HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Just now, The Lock said: They both go hand in hand. I'm talking about player development as much as I am talking about team building. Crosby and Malkin help, but they're not the only factors in player development. There's the player development staff, the coaching staff, other players on the team, a player's commitment... I could literally go on and on. The way you're talking, it sounds like you think it's only (and literally ONLY) Crosby and Malkin that makes an impact on the wingers. Well, if you take Crosby and Malkin and replace them with Hischer and Nick Suzuki while keeping everything else as is, do you think guys like Guentzel and Rust would have found their ceiling as quickly? You're kidding yourself if you think so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 22 minutes ago, MrCanuck94 said: If you develop a player properly in the AHL and they become NHL ready, they'll make an impact regardless of which roster they play on. Putting players in a position to succeed once they are NHL ready is a different conversation. When they are NHL ready, they still have lots of growing to do. Look at Petey? Now imagine if Petey played next to Crosby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNucks1 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Alflives said: Or maybe Sid and Gino (unlike Connor and Leon) actually play the game without the puck? also pretty sure crosby took a paycut. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, HKSR said: Well, if you take Crosby and Malkin and replace them with Hischer and Nick Suzuki while keeping everything else as is, do you think guys like Guentzel and Rust would have found their ceiling as quickly? You're kidding yourself if you think so. This doesn't disprove what I've said at all. Even if you take out Crosby and Malkin, Guentzel could still develop into a star forward. It might take longer (or maybe not even, we don't know). The fact that you acknowledge their ceiling's still as high without them in your sentence tells me you don't disagree with me here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 18 minutes ago, The Lock said: This doesn't disprove what I've said at all. Even if you take out Crosby and Malkin, Guentzel could still develop into a star forward. It might take longer (or maybe not even, we don't know). The fact that you acknowledge their ceiling's still as high without them in your sentence tells me you don't disagree with me here. Just because a player has a high ceiling, doesn't mean they will hit it. We have plenty of experience around that... see exhibit 1 and 2: Virtanen and Juolevi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, HKSR said: Just because a player has a high ceiling, doesn't mean they will hit it. We have plenty of experience around that... see exhibit 1 and 2: Virtanen and Juolevi. Again, how does this disprove what I'm saying about there being other factors as well? Also, how does what you are saying imply that it's only Crosby and Malkin that are the factors and nothing else? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Just now, The Lock said: Again, how does this disprove what I'm saying about there being other factors as well? Also, how does what you are saying imply that it's only Crosby and Malkin that are the factors and nothing else? I'm saying Crosby and Malkin are the primary reasons for Pittsburgh's success. I'm not sure how that is so hard to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Just now, HKSR said: I'm saying Crosby and Malkin are the primary reasons for Pittsburgh's success. I'm not sure how that is so hard to see. Then state that initially because you literally sounded like you were saying they were the only factors. Believe me. This is CDC. People have weird opinions at times so don't assume. Anyway, as far as the primary reason goes, that's up for debate but there are too many intangibles to be able to confirm or deny that. It also depends on the player in question. Some players are just that good to still reach their ceiling just as fast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, The Lock said: Then state that initially because you literally sounded like you were saying they were the only factors. Believe me. This is CDC. People have weird opinions at times so don't assume. Anyway, as far as the primary reason goes, that's up for debate but there are too many intangibles to be able to confirm or deny that. It also depends on the player in question. Some players are just that good to still reach their ceiling just as fast. You honestly think the Penguins would have won their cups without Crosby and Malkin? There is no debate there my friend. Edited February 17, 2022 by HKSR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 58 minutes ago, TNucks1 said: also pretty sure crosby took a paycut. Crosby's second deal percentage wise was identical to McDavids deal...without covid someone else would have already surpassed his pay. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, HKSR said: You honestly think the Penguins would have won their cups without Crosby and Malkin? There is no debate there my friend. You said you were talking about player development and not team building. Now you're talking about winning cups which is team building. So what are you debating here? You literally keep changing your debate every post along with putting words in my mouth that I never said. lol Sorry dude, but I'm honestly getting tired of these straw man arguments. Come up with a statement and stick with it because the only thing you've been consistent at is being inconsistent. Learn to read and understand what the other poster is saying, then actually think on what they're saying and respond accordingly. You'll find your debates go much farther. Edited February 17, 2022 by The Lock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 3 hours ago, HKSR said: I hear your chances of success increases once you have a Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Kris Letang trio in your core. The other guys just kinda fall into place after that. That core absolutely carried the load... but without a good supporting cast, they probably wouldn't win any cups, either. Management absolutely plays a huge role in building a championship team, especially with the salary cap. Finding value, instead of bleeding it, etc. Bad management would have fumbled the star power and overpaid for 3/4 line plugs or overpaid 6/7 D-men with top 4 salaries... And by the way, they had to suck a long time to get those players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 27 minutes ago, HKSR said: I'm saying Crosby and Malkin are the primary reasons for Pittsburgh's success. I'm not sure how that is so hard to see. 24 minutes ago, The Lock said: Then state that initially because you literally sounded like you were saying they were the only factors. Believe me. This is CDC. People have weird opinions at times so don't assume. Anyway, as far as the primary reason goes, that's up for debate but there are too many intangibles to be able to confirm or deny that. It also depends on the player in question. Some players are just that good to still reach their ceiling just as fast. 20 minutes ago, HKSR said: You honestly think the Penguins would have won their cups without Crosby and Malkin? There is no debate there my friend. I think you need to read more carefully. Start at the top and work your way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 hour ago, HKSR said: I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about player development. I think you're talking about building a team. I believe you have to move on with your life Benning. Obsession with old relations isn’t good at all… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Then why did you post this? 1 hour ago, HKSR said: I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about player development. I think you're talking about building a team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NHL97OneTimer Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Oregon.Duck said: This is like saying the Oilers should have had Cups already thanks to McDavid and Drai. Pure generational talent can only take you so far these days. Except the Pens had a great Dman and a great goalie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 @HKSR I have read everything and you're all over the place dude. Sorry, but I tried to see reason in it and I'm sure we can come up with some agreements in there.... but please, for the love of god, learn what a straw man argument is and please do the opposite of that. lol That's all I'm going to say. Good luck in your debating and endeavours. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dank.sinatra Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 4 hours ago, HKSR said: I hear your chances of success increases once you have a Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Kris Letang trio in your core. The other guys just kinda fall into place after that. Oilers say otherwise. Things haven't really fallen into to place over there despite having McD and Draisatl. Good management is crucial even if you already have the best players in the world. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Just now, dank.sinatra said: Oilers say otherwise. Things haven't really fallen into to place over there despite having McD and Draisatl. Good management is crucial even if you already have the best players in the world. I guess I should have included Fleury as well. Really, the core of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury could have won cups with almost any supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dank.sinatra Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 minute ago, HKSR said: I guess I should have included Fleury as well. Really, the core of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury could have won cups with almost any supporting cast. I doubt that but ok. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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