So You Wanna Build a Contender?

[Nucker 67]

They said they want to get younger and faster, so my guess is Miller, Pearson, Dickinson, and one of OEL or Myers will be leaving at some point this off season, at the least.

 

Sutter, Chiasson, Richardson, Petan and Halak are UFAs, and will probably be gone. I think they re-sign Hunt.

 

Horvat and/or Boeser could also be on their way out. I'll give Garland the benefit of the doubt. He only makes $5 for the next 4 years, he's still only 26, provides spark and energy, produces, draws penalties, etc.

 

Miller for:

 

(LW) Lysell and a 1st (#26)?

or

(RD) Lundkvist and a 1st (#27)?

or

(C) Newhook, a 2nd (they don't have a 1st), and a 2nd in 2023

 

I'd like it if they kick-started the prospects/young players. Canucks need quality, not quantity.

[JM_]

27 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Because I don't believe a rebuild that extreme is necessary, I also don't believe tanking really works anymore, not with the lottery and our luck being the way they are. If we make moves, take steps back, and draft a bit higher as we restructure things I'm fine with that though. I expect there to be growing pains anyway. 

 

We have some good assets to build around in Horvat, Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko. You need two good center's to compete in this league and Bo gives us at least one. I'm okay with Pettersson being given the rope to struggle and grow as a center if that's what it takes. Bo would be 28 when his extension kicks in, I'd be alright with a contract that takes him to 33-34 because I see him as a player who could be effective til at least 33. If he wanted 7-8 years though? I dunno, not as comfortable with that. I don't want to pay Miller til he's 36, same goes for Bo. 

 

I suppose what happens with Bo depends on what he wants in a contract. Six years is about as long as I'd be comfortable going. There's value in having vets, but I'm not a fan of contracts that roll into a player's mid/late 30's. 

 

For me everyone not named Horvat, Pettersson, Demko, Podz, and Hughes is on the table, that's just three more players than you mentiond. Horvat could be if his ask is too steep, but I think a deal gets done. But then again, depends on who and what's on the table as far as trade offers go.

 

Miller easily gets a 1st, that's not even the minimum. A fair offer likely involves a 1st, a young high end roster player, and a blue chip prospect. He's worth that. If all it took was a 1st he'd have been gone at the deadline imo. But yeah, I'm fully on board the trade Miller train.

 

I'd keep Bo, we have nobody else in the system who does what he does for us, and I'm fine extending him and keeping him around as one of the team's vets. I see him still being worth having round at 33. The max I'd give him is six years though, as mentioned. He's moveable, sure, but because of those roots I think he's more likely to stay than go. 

 

I'm a fan of Bo, I like him as a captain.

 

I love how Hansen doesn't leave the kid gloves on for his old team, it's refreshing. KB3 too. If these guys see it I don't see how some fans don't. 

So who replaces Miller at C? Petey, Bo, Lammikko is pretty darn thin. 

 

Strome might be an interesting choice, but isn't he going to be getting 6.5 to 7 range? 

 

Please don't say Kadri, I think I'd have to switch to being a Seattle fan if that happens. 

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2023/caphit/all/center/ufa

 

 

If we really are going to move Miller, I'd sure like to see a Horvat extension first. 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by JM_

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, JM_ said:

So who replaces Miller at C? Petey, Bo, Lammikko is pretty darn thin. 

 

Strome might be an interesting choice, but isn't he going to be getting 6.5 to 7 range? 

 

Please don't say Kadri, I think I'd have to switch to being a Seattle fan if that happens. 

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2023/caphit/all/center/ufa

 

 

If we really are going to move Miller, I'd sure like to see a Horvat extension first. 

 

I'd run with Pettersson and see if he can do it, but I'd try and play those top two lines fairly evenly. I'd place emphasis on upgrading our 3-4C's. Not even sure I'd keep Lammikko at center if there's an upgrade to be had, having wingers who can play center is pretty common in this league, he could slide over. Even if Petey falters, these next 2-3 seasons are likely going to be stepping stones anyway. 

 

I do agree that extending Horvat before moving Miller makes sense. 

[alt kilgore]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:44 PM, Baggins said:

No such thing as guaranteed contender status. Tanking guarantees nothing. The hard part of becoming a contender is building a team around your talent. There is talent there already. They need to build the right mix around it. 

 

Benning never mentioned contender when he arrived. The message said over and over and over was, "Contend for a playoff spot while transitioning to a younger team". You hear and see what you want. Benning says contend for the playoffs, you hear contender. You see a team win the cup that tanked, but ignore the teams that tanked and never come close to the cup. 

 

Btw, Canucks fans would have classified Forsling a bust long before now. It took Forsling 6 years to become a borderline top 4 d-man. Florida claimed him off waivers. I never understood the whining about that trade.

 

I agree with your first paragraph.

 

I looked for a quote from him about contending for a playoff spot back then, but I can't find one like that.  Maybe you can. But even if thats the case, to me, any GM saying his goal is the playoffs, infers that that once in the playoffs, they will be contenders.  Not the top rated contenders, but contenders none the less. A Cinderella run to the final is not unheard of.  Maybe just different semantics. 

 

What he did say was “this is a team we can turn around in a hurry.”  And since we had just been President Trophy winners a couple years before, that implied we'd be back in the game, contending at a high level.

 

The whining I was doing about trading Forsling wasn't about Forsling.  It was whining about Benning.   Obviously JB didn't know then one way or the other how long Forsling would take to develop and how far he'd go.  The criticism is in his attitude and seemingly 180 direction spin to what we were all expecting from a 'draft and develop' GM.  He had 2 first round picks for the 2014 draft thanks to the Kesler trade. He subsequently traded away one first round pick in McCann and kept his other draft guru special...Virtanen.  Demko was a good pick, (one promoted by his nemesis Judd Brackett) Then mismanaged his Tryamkin pick with the help of his rookie coach.  He also traded away a second, for Vey.  That was all in his first draft.

 

But about "tanking guarantees nothing". If by tanking you mean building through the draft.  IMO its more about management of those draft picks.  Edmonton proved just bringing in all the old boys club from the past as managers doesn't always work. Picking forwards and then refusing to trade those prospects for help on defense, or goal was a mistake. But I think it works more often than it doesn't. It takes a smart GM and a willing owner. It does take some luck too in the draft lottery.  Which we are due. And it doesn't have to be scorched earth either. It can be a mix of retool, rebuild.  Its about getting that balance right, which is different for each team. JB just got that wrong. He should have balanced towards more draft development and patience into his philosophy. 

 

On a team that was in some kind of quasi rebuild, it is unconscionable to understand that over the 7 and half years, Benning ended up not only not adding to his draft pick totals, and/or prospects from those picks, but less than what he normally would have gotten. This wasn't a contender...as you rightly pointed out.  We needed an army, as the late great Botchford yelled to deaf ears back then. Who today would be a full fledged force to keep us perennially competitive with a full stable on the farm

 

 

 

 

 

[EddieVedder]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Because I don't believe a rebuild that extreme is necessary, I also don't believe tanking really works anymore, not with the lottery and our luck being the way they are. If we make moves, take steps back, and draft a bit higher as we restructure things I'm fine with that though. I expect there to be growing pains anyway. 

 

We have some good assets to build around in Horvat, Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko. You need two good center's to compete in this league and Bo gives us at least one. I'm okay with Pettersson being given the rope to struggle and grow as a center if that's what it takes. Bo would be 28 when his extension kicks in, I'd be alright with a contract that takes him to 33-34 because I see him as a player who could be effective til at least 33. If he wanted 7-8 years though? I dunno, not as comfortable with that. I don't want to pay Miller til he's 36, same goes for Bo. 

 

I suppose what happens with Bo depends on what he wants in a contract. Six years is about as long as I'd be comfortable going. There's value in having vets, but I'm not a fan of contracts that roll into a player's mid/late 30's. 

 

For me everyone not named Horvat, Pettersson, Demko, Podz, and Hughes is on the table, that's just three more players than you mentiond. Horvat could be if his ask is too steep, but I think a deal gets done. But then again, depends on who and what's on the table as far as trade offers go.

 

Miller easily gets a 1st, that's not even the minimum. A fair offer likely involves a 1st, a young high end roster player, and a blue chip prospect. He's worth that. If all it took was a 1st he'd have been gone at the deadline imo. But yeah, I'm fully on board the trade Miller train.

 

I'd keep Bo, we have nobody else in the system who does what he does for us, and I'm fine extending him and keeping him around as one of the team's vets. I see him still being worth having round at 33. The max I'd give him is six years though, as mentioned. He's moveable, sure, but because of those roots I think he's more likely to stay than go. 

 

I'm a fan of Bo, I like him as a captain.

 

I love how Hansen doesn't leave the kid gloves on for his old team, it's refreshing. KB3 too. If these guys see it I don't see how some fans don't. 

Man that 2011 was so good. Third line of Malhotra, Hansen, Torres.. thats depth

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

5 hours ago, Baggins said:

Well when Burke came in with the order to cut payroll, and stop the financial bleeding, after trading away Bure and Mogilny (among others) attendance dropped below the Coyotes. And he didn't actually do a full on team tank going after only unproven prospects and picks in return. Benning tried to put a team on the ice with a chance, even if slim, while rebuilding and attendance didn't fall off a cliff, like it did for Burke, throughout it.

We will have to wait and see, then.  Everybody (including management) will have a better idea of how good/bad the 22-23 team will be at the end of the season next month when they interview Allvin and Rutherford.  Hopefully COVID will be a problem of the past and people will... trust the process.

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

Man that 2011 was so good. Third line of Malhotra, Hansen, Torres.. thats depth

I loved Torres, he was a wrecking ball out there and we needed that. I wish we had someone like that, but someone who could reel it in a bit more. 

 

The game has changed and he was a bit of a throwback, I hate the way the league hammered him only to continue to pick and choose when they took headshots seriously. Same old NHL wheel of disciplinary justice. 

[aGENT]

13 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I'd run with Pettersson and see if he can do it, but I'd try and play those top two lines fairly evenly. I'd place emphasis on upgrading our 3-4C's. Not even sure I'd keep Lammikko at center if there's an upgrade to be had, having wingers who can play center is pretty common in this league, he could slide over. Even if Petey falters, these next 2-3 seasons are likely going to be stepping stones anyway. 

 

I do agree that extending Horvat before moving Miller makes sense. 

Yup, let Mr. 4 points last night run with 1C and upgrade 3C with one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm. Heck I wouldn't even hate bringing a guy like Richardson (or similar) back on 1 year deals near league min.

 

Pettersson, Horvat, Paul, Richardson, Lammiko...that's just fine C depth IMO, all while we re-jig our D to not be such a dog's breakfast/get younger/get faster/get less cap heavy.

Edited April 7, 2022 by aGENT

[EddieVedder]

10 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I loved Torres, he was a wrecking ball out there and we needed that. I wish we had someone like that, but someone who could reel it in a bit more. 

 

The game has changed and he was a bit of a throwback, I hate the way the league hammered him only to continue to pick and choose when they took headshots seriously. Same old NHL wheel of disciplinary justice. 

The way this new league is trending, we will see women playing in it soon. (Lord i hope not)

Then that wackjob jen botterills wet dream will have come true.

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Yup, let Mr. 4 points last night run with 1C and upgrade 3C with one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm. Heck I wouldn't even hate bringing a guy like Richardson (or similar) back on 1 year deals near league min.

 

Pettersson, Horvat, Paul, Richardson, Lammiko...that's just fine C depth IMO, all while we re-jig our D to not be such a dog's breakfast/get younger/get faster/get less cap heavy.

It makes so much more sense to give him a shot to run with it than placing an expensive UFA roadblock up front, I don't really care for the UFA center options either. He's got the pedigree, we just need to insulate him and improve the D our bottom six center's as you said. Quality center depth, but built properly (not three top six center's down the middle), is key. We missed Sutter, we missed Beagle. Building from the net out and improving our PK would help a lottttt. 

 

Petey's got the talent, he's just gotta get better on draws. He's a smart defensive player. 

 

2 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

The way this new league is trending, we will see women playing in it soon. (Lord i hope not)

Then that wackjob jen botterills wet dream will have come true.

I'd be shocked, but you never know. 

[TNucks1]

On 4/4/2022 at 8:50 AM, NUCKER67 said:

OTT has been the laughing stock of the league for many years, but Sens fans can finally be excited about their future with Tkachuk, Stutzle, Batherson, Norris, Formenton, Sanderson, Bransstrom, Chabot, etc.  They still have work to do, but they're putting together a nice young core.

 

Is OTT going to sign a 30 year old to a 6 year contract worth $9 a season?  Unlikely, but I think this young core of OTT's will contend in a couple of years. 

 

By comparison, the Canucks young core is: Pettersson, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Dermott and Hughes. Maybe add Rathbone.  Not good enough.

 

 

Signing murray, was a big mistake for em

 

[Baggins]

19 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

I agree with your first paragraph.

 

I looked for a quote from him about contending for a playoff spot back then, but I can't find one like that.  Maybe you can. But even if thats the case, to me, any GM saying his goal is the playoffs, infers that that once in the playoffs, they will be contenders.  Not the top rated contenders, but contenders none the less. A Cinderella run to the final is not unheard of.  Maybe just different semantics. 

 

What he did say was “this is a team we can turn around in a hurry.”  And since we had just been President Trophy winners a couple years before, that implied we'd be back in the game, contending at a high level.

 

The whining I was doing about trading Forsling wasn't about Forsling.  It was whining about Benning.   Obviously JB didn't know then one way or the other how long Forsling would take to develop and how far he'd go.  The criticism is in his attitude and seemingly 180 direction spin to what we were all expecting from a 'draft and develop' GM.  He had 2 first round picks for the 2014 draft thanks to the Kesler trade. He subsequently traded away one first round pick in McCann and kept his other draft guru special...Virtanen.  Demko was a good pick, (one promoted by his nemesis Judd Brackett) Then mismanaged his Tryamkin pick with the help of his rookie coach.  He also traded away a second, for Vey.  That was all in his first draft.

 

But about "tanking guarantees nothing". If by tanking you mean building through the draft.  IMO its more about management of those draft picks.  Edmonton proved just bringing in all the old boys club from the past as managers doesn't always work. Picking forwards and then refusing to trade those prospects for help on defense, or goal was a mistake. But I think it works more often than it doesn't. It takes a smart GM and a willing owner. It does take some luck too in the draft lottery.  Which we are due. And it doesn't have to be scorched earth either. It can be a mix of retool, rebuild.  Its about getting that balance right, which is different for each team. JB just got that wrong. He should have balanced towards more draft development and patience into his philosophy. 

 

On a team that was in some kind of quasi rebuild, it is unconscionable to understand that over the 7 and half years, Benning ended up not only not adding to his draft pick totals, and/or prospects from those picks, but less than what he normally would have gotten. This wasn't a contender...as you rightly pointed out.  We needed an army, as the late great Botchford yelled to deaf ears back then. Who today would be a full fledged force to keep us perennially competitive with a full stable on the farm

 

 

 

 

 

Nonsense. Does anybody actually believe there are 16 actual contenders every year? Teams labelled 'contenders' are the ones favored, or as having a legitimate chance, for the cup. But, and it's a big but, anyteam that makes a the playoffs has a chance. Even if it's a slim chance. Was Montreal a legimate contender going into the playoffs last year? No, but they are certainly an example of "anything can happen" if you make the playoffs. You have to make the playoffs to have a shot. Being a longshot and being a legitimate contender are two very different things. Typically there's about six teams going into the playoffs labelled as contenders. All Benning said was make the playoffs and anything can happen. That's a far cry from declaring we'll be contending for the cup.

 

Benning said from day one he wanted to be a playoff team every year. He also talked about transitioning to a younger team. Trading Forsling for Clendenning was doing exactly that. Trading for an NHL ready AHL prospect to inject youth into the lineup. It's exactly the same thing without waiting 4+ years for a late round pick to develop. We had nothing on the farm worth that shot. Knowing we needed some youth on the team to replace guys aging out can you just wait 4+ years? Youth is youth regardless of where it comes from. Teams that believe they are contenders don't trade for guys like Clendenning, Vey, Baertschi etc to insert into the roster. Those were just rebuilding moves inserting youth to the roster. Those AHL players were prospects. Prospects are prospects whether drafted or traded for.

[Baggins]

16 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I loved Torres, he was a wrecking ball out there and we needed that. I wish we had someone like that, but someone who could reel it in a bit more. 

 

The game has changed and he was a bit of a throwback, I hate the way the league hammered him only to continue to pick and choose when they took headshots seriously. Same old NHL wheel of disciplinary justice. 

He just couldn't seem to adapt to the head contact rule and he was a headhunter. Had he been able to adapt to hitting into the body he would have had a longer career. Many don't seem to get head contact is not illegal when hitting into the body. It's picking the head, without hitting into the body, that's illegal. There's a fine line there where a player can be just a little off and it's a suspension. But Torres was terrible for picking the head and just never learned from his suspensions.

[Psycho_Path]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:40 AM, JM_ said:

the way I look at it is, we aren't going to get a Hedman, Matthews or McDavid out of any trade for Miller or Boeser. We may get good pieces but we are not getting that, barring some miracle miss by 20+ scouts.

 

So if we aren't rebuilding around our core guys, then we need to go full tank. Get as many picks as possible sure, but if we're not going full tank we won't have any top 5 talent anyway. 

 

I see it as pretty binary. We can construct a team imo thats quite similar to LA's cup teams with the core we have now, OR go full tank.

 

I don't see a point in just moving Miller and expecting a miracle run with Chytil and Schneider. 

"then we need to have intentionally unwatchable hockey for 3+ years and hope the NHL isn't rigged and we can win the lottery"

 

Team tank ftw!

Edited April 7, 2022 by Psycho_Path

[Baggins]

6 minutes ago, Psycho_Path said:

"then we need to have intentionally unwatchable hockey for 3+ years and hope the NHL isn't rigged and we can win the lottery"

 

Team tank ftw!

The draft doesn't need to be rigged. The odds are you'll move down if you're among the worst teams. Worst team in the league has almost a 75% chance of dropping. They have a 55% chance of 3rd overall. The 5th worst team has 17% chance of moving up and a 61% chance of moving down. The odds aren't good. It's not until 7th worst that the odds are actually in favor of moving up or staying the same, with a 46% chance of dropping position. From positions 1 to 6 the odds are in favor of dropping position.

[Psycho_Path]

3 minutes ago, Baggins said:

The draft doesn't need to be rigged. The odds are you'll move down if you're among the worst teams. Worst team in the league has almost a 75% chance of dropping. They have a 55% chance of 3rd overall. The 5th worst team has 17% chance of moving up and a 61% chance of moving down. The odds aren't good. It's not until 7th worst that the odds are actually in favor of moving up or staying the same, with a 46% chance of dropping position. From positions 1 to 6 the odds are in favor of dropping position.

True enough the NHL doesn't have to rig it for the odds to be bad enough anyways, but I'm not going to trust that draw until they actually show it happening.

[Baggins]

13 minutes ago, Psycho_Path said:

True enough the NHL doesn't have to rig it for the odds to be bad enough anyways, but I'm not going to trust that draw until they actually show it happening.

Reps from every team (team option) are invited plus some media people to witness the ball drops and have a copy of the guides showing numbers assigned to each team. They have to leave their phones at the door and can't leave the room until the reveal is done live on TV. Cameras are rolling on the draw every year. On the upside there's a buffet and beverages supplied while they're locked away for hours. 

 

The obvious reason they don't show the draw live on TV is it reveals first overall pick first, then second, then third. Not much of a show. It's a longer show starting at 15 (now 16) and letting the suspense build to the first overall pick. People have to watch the whole show to know where their team drafts and who got that number spot. It just makes for a better show. Unless you think this would make for better TV....

 

 

 

[Psycho_Path]

13 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Reps from every team (team option) are invited plus some media people to witness the ball drops and have a copy of the guides showing numbers assigned to each team. They have to leave their phones at the door and can't leave the room until the reveal is done live on TV. Cameras are rolling on the draw every year. On the upside there's a buffet and beverages supplied while they're locked away for hours. 

 

The obvious reason they don't show the draw live on TV is it reveals first overall pick first, then second, then third. Not much of a show. It's a longer show starting at 15 (now 16) and letting the suspense build to the first overall pick. People have to watch the whole show to know where their team drafts and who got that number spot. It just makes for a better show. Unless you think this would make for better TV....

 

 

 

Didn't know that. Thanks for posting.

[BigTramFan]

All this talk of "you need to draft your core to be a contender"...is not necessarily true!

 

Look at Vegas. They are contenders. The only expansion drafted players they have left are Karlsson, Marchessault, Carrier, McNabb. And those guys aren't the core.

 

Vegas either traded for their core or signed them as UFA. It can be done.

[alt kilgore]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

Nonsense. Does anybody actually believe there are 16 actual contenders every year? Teams labelled 'contenders' are the ones favored, or as having a legitimate chance, for the cup. But, and it's a big but, anyteam that makes a the playoffs has a chance. Even if it's a slim chance. Was Montreal a legimate contender going into the playoffs last year? No, but they are certainly an example of "anything can happen" if you make the playoffs. You have to make the playoffs to have a shot. Being a longshot and being a legitimate contender are two very different things. Typically there's about six teams going into the playoffs labelled as contenders. All Benning said was make the playoffs and anything can happen. That's a far cry from declaring we'll be contending for the cup.

 

Benning said from day one he wanted to be a playoff team every year. He also talked about transitioning to a younger team. Trading Forsling for Clendenning was doing exactly that. Trading for an NHL ready AHL prospect to inject youth into the lineup. It's exactly the same thing without waiting 4+ years for a late round pick to develop. We had nothing on the farm worth that shot. Knowing we needed some youth on the team to replace guys aging out can you just wait 4+ years? Youth is youth regardless of where it comes from. Teams that believe they are contenders don't trade for guys like Clendenning, Vey, Baertschi etc to insert into the roster. Those were just rebuilding moves inserting youth to the roster. Those AHL players were prospects. Prospects are prospects whether drafted or traded for.

 

So try telling any of the teams that make it into the playoffs this year that they are not contending for the Cup. That they should just be lucky they made it to the post season, and just let the REAL contenders take it from here.

 

Look, I get where you are coming from. I gather you mean they wouldn't have been top tier contenders, and no one would have picked them to win, if they'd made the playoffs in '16, '17, '18 ...  But they would still be contenders. Long shot contenders. What else would you call them?  I think its all semantics. 

 

All that said....IF by "contenders", which I have yet to see a JB quote for this, Jim was meaning "squeak into the playoffs,  and count the year a success"   Then I would ask you WHY?  If you believe that Benning saw the team as being miles away from ever achieving anything post season even if we got there, then WHY would he even go that route? Why dump picks and prospects for support players?  Why dip into the FA market to sign LE to a 6 x 6? Why as you describe his motive..."make the playoffs and anything can happen"?  (Surely by "anything" you don't mean contend for the Cup though right?). 

 

So why would a GM sacrifice so much of the farm, especially from a position of already being depleted of good prospects, push a lot of his chips in, spend right to cap, year after year, if he deep down, only expected them to barely make the playoffs?  Is that good GMing to you? Living "day to day" or season to season? Where he dumps more potential prospects, buys out more contracts from his last failed foray, and trades for and signs as FAs, another slew of overpriced vets.  So he can try and squeak in again, earn his boss some first round playoff profits, and call it a season?   Are you endorsing this kind of "live day to day" GMing for your Vancouver Canucks? 

 

IMO good riddance.  He was in way over his head. And had no clear direction at any time. I don't believe he'll ever get another GM job in league again.