The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks

[canuck73_3]

52 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Is there really a crisis or an issue?

 

Markstrom, Baertschi, Goldobin, Gaudette, and Demko all seemed to develop and transition just fine.  MacEwan, Brisebois, and Sautner all seem to be on the cusp as well.

 

Utica prides itself on having a competitive winning culture.  Kids will have to EARN their spots rather than having it gifted to them.

 

I’m not sure if I really see a problem here.

2 players didn't have a good time so obviously we should ignore the 10+ that didn't and straight panic... 

[Smashian Kassian]

 

 

 

2

On 3/14/2019 at 10:35 PM, Baggins said:

The answer is right there. You don't give up all your picks, but you can't put all your eggs in that waiting game either. Particularly when your completely lacking youth to rebuild with from the get go.

 

There's another quote you omitted: "We had depth at center and to add a top four defenseman that's young that's something we felt we needed to do". 

 

I get the idea but your in that position anyways, why compound the problem?

 

I don't get waiting till you have a Pettersson to hold onto your picks. Again, why not draft so you have complimentary players coming up as support when you get Pettersson. Now we are waiting on Lind/Gadjovich/Woo/previously Dahlen/exc. who need more time & are no guarantees. I can understand gambling on a Baertschi from time to time, but not trade away picks every year for the next project/accelerant. 

 

They thought Gudbranson was a top 4 D which he wasn't. As much as the amateur side of this regime has been great, the pro side has been largely terrible. Guddy was a target they paid a premium for, at a time when he wasn't going to turn things around anyways, and it hasn't worked. 

 

They thought they had depth at center. Which would have been Henrik/Sutter/Horvat/Vey. But is that long term depth? Jared McCann was a young player, & a valuable asset.

 

Imagine having him right now to use as a trade chip to get a top 4 D or a scoring winger. (when we could actually use it one of those things) 

 

 

[canuck73_3]

4 hours ago, Juice-03 said:

“Top end draft picks”

 

1. Bo Horvat - little to no AHL time. Had the tools to be an effective bottom-6 guy with the luxury of developing his offence game in his early years. Didn’t really require much seasoning

 

2. Jake Virtanen - We ruined his first year of developement. In my eyes this is the only recent “top end” pick we could have managed differently and had a better outcome. Should have left him in the WHL for 1 more season. Travis Green took him from Zack Kassian 2.0 to where he is today. I feel he can be a consistent 20 goal, in your face power-forward that are rare to come by.

 

3. Brock Boeser - We managed this admirably. We let him season in North Dakota and arrive into the NHL with sky high confidence. Boeser says it himself that those first 9 games were instrumental in his . With him taking the NCAA route there was no time for the A. 

 

4. Olli Juolevi - looked great to start the year in the A. Injuries have led to an up and down couple of developement years. I still feel he is going to be a reliable top 4 defender with top 2 upside. 

 

5. Elias Petterson -  International developement route. He is a special case for sure. I remember watching him in developement camp and how apparent it was he was MILES ahead of the others. SHL to NHL lock and we all knew this. 

 

6. Quinn Hughes - I believe we are taking the same route as Brock Boeser with this one. He could have started the year here but went back to college got stronger and I feel it’s going to pay major dividends. I think Quinn is going to be a game changer for us on the back end. Much like Petterson up front. Again no AHL opportunity 

 

 

if you you are referring to picks from rounds 2-7, we really only started to accumulate these after 2014. So far we have Briesbois, Demko, Tryamkin,  Gaudette, Jasek, Lind, Gadjovich, Woo, Madden. 

 

Fact is these players take longer to develop. Look around the league these players don’t jump into the league after a few seasons. Picks from round 2-7 usually take 3-5 years. We saw Briesbois, Gaudette, Demko this year. They all look promising. Guys taking different paths NCAA , SHL etc are becoming more popular. 

 

Benning and Co. have a plan in place and let the man execute. The mans got a  good drafting track record. Realistically speaking this team is going to be competing for a playoff spot next year. Mark my words. 

The reason Jake didn't go back to Jr. was Calgary was an utter disaster and we couldn't play him in the AHL either. 

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

People made up the disaster excuse because Virtanen wasn't producing like expected.  How were they a disaster?  They were a top team

They only finished 3rd in their division and with that record lost in the 1st round dropped off ever since. There was enough smoke on that fire that it was considered Jake be better off with our roster. 

[Juice-03]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

The reason Jake didn't go back to Jr. was Calgary was an utter disaster and we couldn't play him in the AHL either. 

So what your saying is a year of gooning up the streets of downtown Vancouver helped his development?

 

Would have been better off for the Canucks to step in and ask for him to be traded from the hitmen. Or heck playing out the season away from the parties and buddies at home would have done him good. 

 

If you don’t already know, Jake’s biggest issue in those years was his conditioning. 

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, Juice-03 said:

So what your saying is a year of gooning up the streets of downtown Vancouver helped his development?

 

Would have been better off for the Canucks to step in and ask for him to be traded from the hitmen. Or heck playing out the season away from the parties and buddies at home would have done him good. 

 

If you don’t already know, Jake’s biggest issue in those years was his conditioning. 

Not saying it helped just saying they felt Calgary wouldn't either, going to Utica the following season did help. 

[Juice-03]

1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

Not saying it helped just saying they felt Calgary wouldn't either, going to Utica the following season did help. 

Hence if you read my post, I said “Travis green took him from Zach Kassian 2.0 to where he is today”. 

 

Read before you get trigger happy. 

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, Juice-03 said:

Hence if you read my post, I said “Travis green took him from Zach Kassian 2.0 to where he is today”. 

 

Read before you get trigger happy. 

Didn't get trigger happy just stated the reason for him not going back to Jr. 

[Juice-03]

1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

Didn't get trigger happy just stated the reason for him not going back to Jr. 

Alright so we can agree to disagree. 

[Hindustan Smyl]

5 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

2 players didn't have a good time so obviously we should ignore the 10+ that didn't and straight panic... 

Lol.  Exactly.  

 

If people want to act like braying sackless panicking donkeys, then hockeysfuture/Canucks is the best place to be.  

[SingleThorn]

4 hours ago, Juice-03 said:

So what your saying is a year of gooning up the streets of downtown Vancouver helped his development?

 

Would have been better off for the Canucks to step in and ask for him to be traded from the hitmen. Or heck playing out the season away from the parties and buddies at home would have done him good. 

 

If you don’t already know, Jake’s biggest issue in those years was his conditioning. 

Bolded #1. I believe they tried to encourage a WHL trade. Treading on thin ice when you start trying to push your own agenda onto an org that you have no part of. ( I think the Hitmen have Flames links, not too sure on that. )

 

Bolded #2. Did we know that conditioning was an issue at the time or is Capt Hindsight entering the discussion ? I only recall the condition issues showing themselves in year two !

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

I get the idea but your in that position anyways, why compound the problem?

 

I don't get waiting till you have a Pettersson to hold onto your picks. Again, why not draft so you have complimentary players coming up as support when you get Pettersson. Now we are waiting on Lind/Gadjovich/Woo/previously Dahlen/exc. who need more time & are no guarantees. I can understand gambling on a Baertschi from time to time, but not trade away picks every year for the next project/accelerant. 

 

They thought Gudbranson was a top 4 D which he wasn't. As much as the amateur side of this regime has been great, the pro side has been largely terrible. Guddy was a target they paid a premium for, at a time when he wasn't going to turn things around anyways, and it hasn't worked. 

 

They thought they had depth at center. Which would have been Henrik/Sutter/Horvat/Vey. But is that long term depth? Jared McCann was a young player, & a valuable asset.

 

Imagine having him right now to use as a trade chip to get a top 4 D or a scoring winger. (when we could actually use it one of those things) 

 

 

No single player is going to 'turn things around' early in a rebuild.

 

McCann was traded early in the rebuild. A position of depth moved for a position lacking depth. More often than not that's why trades happen. Being early in the rebuild there would be many more centers to come. Even looking at it from that point in time Horvat looked to be a lock as a 2C. Many here were already declaring him our future 1C but my opinion was he'd cap out at a poor mans 1C or elite 2C. Is McCann a 1C? My view of McCann at the time was top 6 and we'd need better than Horvat/McCann as a 1 - 2 punch down the middle. Then of course there was talk of an attitude problem with him. Such things always fall to the wayside after a trade. Moving him didn't bother me at all. Particularly moving him for a big young d-man.

 

That said I tire of "we traded a valuable asset". You have to trade something to get something. How often do you see the typical proposal here of three spare parts (unpopular players) getting a quality player in return? What I call EA syndrome. Gudbranson was a big top 4 d-man in Florida. He had just led all their D in ice time in the playoffs. Like him or not, he was a valuable young asset when the trade mas made. 

 

Btw, McCann was part of a package that got Florida two expiring contracts and a couple of lower draft picks. You wouldn't get a young top 4 d-man even now without adding to the deal. Here's what McCann + Bjudstad got Florida:

 

Both Brassard, 31, and Sheahan, 27, are set to become unrestricted free agents at season's end. Neither center is having a particularly strong season, as Brassard has collected just 15 points, while Sheahan has only nine. Sheahan is not known for his offensive abilities, but Brassard has been a consistent 40-to-50 point player over his 12-year career.

 

So Florida got a couple of cap dumps and three draft picks in a deal that included McCann plus Bjudstad. And we all know taking on cap dumps inflates the return (the draft picks). 

[aGENT]

On 3/16/2019 at 12:26 AM, Smashian Kassian said:

They thought Gudbranson was a top 4 D which he wasn't. As much as the amateur side of this regime has been great, the pro side has been largely terrible. Guddy was a target they paid a premium for, at a time when he wasn't going to turn things around anyways, and it hasn't worked. 

Top 4 D in FLA before we traded for him, top 4D in PIT after we traded him away.

 

Should he own some responsibility for his poor play while here? Certainly. Does he seem to be able to perform at a top 4 level - with a laundry list of intangibles to boot - elsewhere, when properly supported...Ayyup.

 

And I'd hardly call a middle 6 C and a 2nd a 'premium'. It's not like we moved Horvat and a 1st here.

[JoshuaGuy]

This fan base is hilarious. We iced an almost competitive team most of the year, with home grown talent leading the way, and now we're on track for a high draft pick again. Feels like almost everyone should be happy with that. 

[Timråfan]

Ok, I just found out that Green coached Utica for a long time. That means he got ties to both agents and players. The reason to his illogic use of players may be caused by those ties. 

[Baggins]

9 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Ok, I just found out that Green coached Utica for a long time. That means he got ties to both agents and players. The reason to his illogic use of players may be caused by those ties. 

Since when do coaches deal with agents? Agents don't call the coach, they call the GM.

[Timråfan]

31 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Since when do coaches deal with agents? Agents don't call the coach, they call the GM

I would love to see the world through your rose tinted glasses. 

Agent makes money of players and players in the right environment is more successful. The coach pick the team... 

[Baggins]

21 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I would love to see the world through your rose tinted glasses. 

Agent makes money of players and players in the right environment is more successful. The coach pick the team... 

Are you suggesting agents are bribing coaches to play their clients? I don't see how they could have any other power over them. Even then the coach still needs to answer to his GM.

[Timråfan]

22 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Are you suggesting agents are bribing coaches to play their clients? I don't see how they could have any other power over them. Even then the coach still needs to answer to his GM.

Bribing is such a bad word. A few friends have a good time together.

Answer to his GM...  A coach can make players look good. 

[Toews]

10 hours ago, aGENT said:

Top 4 D in FLA before we traded for him, top 4D in PIT after we traded him away.

 

Should he own some responsibility for his poor play while here? Certainly. Does he seem to be able to perform at a top 4 level - with a laundry list of intangibles to boot - elsewhere, when properly supported...Ayyup.

 

And I'd hardly call a middle 6 C and a 2nd a 'premium'. It's not like we moved Horvat and a 1st here.

He only into the top 4 in his final season in Florida and that too because Willie got hurt otherwise he was a #5 or lower on the depth chart every season he played there.