved. I think it's still too early to judge whether or not Carolina is in a path of derailment just yet from this trade alone. Some players need a change of scenery to take their game to another level which Lindholm has shown. Fox could come as advertised and even up the deal a bit more in the long term.

 

Francis does deserve another shot though. Hopefully a team like the Oilers don't pick him up though.

[oldnews]

18 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Things certainly get tricky when an owner gets too involved. I think it's still too early to judge whether or not Carolina is in a path of derailment just yet from this trade alone. Some players need a change of scenery to take their game to another level which Lindholm has shown. Fox could come as advertised and even up the deal a bit more in the long term.

 

Francis does deserve another shot though. Hopefully a team like the Oilers don't pick him up though.

I don't really think they're derailing - due to the fact they've been set up handily with a wealth of futures that ought to be able to virtually auto-pilot to reasonable results.

But it only takes a few clusterducks to make the difference between being a bubble team and a contender - and moving a couple Lindholm/Hanifin types for guys that walk or bust can be all it takes to make that difference in the end.

Edited January 2, 2019 by oldnews

[burrardstreetbullies]

you know i was laughing about this earlier.    calgary was able to retool in one summer and accomplish more what the entire edmonton org has done in a regular season since the gretz days.   total comical lol

[cyoung]

Lol when the trade happened I felt like Carolina dropped the ball hard....now I have realized that it's much worse than I originally thought lol.

[Ryan Strome]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:41 PM, oldnews said:

Yep, @RobZepp can't be thrilled about this. 

And Hamilton - now that he's no longer beside Norris quality guys like Chara or Gio - appears to be getting exposed as the over-rated, overhyped player some of us thought he was.

Let's face it Carolina is just like Edmonton, players are far better when they leave. This trade isn't even close anymore unless Fox becomes Orr.

 

Hanifin is better than Hamilton and Lindholm is a ppg player that is responsible all over the ice. @Rob_Zepp and @Alflives couldn't have been more wrong about Hanifin and especially Lindholm. On top of that both of these two are signed to great contracts.

 

Alf and Rob I like you two but I had to give you guys the gears a bit.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Ryan Strome