wai_lai416 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 So why is the leafs not punished for cap circumventing? They take on Clarkson's contract just so they can get max LTIR on their other player.. if the Canucks would have done this $&!#. There be a league investigation and prolly draft pick docked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 55 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: So why is the leafs not punished for cap circumventing? They take on Clarkson's contract just so they can get max LTIR on their other player.. if the Canucks would have done this $&!#. There be a league investigation and prolly draft pick docked They will also have Dermott and Hyman on LTIR to start the year as well. But when those guys come back they will have to move someone even if they get Marner on the contract they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 45 minutes ago, Aspie said: They will also have Dermott and Hyman on LTIR to start the year as well. But when those guys come back they will have to move someone even if they get Marner on the contract they want. Yes but they only got Clarkson coz they wanted max relief on LTIR on Horton. Like an extra million. So still loopholes and circumvention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said: Yes but they only got Clarkson coz they wanted max relief on LTIR on Horton. Like an extra million. So still loopholes and circumvention Not really. They may be able to spend to $92 million now but Horton and Clarkson still count toward the cap. The extra money they gained was mostly from not having to bury Sparks in the minors with his one-way deal. The leafs are still praying Marner signs for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Aspie said: Not really. They may be able to spend to $92 million now but Horton and Clarkson still count toward the cap. The extra money they gained was mostly from not having to bury Sparks in the minors with his one-way deal. The leafs are still praying Marner signs for less. nah if they kept spark and sent him down they won't reach the upper limit to get the 100% LTIR relief on horton, but by picking up clarkson they are guranteed 100% LTIR relief from Horton and Clarkson. basically they have to buy clarkson's contract for extra LTIR space it's like a difference of 700k ish.. but when they are penny pinching to sign marner they'll need it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-marlies/2019/7/24/20708683/maple-leafs-sign-depth-gravel-agostino-shore-aberg-gaudet-wilson-kossila Maple Leafs sign so much depth, we can’t list it all in this headline 25 comments It’s a July news bonanza as the Leafs add all sorts of players. 809 × 748 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Ghost Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, oldnews said: https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-marlies/2019/7/24/20708683/maple-leafs-sign-depth-gravel-agostino-shore-aberg-gaudet-wilson-kossila Maple Leafs sign so much depth, we can’t list it all in this headline 25 comments It’s a July news bonanza as the Leafs add all sorts of players. 809 × 748 Plan the parade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Three of them were actually over league minimum. Barely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tower102 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 11 hours ago, wai_lai416 said: nah if they kept spark and sent him down they won't reach the upper limit to get the 100% LTIR relief on horton, but by picking up clarkson they are guranteed 100% LTIR relief from Horton and Clarkson. basically they have to buy clarkson's contract for extra LTIR space it's like a difference of 700k ish.. but when they are penny pinching to sign marner they'll need it How does that work? I always assumed if a player went on LTIR their cap automatically did not count against the cap (or their cap hit would be allowed to go up in an equal value). How does having a second player on LTIR affect the first? Why is the LTIR relief on Horton not 100% already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 17 hours ago, Aspie said: Not really. They may be able to spend to $92 million now but Horton and Clarkson still count toward the cap. The extra money they gained was mostly from not having to bury Sparks in the minors with his one-way deal. The leafs are still praying Marner signs for less. one way deal means nothing relative to the cap - it simply indicates he makes the same salary whether he plays in the N or AHL. His cap hit was 750k ie under a million = burying him in the minors costs nothing against the cap - but replacing that roster spot with another player leaves extremely little room over league minimum to save anything at all. Vegas can waive and bury Sparks and it costs them not a dollar towards the cap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, oldnews said: one way deal means nothing relative to the cap - it simply indicates he makes the same salary whether he plays in the N or AHL. His cap hit was 750k ie under a million = burying him in the minors costs nothing against the cap - but replacing that roster spot with another player leaves extremely little room over league minimum to save anything at all. Vegas can waive and bury Sparks and it costs them not a dollar towards the cap. Nevermind, misread. Edited July 25, 2019 by Aspie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aspie said: I don’t think you’re right about that. Canucks would have buried Eriksson in the minors already but there’s still a cap retention. From Capfriendly: What is a Buried Contract? Teams do not receive full cap relief when a player on a one-way NHL contract is reassigned to the American Hockey League, or is loaned to a team in another professional league. The players salary cap hit, minus the sum of the minimum NHL salary for the respective season and $375,000, still counts towards the team’s salary cap total. The cap hit relief is therefore equal to the minimum salary of the respective season + $375,000: 2014-15: $550,000 + $375,000 = $925,000 2015-16: $575,000 + $375,000 = $950,000 2016-17: $575,000 + $375,000 = $950,000 2017-18: $650,000 + $375,000 = $1,025,000 2018-19: $650,000 + $375,000 = $1,025,000 2019-20: $700,000 + $375,000 = $1,075,000 2020-21: $700,000 + $375,000 = $1,075,000 2021-22: $750,000 + $375,000 = $1,125,000 Did you read what you posted? The league minimum, plus 375 is subtracted. Eriksson is irrelevent - his cap hit is 8 times Sparks - whose cap hit is less than league minimum +375k. If Eriksson were buried, the Canucks would 'save' league minimum +375k - while the remainder would apply - because his contract exceeds that. Sparks' deal does not. The same applies in the case of the actual cap space the Canucks have to sign Boeser - it's not really 5.883 - you add the million that is cleared when one of the 14 guys signed are waived/assigned to Utica = they have closer to 7 million and enough imo for a bridge for Boeser. Edited July 25, 2019 by oldnews 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph. Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Tower102 said: How does that work? I always assumed if a player went on LTIR their cap automatically did not count against the cap (or their cap hit would be allowed to go up in an equal value). How does having a second player on LTIR affect the first? Why is the LTIR relief on Horton not 100% already? It's pretty complicated. I just went to CapFriendly (as it seems everyone uses it now) to see what they had for rules on LTIR stuff, and found this. I recommend skimming through it; it helped me understand better for sure. I had the impression for some reason that when a player goes onto LTIR, basically the deal was the team could replace him with a player of up to the same AAV. I didn't realize all the stuff about the salary pool; thought it was more of a one-player-down-one-player-up sort of thing. Looking at the Training-Camp equation stuff, it looks like they might not have to do this whole waiting until the first day of the season to sign him thing, too? It doesn't say whether two players are supposed to be factored into the ACSL, but assuming they are, I've got the Leaf's ACSL today at: ACSL = Team Cap Hit - LTIR Player's Cap Hit ACSL = 83, 659, 699 - 10, 550, 000 (Horton + Clarkson) ACSL = $73, 109, 699 Per that link: "The ACSL will always be less than or (in the optimal scenario) equal to the league upper limit (this season, $81.5M). The closer the ACSL is to the league upper limit, the greater the team will be able to exceed the upper limit." And so: 81, 500, 000 - 73, 109, 699 = $8, 390, 301 More from CF: "Once the team exceeds their ACSL, they start to use their relief pools. They can exceed the upper limit until they have exhausted the necessary relief pools. A rough estimation is as follows: Exceed value = ACSL + salary relief pool - league upper limit" Exceed Value = 73, 109, 699 + 10, 550, 000 - 81, 500, 000 Exceed Value = $2, 159, 699 What I gather is that the Leafs can theoretically sign Marner to an AAV of say $10, 550, 000 (their entire relief pool), and still have that $8, 390, 301 to spend this season. However that would be stupid af, as once Horton + Clarkson contracts expire that relief is gone and they must clear space to get below the regular limit (that's a helluva lot of space to clear). What I imagine they would rather do is continue to clear out ACSL space (of which they have $8, 390, 301) until they have enough to fit him under legitimately (probably another $3.5M+ considering what he's asking for), and then they won't have to trade him/Matthews/Tavares/Nylander and keep their insanely top-heavy lineup in tact after the coming season. That or trade for another dead-weight LTIR contract. * I'm no capologist so maybe I'm way off base here. I'll let the forum lawyers debate further if they want. Clarifications from those who know their CBA stuff is welcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 hours ago, mll said: This is the pressure point for Marner’s camp. If he holds out, his contract goes down. There is simply no money or way to clear money to sign him for more than what they have. There is really no negotiation at that point as it is a hard cap. He either signs for what is left, or sits out. It would likely result in a 1 year deal and then right back at negotiating a longer extension... because Marner isn’t going to sign for term to an artificially low AAV deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Provost said: This is the pressure point for Marner’s camp. If he holds out, his contract goes down. There is simply no money or way to clear money to sign him for more than what they have. There is really no negotiation at that point as it is a hard cap. He either signs for what is left, or sits out. It would likely result in a 1 year deal and then right back at negotiating a longer extension... because Marner isn’t going to sign for term to an artificially low AAV deal. Wow both you and capfriendly are wrong once a team places a player on ltir if the replacement player at the time makes less then the guy on LTIR then a team starts acquiring cap space. This is way teams at trade deadlines can have $20 million in free cap space. Edited July 25, 2019 by Arrow 1983 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said: Wow both you and capfriendly are wrong once a team places a player on ltir if the replacement player at the time makes less then the guy on LTIR then a team starts acquiring cap space. This is way teams at trade deadlines can have $20 million in free cap space. Holy crap, you are definitely just a troll. I have no idea how it gives you kicks to look foolish repeatedly. In the other thread you literally argued the opposite, quoting the relevant sections of the CBA that clearly show ca space isn’t accrued from unused LTIR space.... unlike regular cap space 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, oldnews said: Did you read what you posted? The league minimum, plus 375 is subtracted. Eriksson is irrelevent - his cap hit is 8 times Sparks - whose cap hit is less than league minimum +375k. If Eriksson were buried, the Canucks would 'save' league minimum +375k - while the remainder would apply - because his contract exceeds that. Sparks' deal does not. The same applies in the case of the actual cap space the Canucks have to sign Boeser - it's not really 5.883 - you add the million that is cleared when one of the 14 guys signed are waived/assigned to Utica = they have closer to 7 million and enough imo for a bridge for Boeser. Nevermind, misread. Edited July 25, 2019 by Aspie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, Aspie said: My point was Leafs would have paid to send Sparks to minors, it would not have cost nothing. $750k - $700k + $375k = $425k to bury Sparks in the minors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, Provost said: Holy crap, you are definitely just a troll. I have no idea how it gives you kicks to look foolish repeatedly. In the other thread you literally argued the opposite, quoting the relevant sections of the CBA that clearly show ca space isn’t accrued from unused LTIR space.... unlike regular cap space Your right I did quote it except there different examples Clarkson and Horton are never going to play well other players are they are different exemptions to the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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