[PGT] St. Louis Blues at Vancouver Canucks | Jan. 27, 2020

[stawns]

Just now, mikkim said:

I could really see that when Ferland comes back and Gaudette going to the press box for a while but would Ferland play with Beagle and Mott or would they move Roussel down to the 4th line and have Ferland playing with Sutter and Boeser

 

That's my guess.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

you did not understand the lineup you were critiquing.

 

First - Horvat's line only needs to be a 'shutdown' line when Sutter and/or Beagle are absent.  That was the reason LE was moved up to that line - because it was serving matchup duties in the long absence of Sutter (and Beagle).   Through that period Horvat was a workhorse - to what was likely an unsustainable degree - and he has appeared to be flagging at times.

 

The point is this"

1)  You move Sutter to 3C - with Roussel - a line that is and was a high end shutdown line.  It's not a secondary scoring line simply because Gaudette is on the wing - he's on that wing to provide counterpunching secondary scoring while learning the 'little things' - playing two-way defensive hockey.  At this point he's somewhat in over his head at C at the NHL level - whether he's sheltered or not.  If you want to make that line even more effective in shutdown, you move Virtanen there, but Virtanen and Miller are providing EP some real heaviness and speed - and it seems to be serving EP's line well - as well as Boeser was.  A '3rd' line, btw is typically a 'matchup' line.

2) The Horvat line does not need to remain a matchup line when there are Beagle and Sutter line - they can be weighted back to being a 2nd line - ie a secondary scoring line - and provide more upside than you are going to get out of Gaudette's line regardless of their deployment.  Horvat's line does not need tilted ice to produce.  Like the dynamic on the 1st line, playing with a pair of heavier, two way forwards like Pearson and Horvat could serve Boeser well.

The Sutter and Beagle lines should, somewhat, speak for themselves.

 

You seem to be confusing what a 2nd and 3rd line are.  A second line is not typically a shutdown line and a 3rd is not typically a scoring line.  As it is, I'd consider the Gaudette line an unconventional 4th line - getting 4th line minutes, as a secondary scoring line (ala the Oiler's "kid line" of their contending years.  Last night that line played the least.  I'd like to see Boeser further up the lineup with a couple linemates that can drive play for him - getting more minutes and more quality opportunities - something Gaudettte cannot provide.  And likewise, Gaudette on the wing plays more to his strengths at this stage of his development - he also appears to be flagging, and has notable difficulty when he has to handle strong opposition lines.   Get him a couple veteran linemates that, like the top two lines, drive play for him.

 

That would be my "base" formation - which I'd alter if/when I'm able to get a Gaudette line some tilted ice/sheltered conditions - (they'd be my 5th line - used situationally). 

 

Didn’t Bess play with Bo before, and they had good success?  Are you seeing the lines shaking out like:

Miller, Petey, Jake

Pearson, Bo, Bess

Rooster, Sutter, Gaud

Motte, Beagle, LE

 

[I.Am.Ironman]

1 hour ago, bree2 said:

I know that everyone will disagree with me, but just as you all have a right to post so do I. Boeser played fine on the 1st line, and at one point that line was number one in the nhl for points. Boeser was a part of that, who do you think Boeser passed to give JT and Petey the goals they got, along with getting the goals he got from them. he never got the 43 points not working hard. I realize you all love Jake and that is good, he is playing well. but at the expense of Boeser. Jake played well with Gaudette  and Rousell  he alone made that line work. Gaudette  is horrible on the face-offs and he likes to not use his wingers. that is just how I see it. To me Green is not doing Boeser who is not a whiner but a very humble guy any favours.  if he wants to keep him on the third line, at least give him better players to play with.  

No one is questioning anybody's right to post?

 

Yes the first line was producing well with Boeser on it. But that line is still producing well without Boeser and with Virtanen, which poses the question, was it Boeser or was it EP + JT?

 

We all want Boeser to succeed but there is no harm in being objective about what we see. I think we all had the mindset that Boeser would balance the scoring by shifting to the 3rd line. He may still do that, time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised to see the lines juggled again on the upcoming road trip.

 

Green very well could be doing Boeser a favour in the long run by working on other aspects of his game. We are also learning more about Boeser. He may be a winger that needs to play with good players to produce, that is good information to have and not a knock on BB if it turns out to be the case. If Boeser can drive a line's offence, or learn how to, that will benefit the team greatly in the long run, and BB.

 

The team is winning, I am sure Boeser is happy with that as all of us are.

[oldnews]

Beagle may have lead all forwards with 10 dzone starts - one helluva heavy load he shouldered last night.

 

But maybe a bit lost in that credit for the '4th line'....

 

Was the work of Edler (14 dzone starts, Myers (10), Stecher and Fantenburg (9 each).

I realize Myers may have failed to clear a puck lol - but if we shift focus off micro-dwelling on a particular 'error' - that group of 4 were really solid last  night.

I think we come to expect it of Edler, but Fantenburg impressed me last night = I think he's a notable improvement over Benn in terms of puck moving and mobility - but he also stepped up the physicality last night against a heavy forward group.

 

Perhaps as impressive as anything about this win was the adaptation - of sheltering Hughes from that heavy forward group - and in spite of him not having one of his best nights - the team still managed to turn out a win - a well-earned win imo despite the corsiz. 

Even extracting Tanev from the 'shutdown' pairings - the blueline held out quite well - understandably bent at times, and have some good forwards to support them - but they were resilient.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

No one is questioning anybody's right to post?

 

Yes the first line was producing well with Boeser on it. But that line is still producing well without Boeser and with Virtanen, which poses the question, was it Boeser or was it EP + JT?

 

We all want Boeser to succeed but there is no harm in being objective about what we see. I think we all had the mindset that Boeser would balance the scoring by shifting to the 3rd line. He may still do that, time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised to see the lines juggled again on the upcoming road trip.

 

Green very well could be doing Boeser a favour in the long run by working on other aspects of his game. We are also learning more about Boeser. He may be a winger that needs to play with good players to produce, that is good information to have and not a knock on BB if it turns out to be the case. If Boeser can drive a line's offence, or learn how to, that will benefit the team greatly in the long run, and BB.

 

The team is winning, I am sure Boeser is happy with that as all of us are.

Bess is a finisher.  He can be playmaker too, of course, but his best quality is his finish.  

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Beagle may have lead all forwards with 10 dzone starts - one helluva heavy load he shouldered last night.

 

But maybe a bit lost in that credit for the '4th line'....

 

Was the work of Edler (14 dzone starts, Myers (10), Stecher and Fantenburg (9 each).

I realize Myers may have failed to clear a puck lol - but if we shift focus off micro-dwelling on a particular 'error' - that group of 4 were really solid last  night.

I think we come to expect it of Edler, but Fantenburg impressed me last night = I think he's a notable improvement over Benn in terms of puck moving and mobility - but he also stepped up the physicality last night against a heavy forward group.

 

Perhaps as impressive as anything about this win was the adaptation - of sheltering Hughes from that heavy forward group - and in spite of him not having one of his best nights - the team still managed to turn out a win - a well-earned win imo despite the corsiz. 

Even extracting Tanev from the 'shutdown' pairings - the blueline held out quite well - understandably bent at times, and have some good forwards to support them - but they were resilient.

I thought that was one of Fantenburg's best game in blue and green last night.  He was quietly rock solid in his own end and played a strong, disciplined game.  Myers kept it simple and he's always effective when he plays that way..........I hve no problems with icing, I think they should do it more when they get hemmed in.

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Didn’t Bess play with Bo before, and they had good success?  Are you seeing the lines shaking out like:

Miller, Petey, Jake

Pearson, Bo, Bess

Rooster, Sutter, Gaud

Motte, Beagle, LE

 

yeah - if Sutter can take draws / if that shoulder is healthy - that's how I'd "base" it.

but I'd qualify that by saying they could still throw in some situational minutes with Gaudette centering a secondary scoring line.  I like the option of the 5 line setup for versatility = they could have three shutdown capable lines - Beagle, Sutter, and Horvat - and 3 secondary scoring capable lines - EP/MIller, Horvat and Gaudette - simultaneously.  The wisdom of having a wealth of two-way forwards and extra natural centers in the mix makes that a very versatile group imo - that can shift in whichever direction it needs.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

yeah - if Sutter can take draws / if that shoulder is healthy - that's how I'd "base" it.

but I'd qualify that by saying they could still throw in some situational minutes with Gaudette centering a secondary scoring line.  I like the option of the 5 line setup for versatility = they could have three shutdown capable lines - Beagle, Sutter, and Horvat - and 3 secondary scoring capable lines - EP/MIller, Horvat and Gaudette - simultaneously.  The wisdom of having a wealth of two-way forwards and extra natural centers in the mix makes that a very versatile group imo - that can shift in whichever direction it needs.

Watching how young Podkolzin is playing in the KHL recently, and at this past WJC I can see a lot of center-like qualities in his game too.  I wonder how well he’d do at face Offs? 

[Darius]

7 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

No one is questioning anybody's right to post?

 

Yes the first line was producing well with Boeser on it. But that line is still producing well without Boeser and with Virtanen, which poses the question, was it Boeser or was it EP + JT?

 

Not directing this at you in particular Ironman, just general observations.

 

I think its too early in the line swap (BB to the third and JV to the first line) to make any definite conclusions about JV's contribution vs BB's contribution on that first line.

 

Boeser came in as a calder candidate without EP, without JT. There was a time when even Bo was injured and BB kept producing.   Sometimes i get the feeling that BB doesnt get enough respect.  His playmaking skills are overlooked and he has showed  (to me ) that he processes the game at a higher level than JV does. 

 

Boeser's potential cant be judged from his production on that third line.  Gaudette is fairly inexperienced, still has lots of holes to fix in his game, and Rouss is a decent player but certainly not a guy thats gonna light it up.  All of those elements in addition to the fact that he gets reduced ice time now will amount to a reduction in his production.   Hell, put EP with Gaudette and Roussel...will he still be a ppg player?

 

I do agree with the above post that the adversity that comes with this new assignment may help Boeser in the long run.

 

[oldnews]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Watching how young Podkolzin is playing in the KHL recently, and at this past WJC I can see a lot of center-like qualities in his game too.  I wonder how well he’d do at face Offs? 

It's funny how quickly things can change.

For me - the team has some young forwards - that are precisely the type of players they could need in the future if/when they need to let a few veterans move on because of cap limitations.

Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lind, Madden.....Bailey, MacEwen....could help take the edge off  some hard decisions (Pearson, Sutter, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle....it pains me to type those names lol)

 

I think the whole dimjim crowd may at some point begin to conceive the 'wisdom' of the measured, protracted rething - as opposed to the teardown so many people wanted.

The point - imo - is not to create a glut of prospects all bottlenecked into a few critical drafts - it is to create a steady stream that provides a continuous push - perhaps not as concentrated up front as a lot of people wanted - but in those circumstances it's both difficult to provide a 'foundation' for emerging players, and it's difficult to make them 'earn' their roster spots when there is a lack of veteran competition present.   I like the process - and  I think the bullshizz that continues to walk in this market / the media - as if Benning just 'learned' from his mistakes - continues to evidence a general ignornance that there was more than one way to go about a rething, and the #proper way isn't necessarily as convincing/effective in the end.  A lot of denial as people attempt to (dishonestly?) reposition themselves relative to what has been done/accomplished.

 

 edit - sorry Alf - I didn't really answer your question = I'm not sure if Podkolzin could/should play center - and I'm not sure it would/will be necessary given the group he'll be joining - but you can never have too many guys capable of moving from one forward position to another.

Edited January 28, 2020 by oldnews

[EdgarM]

26 minutes ago, mikkim said:

I could really see that when Ferland comes back and Gaudette going to the press box for a while but would Ferland play with Beagle and Mott or would they move Roussel down to the 4th line and have Ferland playing with Sutter and Boeser

 

I think Ferland would be a much better option, offensively, and then have Roussel on the 4th. Ferland/Sutter/Boeser sounds interesting, especially for the playoffs.

[Ghostsof1915]

So Brock with Bo? Maybe Gaudette plays off wing and on the left side? 

Pearson Sutter and Eriksson for the 3rd line? 

[mikkim]

1 minute ago, EdgarM said:

I think Ferland would be a much better option, offensively, and then have Roussel on the 4th. Ferland/Sutter/Boeser sounds interesting, especially for the playoffs.

Ya, that's my thinking too, Ferland does have better hands and vision than Roussel I think which would benefit Brock

 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, oldnews said:

It's funny how quickly things can change.

For me - the team has some young forwards - that are precisely the type of players they could need in the future if/when they need to let a few veterans move on because of cap limitations.

Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lind, Madden.....Bailey, MacEwen....could help take the edge off  some hard decisions (Pearson, Sutter, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle....it pains me to type those names lol)

 

I think the whole dimjim crowd may at some point begin to conceive the 'wisdom' of the measured, protracted rething - as opposed to the teardown so many people wanted.

The point - imo - is not to create a glut of prospects all bottlenecked into a few critical drafts - it is to create a steady stream that provides a continuous push - perhaps not as concentrated up front as a lot of people wanted - but in those circumstances it's both difficult to provide a 'foundation' for emerging players, and it's difficult to make them 'earn' their roster spots when there is a lack of veteran competition present.   I like the process - and  I think the bullshizz that continues to walk in this market / the media - as if Benning just 'learned' from his mistakes - continues to evidence a general ignornance that there was more than one way to go about a rething, and the #proper way isn't necessarily as convincing/effective in the end.  A lot of denial as people attempt to (dishonestly?) reposition themselves relative to what has been done/accomplished.

Agreed.  We have a really good young core.  Our window for winning is now (obviously) open.  The stronger the pipeline of young ELC guys, the longer the window stays open.  I see the coming 2020’s as the best decade in our team’s history.  And it’s pretty clear this success now and in the future is because of “Dim” Jim.

I was a vocal critic of Benning’s process of rebuild, but seeing the results it’s easy fir me to admit I was way wrong.  

Ironic I didn’t accept there was more than one way to skin a cat.  

Edited January 28, 2020 by Alflives

[RowdyCanuck]

33 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Bess is a finisher.  He can be playmaker too, of course, but his best quality is his finish.  

But on the top line he lacks their speed....

brock has better  Offence and higher hockey IQ compared to Jake but Jake adds size and speed and it's not like Jake doesn't have the ability to finish too. 

When a scorer with Brock's IQ lacks the speed then he turns into a play maker thx to his hockey IQ but with Brock , he can't afford to make a bad read cause sometimes he lacks speed to cover up the gamble.....

brock still a great player but now we have options and like someone mentioned before Brock was a Calder finalists but with  Sedin's are set up men and we have changed our team speed and style of play since......

I personnally don't think it benefits Brock cause he plays a smart game not a speed game ...... But I could be off all together. 

 

[EdgarM]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Agreed.  We have a really good young core.  Our window for winning is now (obviously) open.  The stronger the pipeline of young ELC guys, the longer the window stays open.  I see the coming 2020’s as the best decade in our team’s history.  And it’s pretty clear this success now and in the future is because of “Dim” Jim.

I was a vocal critic of Benning’s process of rebuild, but seeing the results it’s easy fir me to admit I was way wrong.  

Ironic I didn’t accept there was more than one way to skin a cat.  

That's a good one Alf.   Its funny how all the teams that were able to scoop up the best picks in the last few years ,compared to us, who never got one break in the drafts, are today. No one would even trade with us back then. 

Now, with all those teams,Toronto,Edmonton,Buffalo,Arizona etc. I would still not trade our team for theirs. 

Everyone had there own way to accumulate their 23 man rosters. We didn't get the best picks, the best opportunity for trades, but we still managed to put together a pretty darn good team regardless.

Imagine a rebuild/retool while keeping your veterans like Edler,Tanev and adding others such as Roussel, Beagle and now Miller to the mix. 

Our young guys are better for it and the team is playing pretty good right now. So many times I heard that we needed to gut the team and get rid of the vets. Heck even LE is contributing right now and he was blasted the most.

Balance is the key and we have that right now.

[stawns]

22 minutes ago, mikkim said:

Ya, that's my thinking too, Ferland does have better hands and vision than Roussel I think which would benefit Brock

 

I like Rous and understand the need for him, but he's not a third line player, imo.........not in the context of the current lineup.  I think Motte is a good fit on that line until Ferly or Leivo is ready.

[Podzilla]

Honestly unless Boeser returns to rookie form I can see him being traded in the near future. Green isn’t his biggest fan and I think a lot of that has to do with his skating. He’s just not fast enough to get his shots off anymore like he used to and when he does it has nowhere near the same power or accuracy. I think the back and all his wrist injuries/surgeries have done a number on him. Maybe after another hard offseason of training he’ll get what made him great back, but I just don’t see his skating improving much and the league just keeps getting faster and faster. That’s another reason why JV is having so much success in his spot. 

[Alflives]

Just now, Elias_Pettersson said:

Honestly unless Boeser returns to rookie form I can see him being traded in the near future. Green isn’t his biggest fan and I think a lot of that has to do with his skating. He’s just not fast enough to get his shots off anymore like he used to and when he does it has nowhere near the same power or accuracy. I think the back and all his wrist injuries/surgeries have done a number on him. Maybe after another hard offseason of training he’ll get what made him great back, but I just don’t see his skating improving much and the league just keeps getting faster and faster. That’s another reason why JV is having so much success in his spot. 

Guys on 1040 this morning floated the idea of Bess for Dumbo.  They got an NHL exec to comment on if that’s a fair deal.  That exec said the Canucks would say no, because Bess has more value right now.  It’s interesting to discuss though.  

[RowdyCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Elias_Pettersson said:

Honestly unless Boeser returns to rookie form I can see him being traded in the near future. Green isn’t his biggest fan and I think a lot of that has to do with his skating. He’s just not fast enough to get his shots off anymore like he used to and when he does it has nowhere near the same power or accuracy. I think the back and all his wrist injuries/surgeries have done a number on him. Maybe after another hard offseason of training he’ll get what made him great back, but I just don’t see his skating improving much and the league just keeps getting faster and faster. That’s another reason why JV is having so much success in his spot. 

Trade Brock at 2020 draft after the playoffs and we can see if he's worth keeping or not....

wild might have a high pick ...be a great PR move fr the wild lol....