Baggins Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 24 minutes ago, aGENT said: If he wants to sign for $7m (or North), he probably goes to FA. I don't think the Canucks have any interest in paying him much above $6. He's playing VERY well but his age, short history of playing at this level, the team becoming a destination, him clearly wanting to be here etc keep the price South of $7m IMO. (Never mind goalies being complete voodoo). Hopefully TD can also play well in his absence here over the next month and tilt further leverage towards the club. Not sure how you've determined that bold part, but I suspect he'll walk if that's JB's limit. Even if you wanted to stay with a team would you be willing to give up $10m or more in salary? Even front loading a contract wouldn't make up for that kind of salary loss. Don't get me wrong, I'd love him to re-sign at what you're suggesting. I just don't see it as a reasonable enough offer for him to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Baggins said: Not sure how you've determined that bold part, but I suspect he'll walk if that's JB's limit. Even if you wanted to stay with a team would you be willing to give up $10m or more in salary? Even front loading a contract wouldn't make up for that kind of salary loss. Don't get me wrong, I'd love him to re-sign at what you're suggesting. I just don't see it as a reasonable enough offer for him to stay. Not sure where you're getting this '$10m or more' from? His contract will likely fall at +/- 4 years. $6m vs $7m at 4 years is $4m. And personally, I think $7m is optimistic. No playoff worthy teams have the cap space to pay him that. Sure, you can go to a basement team and make $7m...good luck to you. He also has far more opportunity to make up that $1m/year here with endorsement deals than he likely would on any of those basement teams. And he'd have to leave the team that stuck with him to get here, the goalie coach that helped get him to this level, all his buddies on the team, a team on the rise, a great city etc for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Besides Loui and Baertchi, and agent's suggestion of Roussel, other pieces we could move to clear cap are Sutter, Beagle and Benn. It's going to cost us picks and prospects to move most of these guys and I'm okay with that. Salary retention would certainly help but somewhat defeats the purpose of clearing cap. As someone who wants to keep Markstrom, Tanev, Stecher, Toffoli, Gaudette, Motte and Jake, I accept that we'll need to pay a significant price in futures to clear out contracts that stand in the way. We can afford to do that with the young talent we've already got on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Just now, aGENT said: Not sure where you're getting this '$10m or more' from? His contract will likely fall at +/- 4 years. $6m vs $7m at 4 years is $4m. And personally, I think $7m is optimistic. No playoff worthy teams have the cap space to pay him that. Sure, you can go to a basement team and make $7m...good luck to you. He also has far more opportunity to make up that $1m/year here with endorsement deals than he likely would on any of those basement teams. And he'd have to leave the team that stuck with him to get here, the goalie coach that helped get him to this level, all his buddies on the team, a team on the rise, a great city etc for it. I figure he'll get at least 8m on the open market and at least 5 years. 5 x 2 = 10. Elite goalies in the past couple of years got 11m per on longer terms. So I figure a very good goalie will likely be worth at least 8 x 5 this summer. I suspect you're under selling him that only the weakest teams would have interest or be willing to make a reasonable offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said: Besides Loui and Baertchi, and agent's suggestion of Roussel, other pieces we could move to clear cap are Sutter, Beagle and Benn. It's going to cost us picks and prospects to move most of these guys and I'm okay with that. Salary retention would certainly help but somewhat defeats the purpose of clearing cap. As someone who wants to keep Markstrom, Tanev, Stecher, Toffoli, Gaudette, Motte and Jake, I accept that we'll need to pay a significant price in futures to clear out contracts that stand in the way. We can afford to do that with the young talent we've already got on the team. We won't be paying to get rid of any of those guys and we are highly unlikely to move either of the C's any time soon anyway. Benn? Sure. Sutter and Beagle are far from 'cap dumps' who need prospects or picks added to move them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, Baggins said: I figure he'll get at least 8m on the open market and at least 5 years. 5 x 2 = 10. Elite goalies in the past couple of years got 11m per on longer terms. So I figure a very good goalie will likely be worth at least 8 x 5 this summer. I suspect you're under selling him that only the weakest teams would have interest or be willing to make a reasonable offer. I think the opposite. I think GMs have seen large long term goalie contracts hamstring teams abilities to be fluid in a cap era. Luongo, Bobrovsky, Quick, Price etc. Look at Holtby right now, rumours are he;'s walking as a UFA because the Caps won't be able to match his asking price and have groomed a solid back up without him. Those same Gms have probably seen teams winning cups with Binningtons etc Hard to say what will happen but I don't think it will be a massive cap killing contract moving forward 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Baggins said: I figure he'll get at least 8m on the open market and at least 5 years. 5 x 2 = 10. Elite goalies in the past couple of years got 11m per on longer terms. So I figure a very good goalie will likely be worth at least 8 x 5 this summer. I suspect you're under selling him that only the weakest teams would have interest or be willing to make a reasonable offer. The guys making the type of money you're talking about are in another class. Bob had a couple Vezina's and a hell of a lot more track record to leverage. He's also by most accounts, overpaid. The general consensus was that that was a highly iffy/risky/bad deal. Vasilevsky is a 25 year old, perennial Vezina candidate who's been a top goalie since he entered the league. Price has been a top 3 goalie almost since he entered the league, has also won a Vezina etc. Lundquist, the future HOF'er, again a top goalie upon entering the league, Vezina winner (multiple nominations). Apples. Oranges. You need to go down a good tier to the Quick's, Rask's, Gibsons's etc and even then, those guys again, had longer/better track records. If he's making $8m, it's not going to be here (or another contender). Edited February 25, 2020 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, aGENT said: We won't be paying to get rid of any of those guys and we are highly unlikely to move either of the C's any time soon anyway. Benn? Sure. Sutter and Beagle are far from 'cap dumps' who need prospects or picks added to move them. Sutter and Beagle may not be cap dumps exactly but I don't think they're easily moveable at their salaries either. You probably wouldn't get equivalent value to their salaries coming back in a deal. I do agree that Benning would be reluctant to move these guys and that they contribute to the team when they're healthy, so I'm not hating on them at all. For sure we wouldn't want to get rid of both, but each separately is an option. My point is just that you have to weigh keeping them against losing other guys who might be higher priority at this stage. Of course I'd hate to sacrifice futures to move any of the real deadwood we've got but it might be the least damaging option. Benning isn't Dubas, but he has got himself into a tricky situation with the cap. Something has to give, so it's a question of what. I don't think you, me, or anyone else can be sure how all of this will shake down, and that a lot of options are on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, aGENT said: The guys making the type of money you're talking about are in another class. Bob had a couple Vezina's and a hell of a lot more track record to leverage. He's also by most accounts, overpaid. The general consensus was that that was a highly iffy/risky/bad deal. Vasilevsky is a 25 year old, perennial Vezina candidate who's been a top goalie since he entered the league. Price has been a top 3 goalie almost since he entered the league, has also won a Vezina etc. Lundquist, the future HOF'er, again a top goalie upon entering the league, Vezina winner (multiple nominations). Apples. Oranges. You need to go down a good tier to the Quick's, Rask's, Gibsons's etc and even then, those guys again, had longer/better track records. If he's making $8m, it's not going to be here (or another contender). There's a reason I refferred to them as 'elite' and Markie as 'very good'. Thus 3m per less and shorter term. When you go down your list also note when the deal was signed as the cap goes up every year and salaries follow. You can't compare a comparible players salary that signed 5, 4, or even 3 years ago and say that will be the going rate this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said: Sutter and Beagle may not be cap dumps exactly but I don't think they're easily moveable at their salaries either. You probably wouldn't get equivalent value to their salaries coming back in a deal. I do agree that Benning would be reluctant to move these guys and that they contribute to the team when they're healthy, so I'm not hating on them at all. For sure we wouldn't want to get rid of both, but each separately is an option. My point is just that you have to weigh keeping them against losing other guys who might be higher priority at this stage. Of course I'd hate to sacrifice futures to move any of the real deadwood we've got but it might be the least damaging option. Benning isn't Dubas, but he has got himself into a tricky situation with the cap. Something has to give, so it's a question of what. I don't think you, me, or anyone else can be sure how all of this will shake down, and that a lot of options are on the table. They both expire in the next couple years anyway... Sutter next year, Beagle the year after. We may very well move them at those respective TDL (and even then, possibly not if we're looking to make noise in the playoffs) but we in no way whatsoever require moving them sooner to make space. There's far more obvious and lower hanging fruit and none of it requires losing guys who are 'higher priority'. Roussel, Baer, Eriksson, Benn... Edited February 25, 2020 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Baggins said: There's a reason I refferred to them as 'elite' and Markie as 'very good'. Thus 3m per less and shorter term. When you go down your list also note when the deal was signed as the cap goes up every year and salaries follow. You can't compare a comparible players salary that signed 5, 4, or even 3 years ago and say that will be the going rate this summer. Absolutely. But there's still pretty much zero chance we're paying him $7-$8m. Doesn't have the hardware or track record to warrant it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, aGENT said: Absolutely. But there's still pretty much zero chance we're paying him $7-$8m. Doesn't have the hardware or track record to warrant it. The past season and a half is a track record. Some of the analysts were saying when you look at advanced goalie metrics Markie is among the top of the league and believe he's the teams mvp depsite the season Petie, Miller, and Hughes have had. They also believe he's going to get a payday this this summer. So we shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 53 minutes ago, Baggins said: Not sure how you've determined that bold part, but I suspect he'll walk if that's JB's limit. Even if you wanted to stay with a team would you be willing to give up $10m or more in salary? Even front loading a contract wouldn't make up for that kind of salary loss. Don't get me wrong, I'd love him to re-sign at what you're suggesting. I just don't see it as a reasonable enough offer for him to stay. Markstrom won't make more then 6 x 5 next contract. He's not Rask, MAF, Bob, Price etc...and most of those guys have had a hard time at one point or another....nobody is paying him over six unless the term is very short 2-3 years - and no way he takes that deal either. Expect a 4-5 year deal at around 5.25-6 tops 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Just now, Baggins said: The past season and a half is a track record. Some of the analysts were saying when you look at advanced goalie metrics Markie is among the top of the league and believe he's the teams mvp depsite the season Petie, Miller, and Hughes have had. They also believe he's going to get a payday this this summer. So we shall see. So. You could say that about dozens of goalies in the past and currently playing. Like Varlamov. Lehner good comparison recently...Elliot - Anderson...etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Baggins said: The past season and a half is a track record. Some of the analysts were saying when you look at advanced goalie metrics Markie is among the top of the league and believe he's the teams mvp depsite the season Petie, Miller, and Hughes have had. They also believe he's going to get a payday this this summer. So we shall see. Lot's of goalies have had 1-2 great years. That, does not a track record make. Nobody's arguing he's played VERY well. I was one of the few guys supporting him as a starter last fall. But 1.5 years at 30 is not the same things as 5+ years in his early 20's with hardware, hardware nominations, playoff runs etc. He's not in the same stratosphere. +/- $6m x 4 years...is a pretty darn good payday. Edited February 25, 2020 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 7:15 PM, mll said: They could also postpone for a year. The buyout cap hit in June 2021 would be 4M followed by 1M. I don’t really see Ottawa having trouble reaching the floor. Chabot is starting an 8M contract. They also have RFAs to re-sign this summer but also next before Eriksson’s contract is up. Ottawa is also picking really high and twice. Things can change so quickly. Easy example Vancouver with Boeser and especially Pettersson and Hughes. Ottawa has Chabot, Tkachuk and this draft could allow them to take another important step forward. In a year they might want to add players over the summer like the Canucks did by getting Miller. Adding Eriksson or any cap dump with term could limit them. Mll if they send Eriksson to Utica the remaining 2 years of his contract , what would they save? If anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, aGENT said: They both expire in the next couple years anyway... Sutter next year, Beagle the year after. We may very well move them at those respective TDL (and even then, possibly not if we're looking to make noise in the playoffs) but we in no way whatsoever require moving them sooner to make space. There's far more obvious and lower hanging fruit and none of it requires losing guys who are 'higher priority'. Roussel, Baer, Eriksson, Benn... Again, I'm not advocating getting rid of these guys, just saying that it's an option, that there are many scenarios to free the cap space to keep the players we want to keep. That's the thing about options: you don't have to take all of them, just enough to get the job done. Because in the real world, GMs have to deal with their peers and what their interests are, which creates plenty of uncertainty. So there's no basis for saying "no way whatsoever", only that you'd rather not, which is a different thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Just now, Maniwaki Canuck said: Again, I'm not advocating getting rid of these guys, just saying that it's an option, that there are many scenarios to free the cap space to keep the players we want to keep. That's the thing about options: you don't have to take all of them, just enough to get the job done. Because in the real world, GMs have to deal with their peers and what their interests are, which creates plenty of uncertainty. So there's no basis for saying "no way whatsoever", only that you'd rather not, which is a different thing. "No way whatsoever do we require moving them sooner to make space." Was the full quote FWIW Require being the operative word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, aGENT said: "No way whatsoever do we require moving them sooner to make space." Was the full quote FWIW Require being the operative word. sure, all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, aGENT said: Lot's of goalies have had 1-2 great years. That, does not a track record make. Nobody's arguing he's played VERY well. I was one of the few guys supporting him as a starter last fall. But 1.5 years at 30 is not the same things as 5+ years in his early 20's with hardware, hardware nominations, playoff runs etc. He's not in the same stratosphere. +/- $6m x 4 years...is a pretty darn good payday. Again, we shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now