The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks

[WHL rocks]

11 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

And that has still yet to be decided, let him play a game before you write him off... it's still too soon wadr. 

Who said I wrote him off. 

 

But no one who knows the game would believe O.J. was better pick than Tkachuk. 

 

Would CGY trade Tkachuk for OJ? Would TBL for Sarg?

 

Just like Vegas missed EP by taking Glass ahead of EP Canucks missed on O.J..

 

I don't know why you would argue this point. Makes no sense. I don't even think JB himself would try to make this argument. People would laugh at him if he did. 

 

 

 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, WHL rocks said:

Who said I wrote him off. 

 

But no one who knows the game would believe O.J. was better pick than Tkachuk. 

 

Would CGY trade Tkachuk for OJ? Would TBL for Sarg?

 

Just like Vegas missed EP by taking Glass ahead of EP Canucks missed on O.J..

Calling a guy a miss at 20 especially a defenseman is ridiculous. 

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, WHL rocks said:

It's not when you watch out of market games. He might make it as top 4 Dman I  a couple of years but that doesn't mean he was better puck than Tkachuck.

 

Tkachuck in CGY and Sergachev in TBL are miles ahead. 

 

Now JB isn't expected to always hit on picks. But Tkachuck was the player to take that draft. Sergachev maybe not because of Russian factor but he missed. 

 

 

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[cuporbust]

4 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

BRING BACK THE MINUS!!!!!

 

 

Dahlen has an entitlement problem,

 

Palmu is the longest.of shots and Trymakin never played a game in Utica.  

 

We have had two ROTY level players on our roster right now in the past two years, Hughes is going to sign asap and Gaudette has basically graduated Utica.  

 

OJ is injured.  Nothing to to do.wirh Utica.  

 

So basically a 21 y/o second rounder is on his third organization and has done very little at the AHL level and that's an organizational problem???????

 

Palmu wasnt good enough to get playing time and went back to Europe and we have a crisis!!!!!!!!!!

 

Trymakin never played in the AHL... WTF man!!!!!!!

 

 

&^@# we have some lemmings on this board.... can we get an IQ test to join for now on please.... 

 

Shirokov, McCann, Gaunce , Jensen,  Shroeder, Hodgson,  Grabner , Virtanen. Cassels all good examples of wasted talent for us . Not a good track record. Lemmings is right . And those are the names off the top of my head . 

 

Those are guys that either developed under expectation,  or thrived once they left here ( Grabner). 

 

Gaudette was a 5th round pick so i guess palmu is under skilled because is his draft position right ? Lol

[cuporbust]

On 3/6/2019 at 11:53 AM, timberz21 said:

When did Palmu, a 6th rounder, became a top end prospect?  Did I miss something.

 

Tryamkin refused to play in the AHL!!!  How is that the Comets' fault???

 

Go around the league and probably 20+ teams will have the same observations, comments, as the Canucks.  We are not alone and we are not an isolated case. 

 

With that said...our case is not that bad either.  First, because of our lack of depth and prospects from 2011-17, guys like Bo, EP, Boeser, Stetcher, Virtanen barely saw any AHL (could add Gaudette to the mix also).    Teams like Tampa and Nashville, have the luxury of having top end prospect play and dominate in the AHL because their NHL team is so strong and can be patient.  Our depth is so bad, that our best prospects make the jump rightaway in the NHL, skewing the numbers for Utica.  Juolevi played junior and Finland before being injured this year.  Again how is that Utica's fault.   We also drafted players like Boeser, Hughes and Lockwood who spent their developping years in the NCAA instead of the AHL.  If our AHL team would produced 2-3 star players every year, we would be a Dynasty.  Can't turn them all into Wayne Gretzky.

 

I would agree that our AHL development is average, but it has stabilized since moving to Utica.  Our stint in Chicago did not help our development system.  But again, our prospect since 2013 have been pretty thin, can't turn water into wine.

Around the same time that Gaudette , a 5th rounder did. Ur round selection argument is hilarious. 

[WHL rocks]

20 minutes ago, Baggins said:

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Lol

So we should have took glass over EP?

[Baggins]

34 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Lol

So we should have took glass over EP?

Great prospect. Best player we could have taken at that spot in long run - only time will tell. I'm not one for bold predictions. 

[Phat Fingers]

1 hour ago, cuporbust said:

? Lol

Lol...

 

 

Your either a really funny guy having a laugh or not very smart.  I really mean that.  

1 hour ago, cuporbust said:

Shirokov, McCann, Gaunce , Jensen,  Shroeder, Hodgson,  Grabner , Virtanen. Cassels all good examples of wasted talent for us . Not a good track record. Lemmings is right . And those are the names off the top of my head . 

 

Those are guys that either developed under expectation,  or thrived once they left here ( Grabner). 

 

Gaudette was a 5th round pick so i guess palmu is under skilled because is his draft position right

This is either the very dumbest of arguements or damn hilarious.  

 

Here is why....

 

1  Your post is about Utica in Crisis yet a majority of the players you brought up never played there.  

 

2 Most of the players on that list either never made the NHL or flamed out ( Hodgson no pun intended).  Most were drafted by Gillis and were never very good.  We could add more like Alex Stojonov, Patty White, Josh Holden and hundreds more.  FYI, not every prospect makes it... lol.

 

Grabner, McCann and Virt (Gaunce too...) are other exceptions because they are active players who were either fully developed in our system or partially which completely disupts your premise.  So thank you for beating yourself in your own arguement.

 

3    Gaudette and Palmu were low draft picks and ...... what?  That Gaudette beat the odds is fantastic and statistically unlikely.  Palmu is still a Canucks prospect and I dont recall hearing him say he will never come back.  But he is a long shot at best.  He couldn't crack the Utica roster. 

 

Are we giving out participation medals or trying to build a cup champion caliber team?  

 

Lol indeed.  

 

 

[canucksnihilist]

This whole thead is just hot air.

 

utica sucks cause there arent enough quality prospects.  That hurts development - obviously.  End of thread....

 

So wait a few more drafts and it solves itself.

[canuck73_3]

53 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

This whole thead is just hot air.

 

utica sucks cause there arent enough quality prospects.  That hurts development - obviously.  End of thread....

 

So wait a few more drafts and it solves itself.

They're getting there but it's a stretch to expect the cupboards to fill from empty in 5 years. 

[timberz21]

9 hours ago, cuporbust said:

Around the same time that Gaudette , a 5th rounder did. Ur round selection argument is hilarious. 

One is playing in the NHL and the other got sent back to Finland...your affirmation of Palmu being a top end prospect is hilarious.

 

Both made their AHL debut this year...yet you blame the organization for Palmu, but you won't give them credit for Gaudette.  You can't have it both ways.

[189lb enforcers?]

13 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

Who said I wrote him off. 

 

But no one who knows the game would believe O.J. was better pick than Tkachuk. 

 

Would CGY trade Tkachuk for OJ? Would TBL for Sarg?

 

Just like Vegas missed EP by taking Glass ahead of EP Canucks missed on O.J..

 

I don't know why you would argue this point. Makes no sense. I don't even think JB himself would try to make this argument. People would laugh at him if he did. 

 

 

 

To not concede this point is why the word fan is used to describe those fanatical about their beloved sports team. 

 

There are posters here who will still defend that #5 pick when OJ is compared to MT. ... No, defend isn’t the right word, it’s something emotion-based. I don’t know what it is. Zealot? 

 

That’s an example of being so fanatical, that you’re nuts, which is dogmatic in the same way or place the ‘soccer mom’ stereotype comes from or how people defend religion and politics. 

 

There’s more a stake in the debate here for these fanatics, it’s like their ego or existence is tied to conceding the point in a debate. They’re rather spin it with a futuristic, hypothetical optimism in place of what, in this case, has long been star-NHLer MT’s brilliance, compared to OJ, a prospect. 

 

This is the CDC that I know. 

[189lb enforcers?]

8 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

They're getting there but it's a stretch to expect the cupboards to fill from empty in 5 years. 

Why?

 

Qualify this, with how it directly relates to the cellar-dwelling Canucks’s case since JB got here, but don’t build any straw men to boringly counter, because I don’t think you can. 

 

Instead, perhaps you can restate your position in a way that doesn’t postulate that rebuilding a prospect pool within 5 years is all that unlikely in the NHL, never mind, ‘a stretch’. 

[TheRealistOptimist]

There's so much I want to say but I don't know where I want to start. 

I guess we'll start with Dahlen's comments on Utica/Utica coaches, because I think a lot of people are overlooking what he said (through the translation) and their misconstruing what his point was. 
 

He basically stated that he was so concerned about making mistakes and being punished for them, that it was affecting his confidence. Playing like this was not fun for him and he doesn't like being coached/developed like that. (That first part sounded a lot like what Goldobin has experienced in the NHL) 

 

Dahlen's issues don't appear to be work ethic related. Coaching is a difficult thing, you have 23 different personalities on a team. Coaches should probably try and get to know each player, so they can try to learn how best they can get their messages across to them. However I think professional sports do a bad job at this. I think professional sports teams acquire players (mostly young and often naive), give them structure and only a little direction, yet largely expect them to have the "mature" mindset of understanding the opportunity that they have been given (getting paid to play) and what they have to do and then just expecting them to do it. I believe they do this a lot without clear and direct instruction of what needs to be done to accomplish the things the teams are looking for. With no clear instruction, I find this is probably why many players don't make the "big leagues" in any sport, I think most players just believe, I got drafted, I'll eventually get there. 

I will preface this by stating that I do not know the level of communication between management and each of the prospects. However to tie this back to Utica, I think this could be a reason why players like Palmu and Dahlen have had some complaints. I think each of these 1st year AHL'ers Palmu, Dahlen, Lind and Gadjovich probably came into this season expecting prominent top 6/9 roles in Utica and that they would be playing lots and counted on to score, I think that's also what the fans expected. I think each were probably taken a back when they were hit with the reality, that they were playing sparingly and in limited roles early in the season (at least from what I can tell). Palmu voiced his concern and both sides agreed Finland might be the best spot for him the rest of the season. Dahlen started producing more/getting more opportunites (chicken and the egg argument here), but apparently didn't approve of the coaches methods of coaching, this led to the trade, but you better believe that if the Canucks still thought he was a A level prospect they wouldn't have dealt him. Meanwhile Lind and Gadjovich have plugged away and slowly earned more playing time and signifant roles. 

I don't think it's a coincident that the two players (Palmu and Dahlen) who have had some negative comments about the coaching/management in Utica are Europeans. This is not meant to crap on European players by any means though. I think with players having more and more success at younger ages in the NHL and size not being as big of an issue, more players (of all nationalities) are feeling like their opportunity to play in the NHL should be sooner than later. So, I imagine for European players when they are not getting the opportunity they feel they deserve, instead of sticking it out, I think it's easier for them to decide they are going to go play in a Top European league. There they can play more, maybe earn more money and be closer to home, until the team is willing to give them the opportunity they feel they deserve. It's almost a way of exercising more power. I'm all for more player empowerment, it's similar to the way NCAA players force their way into the lineups at the end of seasons to burn that first year off their entry level deals

As for Jim Benning, based on comments he's made I believe the Canucks are now about to try and create a Detroit Red Wings model and if anything try and over marinate their prospects in the AHL before calling them up. I will say, I am not necessarily the biggest fan of what seems to be stifling creativity in order to play a hard 200ft game, but you do have to be able to help keep the puck out of the net.

 

Ps. Sounds like Dahlen was getting similar treatment to what Goldobin has got in the NHL. Reports have mentioned Goldy may not be a fan of this coaching style either and it has affected his confidence at times, but it's given me a lot more respect for him and his willingness to stick it out. We'll see what this offseason holds for him, but the last few games he seems to be playing more like Green is looking for and it shows. 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

Some kids don’t have the constitution to be professional hockey players, at least in the NHL ranks, which includes those developmental leagues used as the farm system. 

 

Some kids just don’t have what it takes to survive the training. 

Military training, medical school, etc.

It’s all the same. 

 

Its that simple. No essay needed here.

 

Bye Doll’en.

Mama’s waiting at home where you can just be yourself and be happy.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

To not concede this point is why the word fan is used to describe those fanatical about their beloved sports team. 

 

There are posters here who will still defend that #5 pick when OJ is compared to MT. ... No, defend isn’t the right word, it’s something emotion-based. I don’t know what it is. Zealot? 

 

That’s an example of being so fanatical, that you’re nuts, which is dogmatic in the same way or place the ‘soccer mom’ stereotype comes from or how people defend religion and politics. 

 

There’s more a stake in the debate here for these fanatics, it’s like their ego or existence is tied to conceding the point in a debate. They’re rather spin it with a futuristic, hypothetical optimism in place of what, in this case, has long been star-NHLer MT’s brilliance, compared to OJ, a prospect. 

 

This is the CDC that I know. 

Not going to speak for other CDC'ers but while MT is certainly a very productive NHL player and, at this point anyway, 'better' (being productive in the NHL after all) I have to be honest, I never really liked the guy and from the sounds of what I've heard, neither did Canuck management/scouts. Something about his attitude/personality rubs me the wrong way. And character is also a trait you draft for not just ability. And that's not to say he's not a hard worker etc but just like his old man or guys like Kesler, hard work or not, they have that air of 'me first' about them. Which can certainly serve them well but it's not necessarily in the team's best interest. No denying he's a good hockey player though, just as he was at the draft. I just haven't ever particularly liked him.

 

As was OJ at the time of the draft (and still is). If you take OJ's injury setbacks out of the equation, I'd still personally draft him ahead of MT knowing at the draft he was always going to take longer (and without the gift of hindsight re: the injuries). IMO, he's still going to be a hell of a D man for us (assuming he can get/stay healthy and catch back up on his development). He's been a hell of a good D at every level. Either that or I probably would have taken Keller...or if I could use the gift of hindsight, McAvoy (a guy I'm sure about seven or eight other GM's wish they'd taken as well).

 

All that really speaks to is that while scouting is certainly improved, it's far from an exact science. Even in the top 10 where it's arguably 'easiest'. That and there's no crystal ball that tells you one guy's going to have annoying injury issues during his development. 

 

So no, it's not about ego or conceding a point. I'm perfectly happy to admit MT's a good player. Still don't like him. Still happy to have OJ. Or would happily travel back in time and whisper 'McAvoy' in Benning's ear  Personally, I think all the MT talk on CDC says more about the guys who can't let the spilled milk of the team not drafting 'their guy'  go. The team didn't like him and likely were never going to draft him. Get over it.

[D-Money]

21 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Not going to speak for other CDC'ers but while MT is certainly a very productive NHL player and, at this point anyway, 'better' (being productive in the NHL after all) I have to be honest, I never really liked the guy and from the sounds of what I've heard, neither did Canuck management/scouts. Something about his attitude/personality rubs me the wrong way. And character is also a trait you draft for not just ability. And that's not to say he's not a hard worker etc but just like his old man or guys like Kesler, hard work or not, they have that air of 'me first' about them. Which can certainly serve them well but it's not necessarily in the team's best interest. No denying he's a good hockey player though, just as he was at the draft. I just haven't ever particularly liked him.

 

As was OJ at the time of the draft (and still is). If you take OJ's injury setbacks out of the equation, I'd still personally draft him ahead of MT knowing at the draft he was always going to take longer (and without the gift of hindsight re: the injuries). IMO, he's still going to be a hell of a D man for us (assuming he can get/stay healthy and catch back up on his development). He's been a hell of a good D at every level. Either that or I probably would have taken Keller...or if I could use the gift of hindsight, McAvoy (a guy I'm sure about seven or eight other GM's wish they'd taken as well).

 

All that really speaks to is that while scouting is certainly improved, it's far from an exact science. Even in the top 10 where it's arguably 'easiest'. That and there's no crystal ball that tells you one guy's going to have annoying injury issues during his development. 

 

So no, it's not about ego or conceding a point. I'm perfectly happy to admit MT's a good player. Still don't like him. Still happy to have OJ. Or would happily travel back in time and whisper 'McAvoy' in Benning's ear  Personally, I think all the MT talk on CDC says more about the guys who can't let the spilled milk of the team not drafting 'their guy'  go. The team didn't like him and likely were never going to draft him. Get over it.

I live in Calgary. Tkachuk isn't a good player, he's a STAR player. Even at his young age, he's viewed as the heart of that team, and considered just as valuable to the franchise as Gaudreau or Giordano.

 

Vancouver desperately needed to start picking D-men, so I was OK with the Joulevi selection at the time. However, if you're saying that even with the benefit of hindsight you'd pass on Tkachuk, then you are most certainly in the group that @189lb enforcers? described: "you're nuts".

 

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, D-Money said:

I live in Calgary. Tkachuk isn't a good player, he's a STAR player. Even at his young age, he's viewed as the heart of that team, and considered just as valuable to the franchise as Gaudreau or Giordano.

 

Vancouver desperately needed to start picking D-men, so I was OK with the Joulevi selection at the time. However, if you're saying that even with the benefit of hindsight you'd pass on Tkachuk, then you are most certainly in the group that @189lb enforcers? described: "you're nuts".

 

Againi, I'm not denying he's a good (or star) player. I always said he was a good player at the draft as well. But It's ok to not like players. I don't like Marchand either...though he has toned down the childish nonsense this year. And I'd actually rather have him on my team than Tkachuck as well  Seems more of a 'team' guy (even if a douche nozzle). YMMV.

 

And again, either way, it's crying over spilled milk.

[canuck73_3]

3 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Why?

 

Qualify this, with how it directly relates to the cellar-dwelling Canucks’s case since JB got here, but don’t build any straw men to boringly counter, because I don’t think you can. 

 

Instead, perhaps you can restate your position in a way that doesn’t postulate that rebuilding a prospect pool within 5 years is all that unlikely in the NHL, never mind, ‘a stretch’. 

Because we literally had nothing But Bo, Gaunce and Hutton as good prospects when JB arrived. 

 

A good GM and scouting team can hit on 2 maybe 3 picks per draft. Drafting still isn't an exact science.

 

rebuilding and entire franchise with only 3 good prospects in the cupboard is not as easy as you make it sound wadr. 

 

No matter how much the anti-Benning crowd tries to deny it the team is improving. What we need now moving forward is some toughness, a top 6 winger, and a top 4 defenseman. Myers, Ferland, + a winger would be a good start this off season. 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Because we literally had nothing But Bo, Gaunce and Hutton as good prospects when JB arrived. 

 

A good GM and scouting team can hit on 2 maybe 3 picks per draft. Drafting still isn't an exact science.

 

rebuilding and entire franchise with only 3 good prospects in the cupboard is not as easy as you make it sound wadr. 

 

No matter how much the anti-Benning crowd tries to deny it the team is improving. What we need now moving forward is some toughness, a top 6 winger, and a top 4 defenseman. Myers, Ferland, + a winger would be a good start this off season. 

Personally, I'm pro JB.  I'm anti trading away picks during a rebuild.