The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks

[Smashian Kassian]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:38 PM, Baggins said:

No single player is going to 'turn things around' early in a rebuild.

 

McCann was traded early in the rebuild. A position of depth moved for a position lacking depth. More often than not that's why trades happen. Being early in the rebuild there would be many more centers to come. Even looking at it from that point in time Horvat looked to be a lock as a 2C. Many here were already declaring him our future 1C but my opinion was he'd cap out at a poor mans 1C or elite 2C. Is McCann a 1C? My view of McCann at the time was top 6 and we'd need better than Horvat/McCann as a 1 - 2 punch down the middle. Then of course there was talk of an attitude problem with him. Such things always fall to the wayside after a trade. Moving him didn't bother me at all. Particularly moving him for a big young d-man.

 

That said I tire of "we traded a valuable asset". You have to trade something to get something. How often do you see the typical proposal here of three spare parts (unpopular players) getting a quality player in return? What I call EA syndrome. Gudbranson was a big top 4 d-man in Florida. He had just led all their D in ice time in the playoffs. Like him or not, he was a valuable young asset when the trade mas made. 

 

Btw, McCann was part of a package that got Florida two expiring contracts and a couple of lower draft picks. You wouldn't get a young top 4 d-man even now without adding to the deal. Here's what McCann + Bjudstad got Florida:

 

Both Brassard, 31, and Sheahan, 27, are set to become unrestricted free agents at season's end. Neither center is having a particularly strong season, as Brassard has collected just 15 points, while Sheahan has only nine. Sheahan is not known for his offensive abilities, but Brassard has been a consistent 40-to-50 point player over his 12-year career.

 

So Florida got a couple of cap dumps and three draft picks in a deal that included McCann plus Bjudstad. And we all know taking on cap dumps inflates the return (the draft picks). 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I didn't hate moving McCann either, I almost hated giving up the high 2nd (#38 I believe) more.

 

I know he was 24 turning 25, so there was hope he could grow as a core player here, but it did seem like a move to accelerate the rebuild. Which, along with us still relying on aging top players & not having good prospect depth, is why I question the timing of giving up those assets.

 

Don't get me wrong, while I wasn't over the moon about the trade, I definitely hoped Gudbranson could be a good 2nd pair guy for us.

 

I guess if Gudbranson had turned out as hoped it wouldn't be second-guessed as much. I guess the failure on our end is the pro-scouting side & we paid the price long term for it. (also considering some of the other trades/signings in saying that)

 

 

On 3/17/2019 at 8:58 AM, aGENT said:

Top 4 D in FLA before we traded for him, top 4D in PIT after we traded him away.

 

Should he own some responsibility for his poor play while here? Certainly. Does he seem to be able to perform at a top 4 level - with a laundry list of intangibles to boot - elsewhere, when properly supported...Ayyup.

 

And I'd hardly call a middle 6 C and a 2nd a 'premium'. It's not like we moved Horvat and a 1st here.

For a #4 DFD I'd say it was a premium.

 

21 yr old talented 2-way C (recent first round pick) with definite top 6 potential & the 38th pick overall, in a draft that had good depth into the 2nd round. (DeBrincat, Hart, Girard, exc. available at that pick)

 

If he needs the right situation to be a #4 D then the fault is on the pro side of this regime for not knowing that before they made the trade. 

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

If he needs the right situation to be a #4 D then the fault is on the pro side of this regime for not knowing that before they made the trade. 

Completely agree. Targeting, acquiring and extending a D man (with a much needed skill set IMO) with evidently little to no plan to actually put him in a position to succeed given his weaknesses and strengths, was poor management IMO.

 

[Smashian Kassian]

On 3/18/2019 at 7:18 PM, aGENT said:

Completely agree. Targeting, acquiring and extending a D man (with a much needed skill set IMO) with evidently little to no plan to actually put him in a position to succeed given his weaknesses and strengths, was poor management IMO.

 

Glad we could find common ground here

[Drakrami]

What's Utica's record since trading Dahlen? Why is it so pathetic... not even gonna make the playoffs now when it looked like a sure thing before. 

[SingleThorn]

5 hours ago, Drakrami said:

What's Utica's record since trading Dahlen? Why is it so pathetic... not even gonna make the playoffs now when it looked like a sure thing before. 

Comets defence was down to an aging Sifers and an underwhelming Chatfield ( Blujus is back now ) plus a bunch of ECHLs. Boucher went out about the same time as Dahlen. Bigger lose than Dahlen ! You are really stretching logic when you put the Comet's recent record on the Dahlen trade !

 

I did not like losing Dahlen, but would bet your next paycheque that we only know parts of the story.

 

 

[Drakrami]

1 hour ago, SingleThorn said:

Comets defence was down to an aging Sifers and an underwhelming Chatfield ( Blujus is back now ) plus a bunch of ECHLs. Bouchard went out about the same time as Dahlen. Bigger lose than Dahlen ! You are really stretching logic when you put the Comet's recent record on the Dahlen trade !

 

I did not like losing Dahlen, but would bet your next paycheque that we only know parts of the story.

 

 

never once said they were losing because they traded Dahlen, dont have to be so sensitive. What's Bouchard got to do with Utica Comets..? 

[Mo Grit]

On 3/18/2019 at 7:18 PM, aGENT said:

Completely agree. Targeting, acquiring and extending a D man (with a much needed skill set IMO) with evidently little to no plan to actually put him in a position to succeed given his weaknesses and strengths, was poor management IMO.

An interesting observation aGENT, deserving further inquiry, but let's not dismiss the injuries to Tanev and Edler which forced an overexposure of Guddy's limitations.  Canuck's staffing reveals the following 26 professionals, in Vancouver alone, available to a roster player searching for his 'best position to succeed' :

 

GM, his Assistant, Senior Advisor, General Counsel, Senior Director Analytics, Director Player Development, Head Coach, 3 Assistant Coaches, Senior Advisor, Director of Goaltending, Goaltending Coach, Video Coach, Skill Coach, Strength and Conditioning Coach, Head Athletic Therapist, his Assistant, Strength and Development Coach, Rehab Specialist, Team Physician, Primary Team Physician, Team Optometrist, Team Chiropractor, Team Dentist and finally, Sports Psychologist.

 

I'm intrigued by the last title because its filled by the eminently qualified Dr David Cox, who's a full-time professor at Simon Fraser University.  I find it unclear how he can of been any help to a struggling pro like Guddy.  The odd group seminar won't be of much use, and besides, you can play through a toothache.  Yet none of the above staff have proved capable of improving Guddy's shortcomings.  He leaves Vancouver with the same tools he arrived, apart from less confidence.

 

Beginning to look like any player signing in Vancouver better be fully formed.  Or, maybe Jim will focus on hiring more informed scouting.

 

[aGENT]

17 minutes ago, Mo Grit said:

An interesting observation aGENT, deserving further inquiry, but let's not dismiss the injuries to Tanev and Edler which forced an overexposure of Guddy's limitations.  Canuck's staffing reveals the following 26 professionals, in Vancouver alone, available to a roster player searching for his 'best position to succeed' :

 

GM, his Assistant, Senior Advisor, General Counsel, Senior Director Analytics, Director Player Development, Head Coach, 3 Assistant Coaches, Senior Advisor, Director of Goaltending, Goaltending Coach, Video Coach, Skill Coach, Strength and Conditioning Coach, Head Athletic Therapist, his Assistant, Strength and Development Coach, Rehab Specialist, Team Physician, Primary Team Physician, Team Optometrist, Team Chiropractor, Team Dentist and finally, Sports Psychologist.

 

I'm intrigued by the last title because its filled by the eminently qualified Dr David Cox, who's a full-time professor at Simon Fraser University.  I find it unclear how he can of been any help to a struggling pro like Guddy.  The odd group seminar won't be of much use, and besides, you can play through a toothache.  Yet none of the above staff have proved capable of improving Guddy's shortcomings.  He leaves Vancouver with the same tools he arrived, apart from less confidence.

 

Beginning to look like any player signing in Vancouver better be fully formed.  Or, maybe Jim will focus on hiring more informed scouting.

 

Gudbranson has his weaknesses as a player. In the right 'position to succeed' (better, more experienced/supportive forwards and/or a solid D partner) he can utilize his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses (see: his play in FLA and PIT) while bringing some much needed elements to a team.

 

Now, unsurprisingly a mid-rebuild team was always going to struggle to provide the experienced, supportive, veteran forward group. But the club never seemed to have a plan in place to put him with a complimentary partner (other than the short stint with Edler which, unsurprisingly, he looked quite good). That's where the lion's share of the failure of this experiment is IMO. 

 

But yes, injuries forcing him to play over his head also further compounded the problem (never mind his own injury issues while here).

[SingleThorn]

1 hour ago, Drakrami said:

never once said they were losing because they traded Dahlen, dont have to be so sensitive. What's Bouchard got to do with Utica Comets..? 

You worded your post in a way that says losing Dahlen and games are connected. I have edited the Bouchard reference to Boucher ! Mea culpa.

[smokes]

First, Get rid of Cull, Secind, Vancouver needs to get the farm team closer to home.

[oldnews]

What a failure of a story, wadr.

 

The Canucks have poached Utica's lineup all year long - M.A.S.H. reality on both sides of the ledger for Utica.

 

And yet here are the Canucks prospects - failed by Utica.....

 

Contributing to a late season push to stay in the playoff race.

 

Sautner

Brisebois

Gaudette

Just the latest of guys the Canucks take from Utica - all playing key roles in a resurgence of late.

Schenn also belongs in Utica - one more piece they are without.

Really - in the end - Biega - a guy that pushed his way from Utica into the Canucks top 8 - is being leaned on to play a #3 role in the present.   That's how depleted these clubs have been.

 

Utica themselves, nevertheless are 31-28 for 70 pts - 4 pts out of the playoff race..if they were in the Central, they'd be 2 pts out...

None of the Canucks top prospects - save Kole Lind - are playing in Utica.....

 

A lot of noise about nothing imo.