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13 minutes ago, shiznak said:

The fact that it took the league 3 years after they won, to finally do something about it is ridiculous. They monitor every single game (especially the playoffs) closely. It’s not hard to ignore the bang in the Astro’s dugout. Just like steroids, you still have to make contact with the ball. Using a device that tips pitches, only helps you with your timing, but it doesn’t tell you where it’s exactly going to be. 
 

Looking at the playoff stats from 2017, the Astros only had 25 more hits then the next team (Dodgers), with 190+ more plate appearances, batting below .250. Those numbers should be significant better, especially in a friendly hitter park. 

To me, this is a more reasonable opinion than the way it was originally worded. I just think that mistakes in the way things were handled in the past shouldn't justify how things proceed in the future. 

 

The extent to which it worked or didn't worked goes beyond a simple bivariate comparison because there are so many other variables... like maybe the Dodgers are a supremely better hitting team, so the Astros only being marginally better than the Dodgers is actually a massive difference in performance. 

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3 minutes ago, Squamfan said:

 

 

Wow!  Their championship ship should be taken away.  Those guys went way beyond regular baseball cheating.  I wonder how many pitches, to exact revenge, knock those guys down?  That’s kind of how the baseball code works isn’t it? 

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29 minutes ago, shiznak said:

The fact that it took the league 3 years after they won, to finally do something about it is ridiculous. They monitor every single game (especially the playoffs) closely. It’s not hard to ignore the bang in the Astro’s dugout. Just like steroids, you still have to make contact with the ball. Using a device that tips pitches, only helps you with your timing, but it doesn’t tell you where it’s exactly going to be. 
 

Looking at the playoff stats from 2017, the Astros only had 25 more hits then the next team (Dodgers), with 190+ more plate appearances, batting below .250. Those numbers should be significant better, especially in a friendly hitter park. 

Disrupting timing is a massive part of pitching. If the pitchers lose that ability the hitters gain a major advantage. 
 

I don’t think you can trivialize it like that. 

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7 hours ago, Sean Monahan said:

Disrupting timing is a massive part of pitching. If the pitchers lose that ability the hitters gain a major advantage. 
 

I don’t think you can trivialize it like that. 

Well, that could go both ways and that what separates a good pitcher from a below average one. If you’re getting rattled by the other team because you can't locate your pitches and get any outs. Then, you shouldn’t be in the MLB. I don’t care if the batters know what is coming. 
 

Command of your pitches triumph everything else. 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Well, that could go both ways and that what separates a good pitcher from a below average one. If you’re getting rattled by the other team because you can't locate your pitches and get any outs. Then, you shouldn’t be in the MLB. I don’t care if the batters know what is coming. 
 

Command of your pitches triumph everything else. 

 

 

No big league pitchers hits his spot every time. They rely on a change of timing to keep batters off balance. There’s a reason why fastball/change up is the most effective combo in baseball- it disrupts timing. 

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Exactly, the only advantage of knowing the next pitch (whether it’d be a fastball or an off-speed pitch) for the batter is their timing, but that doesn’t make them make contact with the ball.

 

I dug a lot deeper and compared the Astro’s home stats and away stats from that season. 
 

Home:

Plate app. - 3009
Avg - .279

Runs - 395

Hits - 759

HRs - 117

SLG% - .472

 

Away:

Plate app. - 3262

Avg - .284

Runs - 501

Hits - 827

HRs - 123

SLG% - .483

 

As you can see, away from Minutemade Park, without the technology of stealing signs. They are just as good, if not better, than playing at home.

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6 hours ago, shiznak said:

Exactly, the only advantage of knowing the next pitch (whether it’d be a fastball or an off-speed pitch) for the batter is their timing, but that doesn’t make them make contact with the ball.

 

I dug a lot deeper and compared the Astro’s home stats and away stats from that season. 
 

Home:

Plate app. - 3009
Avg - .279

Runs - 395

Hits - 759

HRs - 117

SLG% - .472

 

Away:

Plate app. - 3262

Avg - .284

Runs - 501

Hits - 827

HRs - 123

SLG% - .483

 

As you can see, away from Minutemade Park, without the technology of stealing signs. They are just as good, if not better, than playing at home.

Have you seen the home/road splits from that playoff run for their star players ?

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4 hours ago, Sean Monahan said:

Have you seen the home/road splits from that playoff run for their star players ?

Does it matter, they were apparently cheating throughout the entire season, but here are the stats anyways. 

Home:

Plate app. - 297

Avg - .273

Hits - 81

Runs - 51

HRs - 18

SLG% - .519

 

Away:

Plate app. -  308

Avg - .209

Hits - 54

Runs - 27

HRs - 9

SLG% - .347


Obviously, it’s a drop off compared to the regular season, but any player in any sports can tell you that it’s a lot harder to win a playoff game on the road then at home. Despite the poor stats, they were still 2nd in hits, home runs, and runs scored on the road, during that playoff run.
 

Ironically, no other team had a better stat line on the road then at home, with the exception of the Dodgers. They played a lot better away from Dodgers Stadium.

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2 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Does it matter, they were apparently cheating throughout the entire season, but here are the stats anyways. 

Home:

Plate app. - 297

Avg - .273

Hits - 81

Runs - 51

HRs - 18

SLG% - .519

 

Away:

Plate app. -  308

Avg - .209

Hits - 54

Runs - 27

HRs - 9

SLG% - .347


Obviously, it’s a drop off compared to the regular season, but any player in any sports can tell you that it’s a lot harder to win a playoff game on the road then at home. Despite the poor stats, they were still 2nd in hits, home runs, and runs scored on the road, during that playoff run.
 

Ironically, no other team had a better stat line on the road then at home, with the exception of the Dodgers. They played a lot better away from Dodgers Stadium.

Look a little deeper- specifically, look at the splits on Correa, Altuve, McCann, Reddick. I can’t remember if Bregman was quite as extreme. All of those guys were at least 100 points better at home. McCann was like a Mendoza hitter that year and on the road in playoffs but looked like Ted Williams at home. It’s possible it’s just coincidence but I don’t buy it. 
 

Have you played much? I ask because I just simply don’t agree with the way you’re underselling the value of timing for hitters. Watch high school or college hitters take a round of BP seeing straight fastballs vs a round with curveballs mixed in. Timing is huge, and that’s just with their fat 60 year old coach flipping in batting practice. The difference is even more substantial when we’re talking about hitters facing off against freaks like Aroldis Chapman. 

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49 minutes ago, Sean Monahan said:

Look a little deeper- specifically, look at the splits on Correa, Altuve, McCann, Reddick. I can’t remember if Bregman was quite as extreme. All of those guys were at least 100 points better at home. McCann was like a Mendoza hitter that year and on the road in playoffs but looked like Ted Williams at home. It’s possible it’s just coincidence but I don’t buy it. 
 

Have you played much? I ask because I just simply don’t agree with the way you’re underselling the value of timing for hitters. Watch high school or college hitters take a round of BP seeing straight fastballs vs a round with curveballs mixed in. Timing is huge, and that’s just with their fat 60 year old coach flipping in batting practice. The difference is even more substantial when we’re talking about hitters facing off against freaks like Aroldis Chapman. 

Alright, let’s compared stats to other star players from a different team that playoff year.


Home:


Gregoruis - .368/7 hits/3 Runs/1HR/4RBI/.684 SLG - 19 AB

Judge - .333/7H/7R/3HRs/10RBI/.903 - 24 AB

Sanchez - .292/7H/3R/2HR/6RBI/.625 - 21 AB

Seager  -  .303/7H/4R/1HR/5RBI/.522 - 23 AB
Turner - .300/9H/3R/3HR/10RBI/.600 - 30 AB

Puig - .321./9H/3R/2HR/7RBI/.679 - 28 AB

 

Away:

Gregoruis - .175/5H/2R/2HR/3RBI/.379 SLG - 29 AB

Judge - .074/2H/2R/1HR/1RBI/.185  - 27 AB

Sanchez - .138/2H/2R/1HR/2RBI/.241  - 29 AB

Seager - .133/2H/3R/4RBI/.200 - 15 AB

Turner - . 269/7H/5R/1HR/2RBI/.462 - 26 AB

Puig - .250/7H/5R/1HR/3RBI/.357 - 28 AB

 

I didn’t do Bellinger’s stats because he played significantly better away then at home. Bryant, Rizzo, and Baez, pretty much sucked throughout the entire playoffs (although Baez played better away then at home) and statistically their home and away split stats had very little differences. Harper and Rendon played better at home, but only played 5 games. So, I didn’t bother putting their stats out there. 

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1 hour ago, Xbox said:

This goes so deep. Kinda ruins baseball for me... 

I'll admit it doesn't for me, probably because the Jays are rebuilding.  It probably would ruin baseball for me if I was a Dodgers fan.  Apoplectic wouldn't even begin to describe how I'd feel.

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29 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Alright, let’s compared stats to other star players from a different team that playoff year.


Home:


Gregoruis - .368/7 hits/3 Runs/1HR/4RBI/.684 SLG - 19 AB

Judge - .333/7H/7R/3HRs/10RBI/.903 - 24 AB

Sanchez - .292/7H/3R/2HR/6RBI/.625 - 21 AB

Seager  -  .303/7H/4R/1HR/5RBI/.522 - 23 AB
Turner - .300/9H/3R/3HR/10RBI/.600 - 30 AB

Puig - .321./9H/3R/2HR/7RBI/.679 - 28 AB

 

Away:

Gregoruis - .175/5H/2R/2HR/3RBI/.379 SLG - 29 AB

Judge - .074/2H/2R/1HR/1RBI/.185  - 27 AB

Sanchez - .138/2H/2R/1HR/2RBI/.241  - 29 AB

Seager - .133/2H/3R/4RBI/.200 - 15 AB

Turner - . 269/7H/5R/1HR/2RBI/.462 - 26 AB

Puig - .250/7H/5R/1HR/3RBI/.357 - 28 AB

 

I didn’t do Bellinger’s stats because he played significantly better away then at home. Bryant, Rizzo, and Baez, pretty much sucked throughout the entire playoffs (although Baez played better away then at home) and statistically their home and away split stats had very little differences. Harper and Rendon played better at home, but only played 5 games. So, I didn’t bother putting their stats out there. 

But the numbers still showed that they hit significantly better when they were proven to have cheated. 
 

Again, have you played? I’ll say it again- timing is huge. Timing is the difference between bombs and rolling over. 

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10 minutes ago, Sean Monahan said:

But the numbers still showed that they hit significantly better when they were proven to have cheated. 
 

Again, have you played? I’ll say it again- timing is huge. Timing is the difference between bombs and rolling over. 

I mean, you could say the same thing for every team that has players do significantly better at home than away. I just posted six all-star players who did significantly better at home then on the road that playoff year ...... are other teams stealing signs as well? 
 

Like I said, that method of cheating is so ridiculous obvious. Farquhar knew it (in the video), why didn’t the league investigated and take actions, back then?  
 

The fact that it took them 3 years after they won to put the ban hammer down, seem like the league sort of knew and kind of brushed it under the rug, until the public caught on and they decided to finally take action. 

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20 minutes ago, shiznak said:

I mean, you could say the same thing for every team that has players do significantly better at home than away. I just posted six all-star players who did significantly better at home then on the road that playoff year ...... are other teams stealing signs as well? 
 

Like I said, that method of cheating is so ridiculous obvious. Farquhar knew it (in the video), why didn’t the league investigated and take actions, back then?  
 

The fact that it took them 3 years after they won to put the ban hammer down, seem like the league sort of knew and kind of brushed it under the rug, until the public caught on and they decided to finally take action. 

Who knows the league’s motivations behind it but yeah, I’d agree, the league probably knew and had done nothing about it. Not unheard of. Look at Ray Rice and the NFL. I could see it being that Houston is a big market that had been relatively unsuccessful for the last number of years so they figured it was for their own benefit to see the team succeed. It’s possible. 
 

I also don’t believe that the league has cracked down on steroids to the extent it appears to. Players are better at hiding it and know better than to juice themselves to the point of looking like bodybuilders and making it totally obvious. Steroids make the game better, integrity be damned. 

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4 minutes ago, Xbox said:

Look at Altuve's record at Home vs Away. It's shocking how different they are. Dude sucks when he doesn't know what's being pitched.

Regular season he hit an average of .381, with 112 hits, 15 HRs, and 48 driven in. away from Minute Made Park. .311, 92 hits, 9HR, and 35 driven in at home.

 

I guess they were stealing signs in other ballparks too.

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