Tyler Graovac | C

[canucklehead44]

21 hours ago, FaninMex said:

HAHAHA. I think you are dreaming. Rous - beags - Motte were one of the best 4th lines. Beags and Mott on the PK help so much. Then you have his work ethic and his leadership in the room. 

Remember the start of the season, it was our 3rd and 4th line that carried the team while Horvat and Pettersson lines tried to remember how to play hockey and make a pass. 

The season before last Beagle was used as a defensive centre and was statistically one of the worst players in the NHL 5 on 5. He had some PK utility but was still well below average (around the 30th percentile). Last year he he was matched up against bottom six players and underlying numbers improved massively yet he still had the lowest WAR value on the team, scored 1 goal in 30 games, and failed to drive play. 3 million dollars is a lot to pay a guy who is a liability. 

That said Tyler Motte was very good. He has massive penalty-killing value and has the ability to threaten on the counter attack. Not a great play driver but 6 goals in 24 games as a bottom six player is very impressive. And I don't believe that is a flash in the pan - his last 75 games (incl playoffs) he has scored 14 goals. A bottom 6 player who is fast, plays hard, can score 10-15 goals, kill penalties, and makes under 2 million per year is hugely valuable. Essentially Beagle is an example of how NOT to build a team, whereas Motte is quite the opposite.

Sutter quietly had a pretty good year - on pace for 17 goals, top faceoffs, solid PKer. Not worth the money but he at least provided some worth. 

[Honky Cat]

4 hours ago, aGENT said:

Beagle, Motte and Sutter were about the only guys who looked passable, with no preseason or practice time at the beginning of the year. 

 

'Carrying', might be a bit extreme but they're the only reason we didn't look WAY worse.

 

Beyond maybe Boeser, our top 6 kids we rely on to drive the bus, were awful, Miller was out (and looked mostly bad when he got back). Petey was stumbling everywhere and hitting posts, Hughes was a giveaway machine...

I think the coaching staff have to take the brunt of why the Canucks were awful in those first 3 weeks of the season.

Looking back to early last season,in our series against the Habs (under Julien). The Habs were a well oiled machine, and all the players clearly understood their roles. Conversely, the Canucks played like they were absolute strangers to each other. There was zero evidence of any structured system.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Honky Cat

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

I think the coaching staff have to take the brunt of why the Canucks were awful in those first 3 weeks of the season.

Looking back to early last season,in our series against the Habs (under Julien). The Habs were a well oiled machine, and all the players clearly understood their roles. Conversely, the Canucks played like they were absolute strangers to each other. There was zero evidence of any structured system.

I don't think it was just coaching/systems at all (though it certainly seems evident it was part of it).

 

We have a bunch of young, very green, kids expected to drive the bus here. Then they had no preseason and very little practice time the first month'ish. 

 

Add to that the combination of a bunch of new guys (Schmidt, Holtby, Hamonic, Hoglander etc) in pretty key roles, who likewise had no preseason/practice time AND new team/systems/partners etc (and in Hamonic's case, an added year of rust) expected to play with those green kids.

 

Hoglander was likely helped a lot in that he'd already been playing and was already largely up to speed/in game shape. But the rest were kinda &^@#ed.

 

Add to that the loss of stability/leadership etc from guys like Marky and Tanev moving on. That, coupled with Covid protocols basically nixing any ability for all these new, disparate pieces to actually get together and bond...

 

It wasn't just one thing that sunk this season for us, it was a storm of MANY things coming together, in a steaming pile of $&!#.

 

At least we get another good draft piece or two in what was otherwise, a throwaway year.

[FaninMex]

12 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

The season before last Beagle was used as a defensive centre and was statistically one of the worst players in the NHL 5 on 5. He had some PK utility but was still well below average (around the 30th percentile). Last year he he was matched up against bottom six players and underlying numbers improved massively yet he still had the lowest WAR value on the team, scored 1 goal in 30 games, and failed to drive play. 3 million dollars is a lot to pay a guy who is a liability. 

That said Tyler Motte was very good. He has massive penalty-killing value and has the ability to threaten on the counter attack. Not a great play driver but 6 goals in 24 games as a bottom six player is very impressive. And I don't believe that is a flash in the pan - his last 75 games (incl playoffs) he has scored 14 goals. A bottom 6 player who is fast, plays hard, can score 10-15 goals, kill penalties, and makes under 2 million per year is hugely valuable. Essentially Beagle is an example of how NOT to build a team, whereas Motte is quite the opposite.

Sutter quietly had a pretty good year - on pace for 17 goals, top faceoffs, solid PKer. Not worth the money but he at least provided some worth. 

 

 

Sometimes the statistics are wrong. There are a lot of variables to the stats about Beags that you are undoubtable not using. Here is my simple rebuff.

For example, Toronto had statistically one of the best forward groups and were favored by a whole lot of those statistics that you use. Yet....

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by FaninMex
Missed a word

[Ray_Cathode]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:21 AM, FaninMex said:

I have NHL.com. Wanna watch them again?

Remember how the team could not pass? That was the top two lines and the D. The 3rd lines and 4th lines came out skating. I know we lost quite a few but it was Beags and Sutter that came to the start of the season ready to play. Beags and Sutters' lines were the ones scoring the few goals. I think Sutter got his first hattrick at the start playing with JV and Mac. They were playing well together but Green being Green changed the lines trying to get Pettersson and Horvat to play hockey. He also played the top 2 lines too much.

I don’t need NHL.com to determine the value of Beagle, Roussel and Sutter. In a full season, between them, they scored 12 goals and 11 assists. Of those, Sutter had 9 of the goals. The three goals combined from Beagle and Roussel definitely carried us through the year. That adds up to 2 million per goal, which puts them in Eriksson territory. 
 

Don’t know if you know, but there is a difference between ‘coming out skating’ and playing actual productive hockey.

 

As for Sutter, his problem has been showing up to work. Over the past four years, the Canucks have played 289 games, Sutter has only showed up for 174 of them, which means he hasn’t showed up to work 40% of the time. That is not going to improve as he gets even older. Of course, there is also the fact more evident this year than most, that Sutter doesn’t care much for passing the puck and doesn’t make anyone on his line a better player, he leaves it up to them to make him look better. 

[FaninMex]

19 minutes ago, Ray_Cathode said:

I don’t need NHL.com to determine the value of Beagle, Roussel and Sutter. In a full season, between them, they scored 12 goals and 11 assists. Of those, Sutter had 9 of the goals. The three goals combined from Beagle and Roussel definitely carried us through the year. That adds up to 2 million per goal, which puts them in Eriksson territory. 
 

Don’t know if you know, but there is a difference between ‘coming out skating’ and playing actual productive hockey.

 

As for Sutter, his problem has been showing up to work. Over the past four years, the Canucks have played 289 games, Sutter has only showed up for 174 of them, which means he hasn’t showed up to work 40% of the time. That is not going to improve as he gets even older. Of course, there is also the fact more evident this year than most, that Sutter doesn’t care much for passing the puck and doesn’t make anyone on his line a better player, he leaves it up to them to make him look better. 

This is all wrong.

Eriksson was brought here for his Offensive skills which disappeared when he signed his contract here. He was supposed to play Top 6 minutes.

Beagle, Roussel and Sutter were brought here for their skills at stopping goals from going into our net whether 5 on 5 or in a PK role. They are not here to take the lead on the team in scoring. That is for others. Bottom 6 players tend to get hurt more because of the game that is expected of them. Sutter was an ironman on Pits but got injured a bunch when he came to the Canucks because of what was needed from him in those starting years. Notice to that he has been less injured as our team has been getting better as he has more help.

You and others are to hung up on goals when D is just as important, maybe more so in today's league. Look at the Leafs and Edmonton. They are built to score goals but cannot stop them from going into their own net and cannot win a series.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

I don’t need NHL.com to determine the value of Beagle, Roussel and Sutter. In a full season, between them, they scored 12 goals and 11 assists. Of those, Sutter had 9 of the goals. The three goals combined from Beagle and Roussel definitely carried us through the year. That adds up to 2 million per goal, which puts them in Eriksson territory. 
 

Don’t know if you know, but there is a difference between ‘coming out skating’ and playing actual productive hockey.

 

As for Sutter, his problem has been showing up to work. Over the past four years, the Canucks have played 289 games, Sutter has only showed up for 174 of them, which means he hasn’t showed up to work 40% of the time. That is not going to improve as he gets even older. Of course, there is also the fact more evident this year than most, that Sutter doesn’t care much for passing the puck and doesn’t make anyone on his line a better player, he leaves it up to them to make him look better. 

Couldn’t disagree more with you there.  
 

Looking at the scoring numbers is the most shallow way to judge defensive players. 
 

You think that Tampa cares that Goodrow only had 6 goals in 55 games this year? 

[aGENT]

4 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Couldn’t disagree more with you there.  
 

Looking at the scoring numbers is the most shallow way to judge defensive players. 
 

You think that Tampa cares that Goodrow only had 6 goals in 55 games this year? 

Or Montreal and Dannault's 5 goals?

[Bad_BOI_pete]

18 hours ago, FaninMex said:

This is all wrong.

Eriksson was brought here for his Offensive skills which disappeared when he signed his contract here. He was supposed to play Top 6 minutes.

Beagle, Roussel and Sutter were brought here for their skills at stopping goals from going into our net whether 5 on 5 or in a PK role. They are not here to take the lead on the team in scoring. That is for others. Bottom 6 players tend to get hurt more because of the game that is expected of them. Sutter was an ironman on Pits but got injured a bunch when he came to the Canucks because of what was needed from him in those starting years. Notice to that he has been less injured as our team has been getting better as he has more help.

You and others are to hung up on goals when D is just as important, maybe more so in today's league. Look at the Leafs and Edmonton. They are built to score goals but cannot stop them from going into their own net and cannot win a series.

if they're wrong your wrong too! even Jim would tell you he thought beags would score more than 6 goals in 3 seasons.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

18 hours ago, FaninMex said:

This is all wrong.

Eriksson was brought here for his Offensive skills which disappeared when he signed his contract here. He was supposed to play Top 6 minutes.

Beagle, Roussel and Sutter were brought here for their skills at stopping goals from going into our net whether 5 on 5 or in a PK role. They are not here to take the lead on the team in scoring. That is for others. Bottom 6 players tend to get hurt more because of the game that is expected of them. Sutter was an ironman on Pits but got injured a bunch when he came to the Canucks because of what was needed from him in those starting years. Notice to that he has been less injured as our team has been getting better as he has more help.

You and others are to hung up on goals when D is just as important, maybe more so in today's league. Look at the Leafs and Edmonton. They are built to score goals but cannot stop them from going into their own net and cannot win a series.

sutter was not injured due to shot blocking or his physical play. he is one of the gentle giants who doesnt sacrifice his body.

[FaninMex]

3 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

sutter was not injured due to shot blocking or his physical play. he is one of the gentle giants who doesnt sacrifice his body.

Did I say he lays people out?

He doesn't sacrifice his body? I really question how much you watch the game or watch the stats. He has been a great D forward for us. When he came here is has a rented mule and he was played like one.

3 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

if they're wrong your wrong too! even Jim would tell you he thought beags would score more than 6 goals in 3 seasons.

Goals are nice from the fourth line, sure. But as I said before, if they stop goals that is more value than scoring. With one goal scored against you are in a 2 goal deficit, one to tie and the next to win. So, stopping goals is vitally important and Beags helps stop goals from going into the net. 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

21 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

Did I say he lays people out?

He doesn't sacrifice his body? I really question how much you watch the game or watch the stats. He has been a great D forward for us. When he came here is has a rented mule and he was played like one.

Goals are nice from the fourth line, sure. But as I said before, if they stop goals that is more value than scoring. With one goal scored against you are in a 2 goal deficit, one to tie and the next to win. So, stopping goals is vitally important and Beags helps stop goals from going into the net. 

what sutter was injured from skating? great is a overstatement. mediocre at best

 

as for beags thats not true at all. he's 11th worst out of 600 so forwards who have played 80 games in the last 3 seasons in 5vs5 scoring. cap friendly suggests if he were to sign a deal today he would be offered league minimum if he was offered a contract at all.

 

and as for stats i bet ive looked at more stats then 99% of the posters on this forum. do you have 40 files of excel spreadsheets where you compile and analyze nhl stats for fun?

Edited July 2, 2021 by Petey_BOI

[FaninMex]

13 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

what sutter was injured from skating? great is a overstatement. mediocre at best

 

as for beags thats not true at all. he's 11th worst out of 600 so forwards who have played 80 games in the last 3 seasons in 5vs5 scoring. cap friendly suggests if he were to sign a deal today he would be offered league minimum if he was offered a contract at all.

 

and as for stats i bet ive looked at more stats then 99% of the posters on this forum. do you have 40 files of excel spreadsheets where you compile and analyze nhl stats for fun?

That is THE problem. You see, Dubas does the same. So, would you rather the Canucks or the Leafs current teams? I choose the Canucks as the Leafs are built to be regular season heroes. Whereas the Canucks can win a playoff series and I like their future.

 

Stats lie to you. They tell you what you want to hear.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

3 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

That is THE problem. You see, Dubas does the same. So, would you rather the Canucks or the Leafs current teams? I choose the Canucks as the Leafs are built to be regular season heroes. Whereas the Canucks can win a playoff series and I like their future.

 

Stats lie to you. They tell you what you want to hear.

i don't need stats to see beagle being pinned in his own zone and then 100% dumps in which he just dumps and changes. we end up chasing the puck for 2-3 minutes when he gets a shift. the only time they get a scoring chance is when motte has the puck.

 

beags did his job and trained up motte, at this point he's not much better than nate thompson. of career 4th liners beags is the third oldest, 4th line duties isn't for 35 + veterans.

 

this is a young mans game, we would be better off just burying him and signing paquette with the 1.125m or glendening.

 

[FaninMex]

17 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

i don't need stats to see beagle being pinned in his own zone and then 100% dumps in which he just dumps and changes. we end up chasing the puck for 2-3 minutes when he gets a shift. the only time they get a scoring chance is when motte has the puck.

 

beags did his job and trained up motte, at this point he's not much better than nate thompson. of career 4th liners beags is the third oldest, 4th line duties isn't for 35 + veterans.

 

this is a young mans game, we would be better off just burying him and signing paquette with the 1.125m or glendening.

 

Motte is not a Center.

But yes Beags is getting older. I also think that he may not have much of a career left after his recent injury. I believe the Canucks will need a 3 and 4 c for this up-coming season. This conversation that I was having and you jumped in on was about him doing his job and not being a terrible pick up by Benning

[Bad_BOI_pete]

4 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

Motte is not a Center.

But yes Beags is getting older. I also think that he may not have much of a career left after his recent injury. I believe the Canucks will need a 3 and 4 c for this up-coming season. This conversation that I was having and you jumped in on was about him doing his job and not being a terrible pick up by Benning

thanks for pointing out motte isn't a center captain obvious. I guess when you make assumptions about people you tend to make a few mistakes.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Petey_BOI

[FaninMex]

37 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

thanks for pointing out motte isn't a center captain obvious. I guess when you make assumptions about people you tend to make a few mistakes.

HAHAHA you said Beags trained Motte. What would that indicate to you?

[Bad_BOI_pete]

50 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

HAHAHA you said Beags trained Motte. What would that indicate to you?

i never mentioned center you just made another assumption. i was talking about playing D

[FaninMex]

51 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

i never mentioned center you just made another assumption. i was talking about playing D

And you are getting upset about nothing. Go make some stats about my posts. 

[FaninMex]

Anyways,

 

What do people think Tyler's chances are of making the team in some capacity?