So You Wanna Build a Contender?

[iceman64]

6 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

i call BS on this.

 

 Canucks fans have to be the most patient fans in the NHL.  We’ve all gotten conditioned to it. Which is not necessarily a good thing.  But because of that most true fans have waited so long that we’d swallow another 4 or 5 years IF it garanteed contender status and a sustainable one.

i especially call BS on fans not accepting a rebuild when JB arrived. He was introduced as the draft develop guru. It was more that fans with our green and blue coloured glasses, really really really wanted to believe the wisdom of the new draft guru when his conclusion was, not long after arriving, that we actually were closer to being a contender than he first thought. Draft Schmaft! Trade Forsling…trade McCann…. Trade 1sts….. trade 2nds……we are soooo close! No need to even retain our allotted number of picks. 
 

The impatience was not on the fans, it never has been. This is a smart hockey market. It’s been with ownership.
 

the alarm bells certainly started going off for me after a few years of watching JBs hamster wheel spinning.  Botch was right back then. We should have begun to build that army with new recruits. Fans here would have got behind it as long as there was a clear direction. 
 

even today, most fans are so jaded by now, We’ve hung in there this long that we would wait another 3 4 5 years if we saw a little commitment by ownership. 

Really? What on earth got us in this mess in the first place?? Omfg dude I've been watching this b.s. since day one and over and over it's been buy a roster with picks for the majority of the franchise history and that's exactly why we don't have a cup and after Gillis this team was a shi* show, broken and no depth but how is that any different from any other year before that since 70 f'n 4!! 

 Yeah sure it's fun to watch a butter soft skilled team with no depth or a tougher one but no depth but neither one can get through a gruelling grinding cup run. It simply doesn't work like that, remember when we said we wanted to model out team after Detroit? Well that's because they developed players that could step in seamlessly as if they were doing it all along and THAT is how you build a franchise that's a solid contender over the long haul. That is not Vancouver and never has been so no cup, big surprise... (Not so much) 

[Heretic]

@JM_  

Bossy is one of the NHL's all-time greatest goal scorers. He played for just 10 years, but scored 50+ goals in 9 of those years.

That's why he's #1 on the all time goals-per-game list (.762), ahead of Mario Lemieux (.754).

Mike Bossy is a four-time Stanley Cup champion & Hockey Hall of Famer.

Bure scored 50+ 3 times for the Canucks.

If you can't get me a 50 goal scorer - then get me 2 x 40 goal scorers.

[filthycanuck]

14 hours ago, IBatch said:

When we traded for Luongo to me at least, you could tell something special was going to happen.    He was otherworldly in Florida.   There isn't a goaltender the last 30 years that did what he was doing, night in night out on a bad team.    Was peppered.   Making crazy Hasek like saves.     But even with him our future was in doubt.   Sedins we're doing better but certainly not top players.     Kesler was just cutting his teeth.   Bieksa (who to me was a core player - over Hamhuis) and Burrows - who were those guys?   Burrows was obviously a core player too, nobody but Carter - and there were a lot of them - could get second line production out of the Sedins up to then.   So i'm agreeing with you.   It's still a young team getting it's sea legs, and a lot could happen just via core ascension still.
 

What did MG do with all the cap that Nonis never had?  Bring in the late great Mats Sundin lol.   20 million for two freaking years.   Glad Mats was a gentleman and left all that money on the table.   Otherwise we'd have never had any money for any support. 
 

One could argue 10 other teams right now also stack out better then us, but there are not that many that have core guys in our age group.   Aside from Luongo coming in - really i'd have to question that anyone actually foresaw that we'd become that good back then as well.    Guys weren't "killing it" yet.   Would anyone be surprised if EP exploded next season?  Might come as a surprise a little but not really.   How many people saw Kesler turning into the type of player he was, or Bieksa or Burrows?   The Sedins at least has the pedigree given where they were drafted - but before the lockout they almost retired. 

Sundin played a part on Kesler's development to becoming a Selke winner, he said so LOL. Just 10 teams? More like 20 teams. Seriously? Petey isn't elite, the guy whos never had 30 goals or 70 pts. He's hardly a top 20 player in the league.

 

Geez you Benning fan boys and your unwavering support for a guy who's 2nd to Keenan as the worst GM in the teams history. What did MG do with with the cap hit Nonis never had? 2 Presidents trophies, Stanley cup final and numerous division titles, the GREATEST Canuck era, with the GREATEST Canuck team ever assembled. Thats what he did.

 

What did Benning do? Go to Rogers arena and count the banners in the ceiling, remind me again how many of those are from Bennings era

[iceman64]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

That's a nice pussy.. cat... 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

Sundin played a part on Kesler's development to becoming a Selke winner, he said so LOL. Just 10 teams? More like 20 teams. Seriously? Petey isn't elite, the guy whos never had 30 goals or 70 pts. He's hardly a top 20 player in the league.

 

Geez you Benning fan boys and your unwavering support for a guy who's 2nd to Keenan as the worst GM in the teams history. What did MG do with with the cap hit Nonis never had? 2 Presidents trophies, Stanley cup final and numerous division titles, the GREATEST Canuck era, with the GREATEST Canuck team ever assembled. Thats what he did.

 

What did Benning do? Go to Rogers arena and count the banners in the ceiling, remind me again how many of those are from Bennings era

Sure.   3 plus ten is 13, don't get your panties in a knot - since Bruce took over it's pretty fair to say the team is above average.    Your freaking out over nothing.    Also MG and all his saved cap, was spent on Booth and Ballard.   Don't know why people would argue signing Sundin 2 years at 20 million was a good use of funds.   Sundin didn't have much of anything to do with Kesler and the rest of the team getting better - that's absolute fiction.    The Sedins made one comment about how that he helped them for the playoffs - and this was the comment "just play them like they are a regular season game and you will do fine".... because they'd struggled with the extra pressure i suppose, and somehow he's the reason for that core getting better.  Thats Malarky.   Extreme exaggeration, fan driven, media started.  

 

I don't know why one couldn't expect some core ascension from the one we have now still.   Its fairly reasonable.    And zero idea where this Benning "fan boy" thing comes from.   All fans know who drafted and traded for MG core.   And almost probably re-call it was the leagues weakest division too.   What he did well was go for it - and use his talents to his signings.   That savings went to two players we bought out.   Of course it was a good team, i cheered for them.  

 

The post your responding to was meant to read - that there are 10 other cores out there - in ADDITION to ours, that are better then the 3 "contenders" mentioned in the OP.   14 overall is about where i'd put ours, and that's a pretty fair statement, as of right now.    It's also pretty fair to say, that when the Burke/Nonis core became  MG's team, aside from Luongo who was a young star for awhile, that core kept getting better did it not?    Why would you think EP,  Demko, QHs have had their best years already?   I don't.   Naslund was in that sweet spot when he started to peak (was it 27?)  same with the Sedins ... same with Kesler.  

 

Im expecting roster changes.    And that's a fair avenue to take because JB didn't do it right.   Going to take some lopsided Quin like trades or some dreamy good draft luck or both to take this team out of the mushy middle.   

 

Keenan era sucked.   Blew up the best team we've ever had on paper anyways.   Those guys were all also entering their sweet spots.   Ohlund was coming up too, Aucion and Hedican also were a lot better then they were at the start of their careers.    But we can thank him to a certain degree for what happened next too.    Four years without Linden made the next two cores possible. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by IBatch

[Bathgate]

21 hours ago, JM_ said:

thats not a step back, thats tanking. 

When you are capped out with a mediocre team this is the only way to get into the playoffs, and a hope for the sc.

[JM_]

12 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

 

Not just support pieces though, the idea would be to try to grab high caliber assets in return, preferably in the form of youth already in the NHL or youth on the cusp of breaking in. Those are also pieces more likely to be cost controlled, which will be important going forward. 

 

but what if no teams are willing to give those up? what then?

 

I'll be very surprised if any teams rush to give us their best prospects. Thats why I see this as a situation of two extremes, do what we can to bulk up the current group or just sell off everyone over 23.

Edited April 5, 2022 by JM_

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

but what no teams are willing to give those up? what then?

We’ve been giving up those very assets for the last 8 years!  We just gave up a third for a 25 year old Dman.  There are stupid teams, like us.  

[hammertime]

Canucks fans have endured decades of suckkage. 

 

I think by and large most fans would buy into a full rebuild. 

 

 

[Coconuts]

30 minutes ago, JM_ said:

but what if no teams are willing to give those up? what then?

 

I'll be very surprised if any teams rush to give us their best prospects. Thats why I see this as a situation of two extremes, do what we can to bulk up the current group or just sell off everyone over 23.

Then it depends on what management wants to do, what Miller's looking for, and what teams are willing to pay. Rutherford has a reputation for making fair trades which is part of why he's been able to make so many. Don't be surprised if Miller's traded and it's not the home run some people hope for, which isn't to say it couldn't still be a good trade. 

[Coconuts]

22 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Canucks fans have endured decades of suckkage. 

 

I think by and large most fans would buy into a full rebuild. 

 

 

Yeah, I don't buy the mythology of "Canucks fans won't accept a rebuild". 

[BPA]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Yeah, I don't buy the mythology of "Canucks fans won't accept a rebuild". 

Canucks should done that from the start when JB was hired instead of a retool.  Trade assets for picks.  Tank hard and maybe Canucks could have been lucky to get McDavid or Drasitl.

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, BPA said:

Canucks should done that from the start when JB was hired instead of a retool.  Trade assets for picks.  Tank hard and maybe Canucks could have been lucky to get McDavid or Drasitl.

Probably should have, but with the lottery being how it is now I'm skeptical of tanking. 

 

That being said, if management were to come out and tell the fandom that they were going to rebuild this team and ask them to be patient the way the Rangers did I don't think they'd get the blowback some folks think they would. At least there'd be a clear direction and a stated unwillingness to settle for mediocrity. 

 

I'd rather be bad for a bit than a middle of the road team that can't make the playoffs, no man's land is death. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Coconuts

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Then it depends on what management wants to do, what Miller's looking for, and what teams are willing to pay. Rutherford has a reputation for making fair trades which is part of why he's been able to make so many. Don't be surprised if Miller's traded and it's not the home run some people hope for, which isn't to say it couldn't still be a good trade. 

I like to think about management decisions in terms of whats in your direct control. From that pov, whats the "easiest" thing to do if your JR? I'd say its the "sell everyone over 23" tank. Next hardest imo would be finding better complimentary players. The hardest thing to pull off imo is moving e.g., Miller and Boeser for the perfect team fits back, particularly if those deals require teams to move off their best prospects. Not only do teams have to be contenders, have cap space, like Miller but also be willing give up on part of their future. Thats a tall order imo.

 

 

[BPA]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

Probably should have, but with the lottery being how it is now I'm skeptical of tanking. 

 

That being said, if management were to come out and tell the fandom that they were going to rebuild this team and ask them to be patient the way the Rangers did I don't think they'd get the blowback some folks think they would. At least there'd be a clear direction and a stated unwillingness to settle for mediocrity. 

 

I'd rather be bad for a bit than a middle of the road team that can't make the playoffs, no man's land is death. 

JB was hired in 2014.  The recent changes didn’t take place back then.

 

Tank hard enough in 2014, could have gotten Eckblad, Reinheirt, or Drasitl instead of JV.  In 2015, could have gotten a shot at McDavid instead of getting Boeser (Cuz Sedins had a momentary resurgence).

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, hammertime said:

Canucks fans have endured decades of suckkage. 

 

I think by and large most fans would buy into a full rebuild. 

 

 

Yes i think we would.   Right now i think a re-set of the rebuild is absolutely ok given where we are at.    But it's not the only path either.  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, BPA said:

JB was hired in 2014.  The recent changes didn’t take place back then.

 

Tank hard enough in 2014, could have gotten Eckblad, Reinheirt, or Drasitl instead of JV.  In 2015, could have gotten a shot at McDavid instead of getting Boeser (Cuz Sedins had a momentary resurgence).

 

Yes we should have just torn up all those MG contracts.    Can't do that in this league.    Yes it also didn't work and wasn't enough.  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, BPA said:

Canucks should done that from the start when JB was hired instead of a retool.  Trade assets for picks.  Tank hard and maybe Canucks could have been lucky to get McDavid or Drasitl.

MG should have just let the Sedins walk.   That was the time to go into a rebuild.   And he'd have been fired for doing that too.   Could you imagine the fans back then?   A yearish away from a top team?  They'd have flew sorties of planes with banners.    

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Muttley said:

There is nothing wrong with the top two lines on the Canucks. There is nothing wrong with Quinn Hughes and Thatcher Demko. 

I'd try and find a way to move Pearson pretty quick though, doubt he'll age real well. 

Myers and OEL get paid too much and OEL will continue to be until he uses a cane.  We have Rathbone on the way, need a strong righty too though.

The bottom six is just not good enough to contend for real. Too small as well.  We lack girth, pushback, fighting ability, a nasty attitude. All a must for post season.

Trading our best player, (Miller), proves nothing, t's a step back unless he says he wants the equivalent of the state of California for his next contract.  Have to chat now.

I'm pretty sure Podkolzin and to a lesser degree, Hoglander will grow in to very good players. Not worried...  A huge test for Alvin will be to get that bottom six more 

serviceable because right now, they just don't match up well vs 70% of the league. That's a momentum killer.  IMO; Why we're not in the playoffs.

 

 

He's going to get a 6-7 year deal at 8.5.   As the baseline. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

I think this all goes deeper............

 

Fans in Vancouver, and Ownership have not learned through recent history, that purging and falling to the bottom is an acceptable plan.

 

It really IMO, this goes back to the Sedin's last contracts and not wanting to trade the Sedin's. The Sedin's sign contracts that prevented

 

the Canucks from trading them, same thing goes for Edler. IMO, those contracts were signed with those NTC's to appease and lower the Sedin's

 

contract asks. After 2011, the writing was on the wall and IMO, Aqualini, hired yes men to appease his ego. IMO, I still think Benning was a good hire

 

but his task was a retool, and that was given to him by Aqualini. So, when you put it all together...........all this is on Aqualini. He set the table.

 

Here we are in 2022 talking a rebuild, because too many short cuts were taken. Our farm is empty and we are capped out.................

 

So lets play the what if game. So "IF" game...........So the plan becomes.........trade the Sedins, trade Edler, trade Markstrom, Trade Tanev, have a down

 

turn and drop to the bottom (Rock bottom), take you own picks and add the picks and assets which would have been acquired, and build a very sound

 

deep team and farm system.  

 

It is not only the abundance of picks acquired from the suggested trades, and our own bottom picks, but also our cap would have been in such a position

 

that we could have been in on the picks and assets that teams got through taking on bad contracts...............

 

Quite possibly, Benning would have still picked Demko, Pettersson and Hughes, because we most likely would have been in and around the same position.

 

 

So that is all history, and "what ifs" only work out perfectly on paper, but history has shown, that with good management, the scorched earth plan does work

 

Now we have to take a realistic look at where we are now, and ask if we have the assets now, to take the next step and do we have the cap space and ELC's

 

to make adjustments. IMO, no we don't! Not even close..............so in reflection when should we have called Uncle? Well, I am not sure, that Benning really 

 

failed completely until this last trade, where we picked up OEL and Garland............where we moved our 1st and those almost expired Contracts................

 

To me, this has Aqualini's hand prints all over this, and I wonder, if Linden was still hear, if that trade would have happened.

 

I remember back to the good old 80's where we were not good enough for a good draft pick and not good enough to really make a playoff run, and

 

I think that is where we are today. History has a way of repeating it's self, doesn't it?