So You Wanna Build a Contender?

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Hard to say, it depends on what we get in return and I'm not gonna pretend I've got a functional crystal coconut. 

 

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

It wouldn't, if Miller goes I think one of Garland/Boeser/Myers would go too. Moving Miller wouldn't be enough imo.

 

As for Horvat, I think he's more likely to stay because of the roots he's got here. Unlike Miller he was drafted here, came up under the Sedin's, got married and has started a family here. He's the captain, he's likely got friends here. He won't agree with every move made regarding who comes and goes, but he does have friends here on the team. Does all the aforementioned mean he'll re-sign? Of course not, but I do believe there are more factors keeping a Horvat here than a Miller. Next season will be his ninth as a Canuck.

 

But yes, if it comes down to it and it doesn't look like he'll extend in the offseason or prior to next season's deadline I'd heavily consider trading Bo too. We're not a team that can allow top tier assets to walk for nothing, we don't have the organizational depth to take those kind of hits. 

unless Bo wore Leaf's pj's growing up. Bo's in his prime and I just can't see him going through yet another retool, but thats just my 2 cents.

 

It all comes down to whether or not you think Demko, Miller, Bo, Petey, Hughes are enough of a base to try to quickly support or not. Can JR do enough in 1 offseason to make the team competitive? its a lot to ask. 

 

[EP Phone Home]

The area we need to improve on sadly is a position that takes the longest to develop. That is defense. One would argue goaltending is the longest and I agree to some extent with that. However you need one stud backstopper but you need 6 reliable defenseman and we only have 2 long term players on our D corps in Hughes and Rathbone. We need a hell of a lot more on the blue line to compete. Sadly top 4 D are always hard to acquire and mostly need to be drafted  and developed. 
 

This isn’t a quick fix because our D will need 2-4 years to develop. Trades would be a easier route then development but we just don’t have the desirable assets (Miller Boeser and Garland might be it) to make the moves to rebuild our blue line. We have the goalie, we will still need a top 6 F or two but that’s more attainable than doing a makeover on the backend. We need this fixing more than anything. I hope Some players like Woo turn out in the pipeline but as it stands our blue line is atrocious and needs the most TLC atm. 

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

The area we need to improve on sadly is a position that takes the longest to develop. That is defense. One would argue goaltending is the longest and I agree to some extent with that. However you need one stud backstopper but you need 6 reliable defenseman and we only have 2 long term players on our D corps in Hughes and Rathbone. We need a hell of a lot more on the blue line to compete. Sadly top 4 D are always hard to acquire and mostly need to be drafted  and developed. 
 

This isn’t a quick fix because our D will need 2-4 years to develop. Trades would be a easier route then development but we just don’t have the desirable assets (Miller Boeser and Garland might be it) to make the moves to rebuild our blue line. We have the goalie, we will still need a top 6 F or two but that’s more attainable than doing a makeover on the backend. We need this fixing more than anything. I hope Some players like Woo turn out in the pipeline but as it stands our blue line is atrocious and needs the most TLC atm. 

if we moved on from Boeser, we'd have the cap space for Klingberg or Manson as UFAs. 

[EP Phone Home]

38 minutes ago, JM_ said:

if we moved on from Boeser, we'd have the cap space for Klingberg or Manson as UFAs. 

That’s a good start and we

definitely need to have that RHD for Quinn.  Klingberg will be getting a big free agent deal this off season and we still have to be smart with our cap space. Mason wouldn’t be as rich of a deal. This would fix the longtime need of a full time partner for Quinn.

 

I still believe we need a drafted replacement for OEL as he will be slowing down with his age and eventually need someone to replace him with his minutes and offensive output. Would like another reliable RHD to replace Myers eventually as well. These two are not young and we need a contingency plan to replace their minutes. This will require at least two blue chip Dmen to cook in our pipeline. 
 

Plus depth on the backend and I don’t mean the bottom of the barrel depth that Poolman,Burroughs,Hunt provide. We will have injuries and those names just are not good enough. It will all come along with having more picks to restock the cupboard.
 

 

If I’m PA/JR I am taking a page out of the Kelowna Rockets book and going from a goalie factory to a blue line factory.  

Edited April 6, 2022 by EP Phone Home

[Coconuts]

51 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

unless Bo wore Leaf's pj's growing up. Bo's in his prime and I just can't see him going through yet another retool, but thats just my 2 cents.

 

It all comes down to whether or not you think Demko, Miller, Bo, Petey, Hughes are enough of a base to try to quickly support or not. Can JR do enough in 1 offseason to make the team competitive? its a lot to ask. 

 

One offseason? Nah, but it's the future they'd have to sell him on. This team needs some significant surgery but it's not going to be completely turned around in one or two offseasons. I just don't see it. 

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

One offseason? Nah, but it's the future they'd have to sell him on. This team needs some significant surgery but it's not going to be completely turned around in one or two offseasons. I just don't see it. 

then why not go full tank then? stop trying to fix Bennings mistakes and rebuild the whole thing other than Petey and Hughes. 

[EP Phone Home]

16 minutes ago, JM_ said:

then why not go full tank then? stop trying to fix Bennings mistakes and rebuild the whole thing other than Petey and Hughes. 

Don’t forget this guy! Hopefully we have our act together in 4 years before his deal ends. But we need our stud in net. Whether TD wants to stay this long without success is another story but until that road is crossed we definitely need him a part of this core.

Edited April 6, 2022 by EP Phone Home

[JM_]

Just now, EP Phone Home said:

Don’t forget this guy! Hopefully we have our act together in 4 years before his deal ends. But we need our stud in net. Wether TD wants to stay this long without success is another story but until that road is crossed we definitely need him a part of this core.

he's the main reason I like the idea of finding better support players, vs. the 2-3 year reset plan. 

[Mo Grit]

 

5 minutes ago, JM_ said:

then why not go full tank then?  ..... other than Petey and Hughes. 

Agreed, just look at all the salaried help we got to look into it:

 

President, Hockey Operations
General Manager
Vice-President, Hockey Operations
3 Assistant General Managers
2 Special Advisor to the General Manager
Senior Director, Player Development & General Manager
Senior Advisor
Assistant Director, Player Development
President, Canucks Sports & Entertainment, Business Operations
COO/CFO & Alternate Governor, NHL
Executive Vice President & General Manager, Rogers Arena
Vice President, Communications, Fan and Community Engagement
Vice President, People
Vice President, Finance
Vice President & General Counsel
Vice President, Live Entertainment
Director, Retail Operations
Executive Chef
Director, Event Operations & Security
Senior Director, Corporate Partnerships
Senior Director, Facility Operations & Engineering
Director, Quick Service
Senior Director, Fan & Community Engagement
Director, Membership & Premium Sales
Director, Game Entertainment
Director, Restaurants
Director, IT Operations
Director, Hospitality IT

Head Coach
4 Assistant coaches
Video coach
Director of Goaltending and Head Goaltending Coach
Equipment Manager
Assistant Equipment Manager
Equipment Assistant
Game Dressing Room Attendants x4
Dressing Room Attendant
Director of Strength & Conditioning
Director of Medical Services, Head Athletic Therapist
Director, Applied Sport Science
Assistant Athletic Therapist
Rehab Therapist
Athletic Therapist
Assistant Strength & Conditioning Coach
Mental Performance Consultant
Team Physician
Primary Team Physician
Team Optometrist
Team Chiropractor
Team Dentist

Director, Professional Scouting
4 x Professional Scouts
Chief Amateur Scout 
Associate Chief Amateur Scout
Director, Amateur Scouting
then 11 x Amateur Scouts

 

Still, even all these King's horses can't get Humpty's men ready for an opening face-off.

The Mental Performance Consultant should resign in disgrace, followed by whoever hired the DJ. 

Likely was the Vice President, People.

 

 

[DrJockitch]

It is a tough position. Team that gives you flashes of hope and has some genuinely good players. 
Salary cap is a mess with boat anchor contracts and few blue chip prospects coming. 
Team is really just too small in a lot of the high minute players. 
If I was in charge I would spend assets on nothing until I figure out a partner for Quinn. 
Nobody is trading a high end Right D prospect for BB with a 7.5M and walk possibility hanging over their heads for a goal scorer who has never scored 30.

If can find Q a partner then you can run OEL-Myers as second pair. Those contracts just aren’t movable. Schenn could do for Rathbone what he has done for Hughes as third pairing. Myers may be tradeable in last year of deal at deadline with retention. 
I hope there is some shaking of the tree, want to see what PA’s vision looks like. 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

3 hours ago, hammertime said:

Lost and directionless like Detroit?

 

give it 2 years. They have

#1 Goalie Cossa and top D pairing Edvinsson Seider up front  Raymond Zadina and their hard mins 3c Veleno they are building correctly they just aren't there yet. They are putting the right pieces in place though to be able to do a tweak here and there to get them to contender status long before the canucks will. 

Two years?  Maybe they make playoffs in 2 years but they are not going to peak until 4 years.  My point is that these things can take even longer than expected.  Larkin is almost 26.  He hasn’t seen playoff action since he was a rookie.  If we do a rebuild, those babies like Pettersson and Hughes will probably be 30-year old veterans by the time Vancouver is considered playoff contenders.  I just don't know if ownership and paying fans can put up with that many years of "the process".

[EP Phone Home]

33 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

It is a tough position. Team that gives you flashes of hope and has some genuinely good players. 
Salary cap is a mess with boat anchor contracts and few blue chip prospects coming. 
Team is really just too small in a lot of the high minute players. 
If I was in charge I would spend assets on nothing until I figure out a partner for Quinn. 
Nobody is trading a high end Right D prospect for BB with a 7.5M and walk possibility hanging over their heads for a goal scorer who has never scored 30.

If can find Q a partner then you can run OEL-Myers as second pair. Those contracts just aren’t movable. Schenn could do for Rathbone what he has done for Hughes as third pairing. Myers may be tradeable in last year of deal at deadline with retention. 
I hope there is some shaking of the tree, want to see what PA’s vision looks like. 

Agreed with first order of business is to have a RD partner for Quinn. Also have to have a contingency plan for when Myers is gone. Ideally we really should be looking at an overhaul on our right side. A position that is always sought after and teams always seem to never have enough of. 
 

The tragedy of the last two managements was the failure of not able to restock/supplement our backend. Aside from Hughes and maybe Rathbone. Forsling and Connauton were traded and but not pure examples of developing D men. Chris Tanev was a college free agent signing and the best D man that was developed out of the MG era. Good find by Dave Gagner who was our director of player development. Chris and Sam Gagner were childhood buddies and that really helped the Canucks finding a gem in Tanev. Draft wise think we have to go back to the Nonis era where we had Luc Bourdon(RIP), and Alex Edler.
 

 

Whatever happens next with this management team. This issue of not drafting/developing our own D has to change. It’s far too risky or expensive of assets to do it otherwise (trade/over pay in free agency). 
 

I too would love to see what PA’s vision is. We shall see what unfolds in a few months.

Edited April 6, 2022 by EP Phone Home

[Sativika]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Hard to say, it depends on what we get in return and I'm not gonna pretend I've got a functional crystal coconut. 

 

It wouldn't, if Miller goes I think one of Garland/Boeser/Myers would go too. Moving Miller wouldn't be enough imo.

 

As for Horvat, I think he's more likely to stay because of the roots he's got here. Unlike Miller he was drafted here, came up under the Sedin's, got married and has started a family here. He's the captain, he's likely got friends here. He won't agree with every move made regarding who comes and goes, but he does have friends here on the team. Does all the aforementioned mean he'll re-sign? Of course not, but I do believe there are more factors keeping a Horvat here than a Miller. Next season will be his ninth as a Canuck.

 

But yes, if it comes down to it and it doesn't look like he'll extend in the offseason or prior to next season's deadline I'd heavily consider trading Bo too. We're not a team that can allow top tier assets to walk for nothing, we don't have the organizational depth to take those kind of hits. 

It always depends on what one gets in return. Especially for aforementioned players in your 2nd sentence. I'd be okay to trade any of the above. Miller definitely must be looked at for a trade, as he's the best asset we have that teams want. The other players I don't think will get us much more than later round picks, prospects or both. I think Miller will net us all that and perhaps a useable roster player ta' boot! Although anything resembling what we gave up to get him...probably not. I'd be surprised if we got a 1st rounder.

 

I think Bo should stay. Really, ever since he got established here as our leader, he never did get wingers that allowed him success. Sure Baertschi was one, and seems Pearson, and or Hogs are in the mix, but there seemed never to be a consummate line for Bo. No "Lotto," "West Coast Express," or, "Mattress" line per se, but you get my meaning. 

Now, just because he's got roots here doesn't mean he's not movable. As always, if the price is right, then so be it. But....I think we keep him for reasons of his leadership with our present young core group, and upcoming young stars!

[EddieVedder]

4 hours ago, JM_ said:

 

unless Bo wore Leaf's pj's growing up. Bo's in his prime and I just can't see him going through yet another retool, but thats just my 2 cents.

 

It all comes down to whether or not you think Demko, Miller, Bo, Petey, Hughes are enough of a base to try to quickly support or not. Can JR do enough in 1 offseason to make the team competitive? its a lot to ask. 

 

You lose Bo, it will be years before you find another player like him.   Hes just entering his prime.   

[JM_]

1 minute ago, EddieVedder said:

You lose Bo, it will be years before you find another player like him.   Hes just entering his prime.   

Bo would be the most sought after player as a UFA, the guys been remarkably consistent, never been a whiner or goon. Can you imagine him in the Leafs lineup? 

 

I dunno, I think Benning made a lot of mistakes we're trying to deal with, but we're so strong up the middle right now from Demko out through our C depth. Surely we can find a way to bring in players with more grit than the plugs we have now like Petan and Chiasson. 

[D-Money]

1 hour ago, Sativika said:

I think Miller will net us all that and perhaps a useable roster player ta' boot! Although anything resembling what we gave up to get him...probably not. I'd be surprised if we got a 1st rounder.

Wait... what???

 

We acquired Miller when he was a good depth player on a team with cap issues. Now he's a top-10 scorer. Of course we'll get more than we gave up! Offers start with a 1st plus a bluechip prospect.

[tas]

6 hours ago, hammertime said:

All things being equal If I had to pick 1.... I'd also prefer Domi. Neither are worth 6m. Buuuuuut at least we could probably sign Domi under 5m. 

I wouldn't take domi at any price point. 

[sxqhfeh]

same as Pettersson, he is a good young player, a potentially "star", but not a superstar player as AP mentioned, the way he plays right now probably worth about 4-4.5mil/year, if his next contract is around 6.5-7mil/year, Canucks would love to keep him, but after 2 year how can you pay a potential "star" for 9.5mil-10mil X8 years?, even worst than Miller's situation

Edited April 6, 2022 by sxqhfeh

[Baggins]

8 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

We are not 10th in raw capacity or percentage?  ESPN says we are smack in the middle.  This is also a pandemic year in which hockey-starved fans would've still filled seats to watch Green and Benning bury us into the ground.  But instead we got a personnel change that excited the team and made them fun to watch - they were the talk of the town again.  People were interested to see what was going on in Rogers Arena.  This overall excitement for change will sink or swim based on the moves this summer.

 

 

@hammertime You suggested a wings/avs style rebuild.  One team has done well AND been lucky while the other team has struggled.  I think Colorado benefited from some extreme draft luck, and it took some excellent management to salvage that rebuild.  Landeskog represents the start of the rebuild (2011) while Makar represents the end (2017).  From there, it still took a couple more years to elevate to contender status.  They gave up Duchene and Barrie, and they now have Kadri, Byram, and (indirectly) Grubauer.

 

  I expect the Canucks to trade Miller this summer and get an insane return.  But do the Canucks have the bravery to trade guys like Pettersson or Demko five years from now?  Do the fans and ownership have the patience to suck for years and trade everything away for picks?  Hard to say.  But we don't want to end up lost and directionless like Detroit.  They are in serious trouble.

Well when Burke came in with the order to cut payroll, and stop the financial bleeding, after trading away Bure and Mogilny (among others) attendance dropped below the Coyotes. And he didn't actually do a full on team tank going after only unproven prospects and picks in return. Benning tried to put a team on the ice with a chance, even if slim, while rebuilding and attendance didn't fall off a cliff, like it did for Burke, throughout it.

[Coconuts]

9 hours ago, JM_ said:

then why not go full tank then? stop trying to fix Bennings mistakes and rebuild the whole thing other than Petey and Hughes. 

Because I don't believe a rebuild that extreme is necessary, I also don't believe tanking really works anymore, not with the lottery and our luck being the way they are. If we make moves, take steps back, and draft a bit higher as we restructure things I'm fine with that though. I expect there to be growing pains anyway. 

 

We have some good assets to build around in Horvat, Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko. You need two good center's to compete in this league and Bo gives us at least one. I'm okay with Pettersson being given the rope to struggle and grow as a center if that's what it takes. Bo would be 28 when his extension kicks in, I'd be alright with a contract that takes him to 33-34 because I see him as a player who could be effective til at least 33. If he wanted 7-8 years though? I dunno, not as comfortable with that. I don't want to pay Miller til he's 36, same goes for Bo. 

 

I suppose what happens with Bo depends on what he wants in a contract. Six years is about as long as I'd be comfortable going. There's value in having vets, but I'm not a fan of contracts that roll into a player's mid/late 30's. 

 

For me everyone not named Horvat, Pettersson, Demko, Podz, and Hughes is on the table, that's just three more players than you mentiond. Horvat could be if his ask is too steep, but I think a deal gets done. But then again, depends on who and what's on the table as far as trade offers go.

 

7 hours ago, Sativika said:

It always depends on what one gets in return. Especially for aforementioned players in your 2nd sentence. I'd be okay to trade any of the above. Miller definitely must be looked at for a trade, as he's the best asset we have that teams want. The other players I don't think will get us much more than later round picks, prospects or both. I think Miller will net us all that and perhaps a useable roster player ta' boot! Although anything resembling what we gave up to get him...probably not. I'd be surprised if we got a 1st rounder.

 

I think Bo should stay. Really, ever since he got established here as our leader, he never did get wingers that allowed him success. Sure Baertschi was one, and seems Pearson, and or Hogs are in the mix, but there seemed never to be a consummate line for Bo. No "Lotto," "West Coast Express," or, "Mattress" line per se, but you get my meaning. 

Now, just because he's got roots here doesn't mean he's not movable. As always, if the price is right, then so be it. But....I think we keep him for reasons of his leadership with our present young core group, and upcoming young stars!

Miller easily gets a 1st, that's not even the minimum. A fair offer likely involves a 1st, a young high end roster player, and a blue chip prospect. He's worth that. If all it took was a 1st he'd have been gone at the deadline imo. But yeah, I'm fully on board the trade Miller train.

 

I'd keep Bo, we have nobody else in the system who does what he does for us, and I'm fine extending him and keeping him around as one of the team's vets. I see him still being worth having round at 33. The max I'd give him is six years though, as mentioned. He's moveable, sure, but because of those roots I think he's more likely to stay than go. 

 

I'm a fan of Bo, I like him as a captain.

 

3 hours ago, sxqhfeh said:

same as Pettersson, he is a good young player, a potentially "star", but not a superstar player as AP mentioned, the way he plays right now probably worth about 4-4.5mil/year, if his next contract is around 6.5-7mil/year, Canucks would love to keep him, but after 2 year how can you pay a potential "star" for 9.5mil-10mil X8 years?, even worst than Miller's situation

I love how Hansen doesn't leave the kid gloves on for his old team, it's refreshing. KB3 too. If these guys see it I don't see how some fans don't.