The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks

[Pickly]

1 hour ago, canuckster19 said:

I know I'm going on a bit of a tangent, but I wonder if the draft age in the NHL is too low? I mean I agree there are players who are 18 that will be able to help their team quite quickly but I wonder if a system where, lets say round one you can draft 18 year olds, but round 2-7 you can only draft say guys who are 22.

 

I wonder if a developmental system separate from the NHL wouldbe beneficial? So guys who aren't drafted at 18 stay in the CHL or NCAA whereever until they hit 22, that way it might be more consistent to find NHLers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

 

I dunno, just a thought. I think to the NFL that drafts 21-22 year olds and they're way more successful with their drafting than the NHL is, although maybe that's just career turnover?

The draft is fine the way it is. More and more players are stepping in and lighting it up as 19-20 year olds now more than ever. Players are peaking around 25-27 and seems as if 30 is the new 35 for when average players play seriously drops off. 

 

Imagine a 19 year old quarterback with 2 years of NCAA experience under his belt entering the NFL draft and having Von Miller or JJ Watt coming at you full steam? Most players aren’t physically or mentally ready until their Junior or Senior year. 

[SingleThorn]

2 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

I know I'm going on a bit of a tangent, but I wonder if the draft age in the NHL is too low? I mean I agree there are players who are 18 that will be able to help their team quite quickly but I wonder if a system where, lets say round one you can draft 18 year olds, but round 2-7 you can only draft say guys who are 22.

 

I wonder if a developmental system separate from the NHL wouldbe beneficial? So guys who aren't drafted at 18 stay in the CHL or NCAA whereever until they hit 22, that way it might be more consistent to find NHLers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

 

I dunno, just a thought. I think to the NFL that drafts 21-22 year olds and they're way more successful with their drafting than the NHL is, although maybe that's just career turnover?

Two things. First, the WHA owed much of it's existence to the then 20 year old NHL draft. The NHL does not want WHA 2:0. Secondly, there were iirc threats of lawsuits against the 20 year old draft as 'adulthood' in North Am is 18 and players objected to the NHL overriding country law, depriving them of a potential paycheque. The NHLPA would revolt, many players would revolt. Legally 18 yo draft is the only option ( my opinion ).

[canucksnihilist]

4 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Not exactly accurate.  A strong AHL club does not necessarily mean they have a lot of quality prospects on that team.  In fact, it often indicates a lot of AHL vets.  Guys who put up strong numbers in this league but are nothing more than fringe NHLers.  Former Canuck Jason Krog is a good example of this.  

 

A team full of 20 year highly skilled prospects might actually have a tough time against a team full of solid AHL veterans.  What you want is some form of combination of the two. 

You need a handful of vets and then a team full of promising prospects   Neither of which utica has....

 

It is 100% acurate

 

[stawns]

3 hours ago, Pickly said:

The draft is fine the way it is. More and more players are stepping in and lighting it up as 19-20 year olds now more than ever. Players are peaking around 25-27 and seems as if 30 is the new 35 for when average players play seriously drops off. 

 

Imagine a 19 year old quarterback with 2 years of NCAA experience under his belt entering the NFL draft and having Von Miller or JJ Watt coming at you full steam? Most players aren’t physically or mentally ready until their Junior or Senior year. 

I'd like to see the numbers on that.  There's always been 18-19 year olds coming into the league and being very successful.

[oldnews]

On 3/7/2019 at 10:47 PM, canucksnihilist said:

This whole thead is just hot air.

 

utica sucks cause there arent enough quality prospects.  That hurts development - obviously.  End of thread....

 

So wait a few more drafts and it solves itself.

I think you've answered the key point that others may not have realized - is a response to the OP.

 

I agree with you for the most part, particularly because of where the bulk of Canucks prospects and picks have landed.

 

Benning's tenure (and assets that are still with the organization):

 

Virtanen

Demko

Tryamkin

= all graduated or bypassed Utica.

 

Boeser 

Gaudette

= Boeser bypassed Utica while it would be absurd to suggest Utica has failed Gaudette in his development.

 

Brisebois - seems to be devloping just fine for a longshot who has had recalls.

Jasek - another longshot who's a .5 ppg rookie in the AHL at 21yrs old - reasonable enough.

 

Juolevi - was doing fine in Utica - but is not available to them for obvious reasons.

 

Pettersson = likewise - bypassed Utica.

 

MacEwen - an undrafted FA signing appears to have been served well enough by Utica - has been a 22yr old recall to Van.  Gaunce....not sure how we'd claim Utica has failed him?

 

What exactly is the "crisis"?   That  a few very young guys like Lind or Gadj haven't excelled yet as rookies?

One Dahlen whining about opportunities he feels he deserved?

 

For the most part, the Canucks B prospects are in Utica - with the exceptions of Juolevi and Gaudette (both who seem to have done fine there) - while otherwise the bulk of their higher end guys had short or no stops there.

 

Like the Canucks - they've been hammered by injuries - some on their own roster - and many on the Van roster resulting in a stream of Uticans to the parent club - players that Utica allegedly are failing, but who have filled in just fine at the NHL level, thanks.  But whatever - it's (the AHL) a development league - and it's not the only destination of NHL prospects - some of whom go to college and bypass the AHL, some to Europe, some too young and still in the CHL...

I think the point Newbie makes above is fair and true enough - that AHL results tend to be gained for the most part by veterans and guys that aren't necessarily top prospects (those tend to get poached by  the parent club and the better they are, they shorter they're in the A...) - but that wasn't necessarily the crux of the thread.

 

The real 'problem' is that the Van media are full of ambulance chasers and alarmist wankers.

 

 

 

[Timråfan]

On 3/10/2019 at 3:06 AM, oldnews said:

What exactly is the "crisis"?   That  a few very young guys like Lind or Gadj haven't excelled yet as rookies?

One Dahlen whining about opportunities he feels he deserved?

The crisis might be that vets take valuable experience from the prospects. Vancouver shoves time and money down the drain when they let prospects compete with vets(of no interest for NHL) instead of developing the prospects first and foremost. 

 

[canucksnihilist]

4 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

The crisis might be that vets take valuable experience from the prospects. Vancouver shoves time and money down the drain when they let prospects compete with vets(of no interest for NHL) instead of developing the prospects first and foremost. 

 

That may be how it seems...

 

reality is isually a little more metered and thought out.  Which prospects have not received time in Utica?  Due to the presence of older vets?  

 

This utica thing is just the latest target of the media - trying to find out what to talk about when there isn’t anything.  Give utica some players to develop then we will see - the top players seem to skip utica so we don’t really know yet

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Timråfan said:

The crisis might be that vets take valuable experience from the prospects. Vancouver shoves time and money down the drain when they let prospects compete with vets(of no interest for NHL) instead of developing the prospects first and foremost. 

 

Note the bolded and particularly the underlined.

 

That IS how you develop players FYI. Same as on the parent club, you must show yourself to be a better option than vets on the roster. You need to act, train and play like a pro (as those vets do) to do so.

 

Young players need to earn their playing time.

[aGENT]

56 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

That may be how it seems...

 

reality is isually a little more metered and thought out.  Which prospects have not received time in Utica?  Due to the presence of older vets?  

 

This utica thing is just the latest target of the media - trying to find out what to talk about when there isn’t anything.  Give utica some players to develop then we will see - the top players seem to skip utica so we don’t really know yet

Hast thou seen thy light? 

[hobart16]

On 3/6/2019 at 3:39 PM, Sergei Shirokov said:

Most of the players that otherwise would have developed in Utica were promoted to the Canucks as a result of dire need, or they simply were ready to play in the NHL. (Horvat, Boeser, Hutton, Stecher, Petterson, Virtanen and Gaudette). The canucks were a bad team, and desparately needed these players to play right away.

 

There are good stories as well. Players that developed in Utica: Brendan Gaunce, Zack MacEwen, Guillaume Brisebois, Ashton Sautner, Alex Biega, Jalen Chatfield and Thatcher Demko.

 

 

And Markstrom's year in Utica was huge for him. He carried the Comets to the Calder Cup final and Travis Green learned to trust him so they trade Niulsson and go with Marky and voila.  Virtanen also had an important year in Utica, and Baertschi an important stint in the playoff run that solidified his place in the organization.  And Goldobin got religion in Utica under Cull I would say. 

[hobart16]

On 3/6/2019 at 4:10 PM, Alflives said:

He was elite in Sweden, when leading his team to promotion.  Maybe, the restraints placed upon him were too restrictive to allow him to be elite in Utica?  I think that's the question.  These elite guys don't think the game; they play the game.  Maybe Dahlen was doing too much thinking, because he was trying to fit into a system that restricted his creativity?

Was he really? I don't know about his Swedish career, but if you saw him in person you would be shocked that he is making a living as a professional athlete. Very small. Watching him play he is quick enough I guess, and definitely has some skill, but I would be very surprised to see him have an NHL career.  If a coach is trying to win a game and can't decide whether or not to put you or Carter Bancks in to win a game, you aren't looking at the NHL any time soon. But these young guys are hard to figure. 

 

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Note the bolded and particularly the underlined.

 

That IS how you develop players FYI. Same as on the parent club, you must show yourself to be a better option than vets on the roster. You need to act, train and play like a pro (as those vets do) to do so.

 

Young players need to earn their playing time.

Hardly... Vets with less creativity is only there to learn what they know to the younger players. Not take their spot in games. Itvs probably a reason why it seems to take very long time for some players. Not that they aren't good but their development stifles due to wrong matching in games

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Hardly... Vets with less creativity is only there to learn what they know to the younger players. Not take their spot in games. Itvs probably a reason why it seems to take very long time for some players. Not that they aren't good but their development stifles due to wrong matching in games

Not hardly. You earn ice time by out working vets who's living depends on their play. That's how you build championship caliber players. You don't simply hand them unearned ice time. That's how you get Edmonton.

[Timråfan]

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Not hardly. You earn ice time by out working vets who's living depends on their play. That's how you build championship caliber players. You don't simply hand them unearned ice time. That's how you get Edmonton.

That is maybe the culture in And around Vancouver. But not the same as ever other place... That is why I talk about better man managegement. You should be able to handle both a brut and a primadonna to get their value. 

Now, when it's only talk about earn their spot in a team that seems to be in the seventies, coachwise, only one type of players thrives. The brut/grunt ones. Get better man managegent coaches and maximize the investment the club have done. 

 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Timråfan said:

That is maybe the culture in And around Vancouver. But not the same as ever other place... That is why I talk about better man managegement. You should be able to handle both a brut and a primadonna to get their value. 

Now, when it's only talk about earn their spot in a team that seems to be in the seventies, coachwise, only one type of players thrives. The brut/grunt ones. Get better man managegent coaches and maximize the investment the club have done. 

 

Agree to disagree.

[Timråfan]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Agree to disagree.

Can you give some examples of great man management from either TG or JB? 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Can you give some examples of great man management from either TG or JB? 

Can I? Yes. Am I going to bother? Nope.

[Timråfan]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Can I? Yes. Am I going to bother? Nope.

So why bother to discuss one of the most imortant aspects of modern, successful clubs!? Nah, you just like to see the same grunts year after year hustling for the puck and miss the play off due to intelligent man magagement in other clubs. 

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So why bother to discuss one of the most imortant aspects of modern, successful clubs!? Nah, you just like to see the same grunts year after year hustling for the puck and miss the play off due to intelligent man magagement in other clubs. 

Yeah, I love to watch 'grunts' like Pettersson... 

[Timråfan]

15 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Yeah, I love to watch 'grunts' like Pettersson... 

When did Pettersson play a game with Utica?