GhostsOf1994 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said: Jealous of Calgary? I think yes. You hate to see it. Lol jealous? I got chased outta the stampede for having a functioning brain and a mouth full of teeth. I'm sure jealous of cowpoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 minute ago, GhostsOf1994 said: Lol jealous? I got chased outta the stampede for having a functioning brain and a mouth full of teeth. I'm sure jealous of cowpoke Riiight... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 4 hours ago, ruilin96 said: Really shot ourselves in the foot with those Beagle, Roussel, Sutter and Baertchi contracts. I am not including LE in this one as at the time of the signing, if we didn't give him 6x6 someone else will. However, Beagle, Roussel, Sutter and Baertchi likely could've all been signed for fewer dollars + term. You can’t go back in time and then frame those signings against a world that got a once in a lifetime pandemic, where nobody is pulling in big dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, VancouverHabitant said: You can’t go back in time and then frame those signings against a world that got a once in a lifetime pandemic, where nobody is pulling in big dollars. What does a pandemic have anything to do with it? They were overpaid in 2018 when they were originally signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 6 hours ago, ruilin96 said: Really shot ourselves in the foot with those Beagle, Roussel, Sutter and Baertchi contracts. I am not including LE in this one as at the time of the signing, if we didn't give him 6x6 someone else will. However, Beagle, Roussel, Sutter and Baertchi likely could've all been signed for fewer dollars + term. #densetakes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 15 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said: What does a pandemic have anything to do with it? They were overpaid in 2018 when they were originally signed. Because they are being framed in the context of who we could've been signing this off-season if we didn't have those guys on the books. Pre-covid, Dominik Simon probably would've been qualified by the Penguins (that's the topic that we are currently in). Pre-covid, Dominik Simon would've fetched a lot more then 700,000. Pre-covid the salary cap has gone up every year for more then a decade, and it was projected to go up this year again. Pandemic has a lot to do with everything that we are discussing right now. The whole state of the NHL free agency is affected the most by the pandemic. In fact, we may not have a season next year thanks to the pandemic, it's far from a sure thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said: Because they are being framed in the context of who we could've been signing this off-season if we didn't have those guys on the books. Pre-covid, Dominik Simon probably would've been qualified by the Penguins (that's the topic that we are currently in). Pre-covid, Dominik Simon would've fetched a lot more then 700,000. Pre-covid the salary cap has gone up every year for more then a decade, and it was projected to go up this year again. Pandemic has a lot to do with everything that we are discussing right now. The whole state of the NHL free agency is affected the most by the pandemic. In fact, we may not have a season next year thanks to the pandemic, it's far from a sure thing. Except the point is that you don't need to commit multi-year deals with big money attached for bottom-six players. Yeah, these guys making 700K would have probably made a bit more money in normal circumstances, but no way were they ever going to get these outrageous 4x3M type of deals like the ones we have felt fit to hand out in years past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Alain Vigneault said: Except the point is that you don't need to commit multi-year deals with big money attached for bottom-six players. Yeah, these guys making 700K would have probably made a bit more money in normal circumstances, but no way were they ever going to get these outrageous 4x3M type of deals like the ones we have felt fit to hand out in years past. Beagle had just won the Stanley Cup when he got signed. If we hadn't given him 3 million, someone else would've and I have no issues with his contract compared to what we're getting from him. Roussel was overpaid a bit and delivered big time until he suffered that season ending injury that also kept him out of half of this year. I really don't get people that keep throwing his and Beagle's name out there. I hate Baertchi's contract the most out of any of them. He suffered multiple concussions that completely ruined his career and it was an unnecessary gamble by Benning. Sutter's overpaid too for his bottom 6 contribution. For the record Sven had better numbers then Jake going into his negotiations. Jake just got 2.55, and Sven got 3.37. I don't think you guys are accounting for the fact that nobody wanted to play in Vancouver during those years. Before we got Elias and Quinn, this was near the bottom of the list for free agents. I'll leave it at that. I'm disagreeing too much with someone that's named after my favourite Canucks' coach of all-time (no offense to Pat). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said: Beagle had just won the Stanley Cup when he got signed. If we hadn't given him 3 million, someone else would've and I have no issues with his contract compared to what we're getting from him. Roussel was overpaid a bit and delivered big time until he suffered that season ending injury that also kept him out of half of this year. I really don't get people that keep throwing his and Beagle's name out there. I hate Baertchi's contract the most out of any of them. He suffered multiple concussions that completely ruined his career and it was an unnecessary gamble by Benning. Sutter's overpaid too for his bottom 6 contribution. For the record Sven had better numbers then Jake going into his negotiations. Jake just got 2.55, and Sven got 3.37. I don't think you guys are accounting for the fact that nobody wanted to play in Vancouver during those years. Before we got Elias and Quinn, this was near the bottom of the list for free agents. I'll leave it at that. I'm disagreeing too much with someone that's named after my favourite Canucks' coach of all-time (no offense to Pat). In any given year, teams are always going to be finishing in the bottom five/bottom ten/undesirable spots. Of course it will be harder to sign free-agents, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to sign your targets, but the GM needs to be sensible about how much money and term they're planning to commit. That's all that most people are trying to say. There's a lot of evidence from other teams over the years, in places all of the standings, that you're able to sign good bottom-six players without overcommitting or overpaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Decent signing for that salary. He can move up and down the lineup when injuries strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Vanderhoek Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 14 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said: Another 20 pt forward for league minimum? But I was told these types of signings are impossible to make? Makes you wonder... Who told you that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Vanderhoek Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 7 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said: Except the point is that you don't need to commit multi-year deals with big money attached for bottom-six players. Yeah, these guys making 700K would have probably made a bit more money in normal circumstances, but no way were they ever going to get these outrageous 4x3M type of deals like the ones we have felt fit to hand out in years past. If you want to attract effective bottom six forwards like Beagle with Playoff pedigree and leadership on top of a reliable contributor on the ice you do need to dangle the carrot. The bottom six forwards making north of a million per that so many people complain about are the exact players teams like Edmonton or Buffalo could not attract to help push their youth along. It is absolutely mind boggling people keep complaining about bottom six players making millions, these guys get your young players to develop into proper NHLers not to mention having guys like Beagle and Sutter eating up PK minutes ( doing quite well among League peers ) and faceoffs freeing up Horvat to get more offensive time and opportunity is a win in itself. The common few that we keep referring to are actually playing their roles and doing well at it. These contracts won't effect expiring ELC deals and it was smart GM'ing to get them here when Benning did. Pushed Vancouver further along in their development without a doubt. Then there's comparing Dominik Simon who plays a heavy game and can dig out pucks but otherwise isn't anywhere nearly as valuable to the team. Shotgun with Sid inflates production..... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 10 hours ago, Alain Vigneault said: That's all that most people are trying to say. There's a lot of evidence from other teams over the years, in places all of the standings, that you're able to sign good bottom-six players without overcommitting or overpaying. No shortage of ironing here, as you continue to fluff Treliving.... But if you're going to make claims about 'evidence' - you might want to look at some. Considering the Flames have a $3.125 million 4th line center (Derek Ryan) - not to mention $5.25 million bottom six Milan Lucic....and 2.55 million 3C "18 year old." Milan Lucic Rating: 70.7#103 LW Sam Bennett Rating: 69.6#127 C Dillon Dube Rating: 70.3#108 RW FL3 Rating Rating: 70.19#29 FL3 Joakim Nordstrom Rating: 67.9#150 LW Derek Ryan Rating: 72.0#83 C Dominik Simon Rating: 70.1#132 RW FL4 Rating Rating: 69.98#24 FL4 Antoine Roussel Rating: 71.0#97 LW Adam Gaudette Rating: 70.2#130 C Brandon Sutter Rating: 70.1#131 RW FL3 Rating Rating: 70.44#26 FL3 Tyler Motte Rating: 68.8#144 LW Jay Beagle Zack MacEwen FL4 Rating Rating: 69.45#27 FL4 I think if you take yourself on over to Capfriendly - you wont' find quite as much humour in the relative cap hits of those two bottom 6 groups. And for further evidence - if you were to look at the bottom six of the defending Stanley Cup Champions Blues - you'd have found 5 million Tyler Bozak or 6.5 million Paul Stastny and 2.75 million Oskar Sundqvist in their bottom 6. Or for that matter...this year's SCC.... Barclay Goodrow Rating: 70.7#103 LW Yanni Gourde Rating: 72.9#61 C Blake Coleman Rating: 73.2#50 RW FL3 Rating Rating: 72.26#9 FL3 Patrick Maroon Rating: 72.8#49 LW Cedric Paquette Rating: 70.7#118 C Tyler Johnson Rating: 72.0#84 RW FL4 Rating Rating: 71.83#6 FL4 Gourde - $5.166 million Johnson - $5 million Coleman - $1.8 million Paquette - $1.65 million Clearly Benning isn't the only idiot in the NHL GM ranks with large cap hits in his bottom six.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 hours ago, oldnews said: No shortage of ironing here, as you continue to fluff Treliving.... But if you're going to make claims about 'evidence' - you might want to look at some. Considering the Flames have a $3.125 million 4th line center (Derek Ryan) - not to mention $5.25 million bottom six Milan Lucic....and 2.55 million 3C "18 year old." Milan Lucic Rating: 70.7#103 LW Sam Bennett Rating: 69.6#127 C Dillon Dube Rating: 70.3#108 RW FL3 Rating Rating: 70.19#29 FL3 Joakim Nordstrom Rating: 67.9#150 LW Derek Ryan Rating: 72.0#83 C Dominik Simon Rating: 70.1#132 RW FL4 Rating Rating: 69.98#24 FL4 Antoine Roussel Rating: 71.0#97 LW Adam Gaudette Rating: 70.2#130 C Brandon Sutter Rating: 70.1#131 RW FL3 Rating Rating: 70.44#26 FL3 Tyler Motte Rating: 68.8#144 LW Jay Beagle Zack MacEwen FL4 Rating Rating: 69.45#27 FL4 I think if you take yourself on over to Capfriendly - you wont' find quite as much humour in the relative cap hits of those two bottom 6 groups. And for further evidence - if you were to look at the bottom six of the defending Stanley Cup Champions Blues - you'd have found 5 million Tyler Bozak or 6.5 million Paul Stastny and 2.75 million Oskar Sundqvist in their bottom 6. Or for that matter...this year's SCC.... Barclay Goodrow Rating: 70.7#103 LW Yanni Gourde Rating: 72.9#61 C Blake Coleman Rating: 73.2#50 RW FL3 Rating Rating: 72.26#9 FL3 Patrick Maroon Rating: 72.8#49 LW Cedric Paquette Rating: 70.7#118 C Tyler Johnson Rating: 72.0#84 RW FL4 Rating Rating: 71.83#6 FL4 Gourde - $5.166 million Johnson - $5 million Coleman - $1.8 million Paquette - $1.65 million Clearly Benning isn't the only idiot in the NHL GM ranks with large cap hits in his bottom six.... oh come on man, don't you know that Calgary's dead cap money is more productive than our dead cap money? sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV. Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 A lot of you are really missing the point. If you think players like Derek Ryan, Milan Lucic, Tyler Johnson were "bottom-six" players when they signed their deals, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Deployment in the bottom six =/= pure bottom six players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert Long said: oh come on man, don't you know that Calgary's dead cap money is more productive than our dead cap money? sheesh. I don’t know if you are being sarcastic or not... It is, however, legitimately dumb for someone to compare Gourde, Johnson, Colburn, and Paquette to Baertschi, Eriksson, Sutter, and Beagle. They were a championship team because they had effective depth and the ELC contracts to be able to afford them. I take the bottom half of Tampa’s roster any day of the week over ours. Heck, cap hit aside... Tyler Johnson is probably our 5th best forward if he is on our team. He is a 45-50 point guy who got pushed down the lineup for just the past season because of players like Brayden Point. Edited October 23, 2020 by Provost 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 9 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said: If you want to attract effective bottom six forwards like Beagle with Playoff pedigree and leadership on top of a reliable contributor on the ice you do need to dangle the carrot. The bottom six forwards making north of a million per that so many people complain about are the exact players teams like Edmonton or Buffalo could not attract to help push their youth along. It is absolutely mind boggling people keep complaining about bottom six players making millions, these guys get your young players to develop into proper NHLers not to mention having guys like Beagle and Sutter eating up PK minutes ( doing quite well among League peers ) and faceoffs freeing up Horvat to get more offensive time and opportunity is a win in itself. The common few that we keep referring to are actually playing their roles and doing well at it. These contracts won't effect expiring ELC deals and it was smart GM'ing to get them here when Benning did. Pushed Vancouver further along in their development without a doubt. Well said. To top it all off, we are coming off the fourth most successful season in Canucks’ history. People that are on that Fire Benning bandwagon really need to look at the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, Provost said: I don’t know if you are being sarcastic or not... It is, however, legitimately dumb for someone to compare Gourde, Johnson, Colburn, and Paquette to Baertschi, Eriksson, Sutter, and Beagle. They were a championship team because they had effective depth and the ELC contracts to be able to afford them. I take the bottom half of Tampa’s roster any day of the week over ours. Heck, cap hit aside... Tyler Johnson is probably our 5th best forward if he is on our team. He is a 45-50 point guy who got pushed down the lineup for just the past season because of players like Brayden Point. I was being sarcastic, and talking about Calgary fwiw. On a side note, using terms like "legitimately dumb" inches this place closer to HF Boards, which is kind of what this place has been trending to lately. Your posts are usually better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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