Rutherford interview on Donnie & Dhali

[ShawnAntoski]

15 hours ago, bigbadcanucks said:

Gillis seemed to have some autonomy for the first four years of his run as POHO/GM.  It seemed that the unconventional/progressive ideas (i.e., sleep doctor on staff, naming of Luongo as captain, improvements to locker room are a few that come to mind) Gillis had were well supported by Aquilini.  Even the "bold" signings (i.e., Sundin, Sedins, Luongo) would obviously have had Aquilini's blessing.

 

For me, and it's only an opinion, is that everyone in the organization overestimated the team's window of opportunity.  I believe the window closed in 2012 when the Canucks were bounced by the Kings, but two seasons under Gillis and four seasons (and counting) under Benning, the Canucks were trying to re-tool to keep the dream alive while the Sedins were still on the roster.  Gillis wanted to tear it down and rebuild after 2012, so it's safe to assume Aquilini became more involved in the hockey ops at that time.  Linden wanted to do a proper rebuild, but was pushed out, so it's safe to assume Aquilini was more involved than he says he was and Benning was the ideal guy because he was a head bobber.

 

I hope Jim Rutherford is the right guy for the job...the Pens under his watch didn't particularly draft very well (Mike Gillis has a better draft record when compared to JR during his time in Pittsburgh), he made some questionable signings (e.g., Jack Johnson), and traded away all but 2 first round draft picks, but with the benefit of franchise/high end players like Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury, Geuntzel (players he inherited) he did manage to win some cups.  I'm sure JR made the moves he did with his draft picks because the Pens have been in win now mode since they drafted Crosby and Malkin.

 

JR has the history of being part of winning organizations, so that gives him street cred, which is more than what can be said for Benning and his bumbling ways (though I have to admit, I was enamored with what appeared to be a significant role he played with the Bruins cup winning team in 2011...oh how wrong I was).  There's no evidence that JR is capable of building an organization from the ground up, but he's shown he can add and delete players from an organization to give it the best chance to win and win consistently over time.  I suppose it's just a matter of having the faith that Aquilini will be true to his word and allow JR to have full control so he can do what he did in Pittsburgh and Hartford/Raleigh in Vancouver.

Good point: that when it comes to leadership - it is ultimately about the results.  Overall, JRs' team has delivered despite the results of his decisions - is he just lucky ?  Perhaps in Pitsburgh - sure cause he inherited a team with future HOF's, as there core vs his time in Carolina.  Although, in Carolina defeating and facing a Canadian team in the finals can probably be considered lucky, as well cause when was the last time a Canadian team won the cup ?  Anyways, I do enjoy his pressers cause he seems realistic and having the backing of multiple rings helps backup, what he is selling.  Currently, I am just enjoying the playoffs and more so, the observation of the teams that had advanced.   Imo, JR has had some luck in play but it is also no accident that his teams got those rings, under his leadership cause of how he leads others & lives his life.  Early on, I was hoping for a young NHL executive to be the PoHO, from one the perrenial contenders: Colorado or Tampa but listening to his pressers and how the current front office are executing there moves, offers some comfort that he was the right hire - right now but time will tell cause it will depend mostly, on how Allvin will use analytics & his experience to his advantage, in delivering a successful retool.

[ShawnAntoski]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

 

I'm not even convinced of that personally.

 

I love Demko, and completely agree that he's likely a big part of our ability to be competitive over his current contract.

 

But 5 years is also a good amount of time to find and develop a replacement, if he indeed prices himself off the roster at the end of his contract. ESPECIALLY with Clark, the goalie whisperer, under contract and helping us both find, and develop guys.

 

It's also not unreasonable to assume we can afford to extend him and still be competitive. Tampa isn't exactly paying peanuts for their goalie, and seem to be doing just fine competing, thanks.

 

Focus on Hughes' and Petey's primes, build the organizational depth around that, including contingency plans for (eventually/potentially) replacing Demko.

 

I understand your take and I am just posting my point: having a franchise goalie that thrives in a high leverage situations, such as the playoffs is the biggest piece to winning a cup.  I understand, it is a small sample size but the way Demko, performed after Markstrom got injured in the playoff run, is the main difference between him & Markstrom: mental toughness.  Both EP & Hughes are good but they are a tier below the real superstars and we had seen with the Spoilers that having two future HOF's, without a goalie will not cut it.  As for the future, I agree that there will be some tough choices and I can only differ to JRs' resume and pressers - hopefully, by then Allvin has has had some success to sell, to any potential FA to convince them to come or stay.

Edited May 29, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I understand your take but my point: having a franchise goalie that thrives in a high leverage situations, such as the playoffs is the biggest piece to winning a cup.  I understand, it is a small sample size but the way Demko, performed after Markstrom got injured in the playoff run, is the main difference between him & Markstrom: mental toughness.  Both EP & Hughes are good but they are a tier below the real superstars and we had seen with the Spoilers that having two future HOF's, without a goalie will not cut it.  As for the future, I agree that there will be some tough choices and I can only differ to JRs' resume and pressers - hopefully, by then Allvin has has had some success to sell, to any potential FA to convince them to come or stay.

I'm not sure you do understand my take.

 

I agree you need a good goalie. I agree Demko is one. Nothing to do with sample sizes.

 

I don't agree that we can only be competitive with him on his current deal. Either he can be extended at a higher rate and we can remain competitive, just liked Tampa has with Vasilevskiy, or we have both time and staff in place to find an alternative high level goalie and develop him... and remain competitive.

 

There's zero reason we can only be competitive under his current deal.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I'm not sure you do understand my take.

 

I agree you need a good goalie. I agree Demko is one. Nothing to do with sample sizes.

 

I don't agree that we can only be competitive with him on his current deal. Either he can be extended at a higher rate and we can remain competitive, just liked Tampa has with Vasilevskiy, or we have both time and staff in place to find an alternative high level goalie and develop him... and remain competitive.

 

There's zero reason we can only be competitive under his current deal.

Other than Demko, are our key core pieces (Petey, Bo, Hughes) as good as the elite team core pieces?  I’d say, and I’m a series homer, our guys aren’t as good.  And imhao its Demko who is our difference maker.  Even though the Avs, Oilers, Leafs, and a few other teams have better core groups we have Demko.  When he’s gone, we no longer have that advantage.  So we need to keep him, and have room to do that when the time comes.  

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Other than Demko, are our key core pieces (Petey, Bo, Hughes) as good as the elite team core pieces?  I’d say, and I’m a series homer, our guys aren’t as good.  And imhao its Demko who is our difference maker.  Even though the Avs, Oilers, Leafs, and a few other teams have better core groups we have Demko.  When he’s gone, we no longer have that advantage.  So we need to keep him, and have room to do that when the time comes.  

Where in my post does it say I don't think Demko is good or that we wouldn't need a good goalie if it's not Demko?

 

FWIW, I think Petey can be about as good as Aho +/- and Hughes about as good as Makar +/-. We need to flesh out/more cohesively build the team around them (and Demko).

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by aGENT

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Where in my post does it say I don't think Demko is good or that we wouldn't need a good goalie if it's not Demko?

 

FWIW, I think Petey can be about as good as Aho +/- and Hughes about as good as Makar +/-. We need to flesh out/more cohesively build the team around them (and Demko).

 

 

Finding a goalie as good as Demko might be impossible during the peak Petey, Hughes years.  We need Demko to be our + + guy, in any series matchup.  Heck, JR has said more than once our goalie is why we win a lot of our games.  

[NucknAsia]

2 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I get it and valid points cause the messaging did change from JRs' first presser to eventually, a retool 2.0.   I believe Demkos' contract is the window for this core and JR said as much, in the interview that they need to be adding players instead of the opposite - but there are no quick fixes for the issues that are ailing the team: cap & prospect depth.  JBs' mess is well known to us all but it was Aquaman, who created & mandated that group; and the way he recruited JR, seems to indicate a person that implicitly admitted to some mistakes.  Ultimately, Aquaman has a binary choice: support JRs' plan & timeline or not.  Secondly and perhaps as important, JR mentioned autonomy in his first press but time will tell, what that means and good chance, JR walks if Aquaman becomes too meddlesome.

As for Miller, his demands & age are simply not compatible with the teams window and preferably, the team sells on any player above 26 yrs of age, except for Demko.  Too reiterate, Demkos' contract is the window for this core and I am cautiously optimistic that Allvin will be able to deliver, despite JRs' presence cause other GM's are also well aware of the Canucks issues.  Perhaps, by the draft some of the playoff teams & others dreaming of a playoff spot will revisit there rosters and give Allvin a call ?   I am certainly, very interested how this crew will use 'analytics & JRs' experience' to deliver a successful retool vs what Arizona & the Habs are trying to concurrently accomplish: a full rebuild.

Demko is 26, his contract runs till he's 30. Most goalies of his calibre play into their mid 30's at an elite level very easily. I don't think JR thinks the window is only 4 years long. Disagree there. Its alot longer, especially when Petey and Quinn are 22 and 21 respectively. Their window does not close right when they reach their prime! 

 

Goalies playing / who played well past 30 at elite levels

Fleury

Price

Roy

Brodeur

Hasek

Luongo

Rask

Tim Thomas

Quick

Lundqvuist

 

on and on...our window is not 4 years long. In 4 years it should just be starting. At that stage (contract ending / 30 years old), Demko would still have at least 4 years left as an Elite starter. Then 2-3 years as the backup. So we 'should see' who the heir apparent is by that time. I suspect we will be drafting a goalie in 2-3 years for that role.

Edited May 29, 2022 by NucknAsia

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Demko is 26, his contract runs till he's 30. Most goalies of his calibre play into their mid 30's at an elite level very easily. I don't think JR thinks the window is only 4 years long. Disagree there. Its alot longer, especially when Petey and Quinn are 22 and 21 respectively. Their window does not close right when they reach their prime! 

 

Goalies playing / who played well past 30 at elite levels

Fleury

Price

Roy

Brodeur

Hasek

Luongo

Rask

Tim Thomas

Quick

Lundqvuist

 

on and on...our window is not 4 years long. In 4 years it should just be starting. At that stage (contract ending / 30 years old), Demko would still have at least 4 years left as an Elite starter. Then 2-3 years as the backup. So we 'should see' who the heir apparent is by that time. I suspect we will be drafting a goalie in 2-3 years for that role.

JR has come out recently and said there will be no step back.  So he’s saying they are trying to build a winner for the now and for the future.  

[NucknAsia]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

JR has come out recently and said there will be no step back.  So he’s saying they are trying to build a winner for the now and for the future.  

what does that have to do with my point? I was talking about how the post I responded to suggested our window is four years long when petey and quinn are 22 and 21, and demko is only 26

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Finding a goalie as good as Demko might be impossible during the peak Petey, Hughes years.  We need Demko to be our + + guy, in any series matchup.  Heck, JR has said more than once our goalie is why we win a lot of our games.  

 

Again, where did I say we don't need Demko/a good goalie?

 

We already have Demko, under contract, for the majority of Petey/Hughes peaks.

 

Why can we apparently only contend with Demko on his current deal?

 

He's also said he'd like to build a team less reliant on the goalie standing on his head to win games.

[Fan since 82]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:22 PM, J.I.A.H.N said:

Yes... That is what I heard. No source I can remember??????

Well since they played LE on their national team the Sedins were probably consulted on the signing, but they don't strike me as the kind of guys that would lobby the GM or tell him what to do. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

Again, where did I say we don't need Demko/a good goalie?

 

We already have Demko, under contract, for the majority of Petey/Hughes peaks.

 

Why can we apparently only contend with Demko on his current deal?

 

He's also said he'd like to build a team less reliant on the goalie standing on his head to win games.

And how exactly is JR going to build this improved team, that relies less on their superstar goalie, while only steadily improving, when he trades Miller?  

 

 

[aGENT]

10 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

I suspect we will be drafting a goalie in 2-3 years for that role.

I also wouldn't hate something along the lines of Miller to PIT for Marino, Blomqvist, Poulin and their 1st.

 

Blomqvist can play in Abby for a couple years, backup for a couple years and then we can make a call on which goalie to keep, all while adding leverage to getting a team friendly deal from Thatcher. Trade the other guy for assets.

[ShawnAntoski]

26 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I'm not sure you do understand my take.

 

I agree you need a good goalie. I agree Demko is one. Nothing to do with sample sizes.

 

I don't agree that we can only be competitive with him on his current deal. Either he can be extended at a higher rate and we can remain competitive, just liked Tampa has with Vasilevskiy, or we have both time and staff in place to find an alternative high level goalie and develop him... and remain competitive.

 

There's zero reason we can only be competitive under his current deal.

I do understand your take: focus on EP & Hughes cause they are younger.  To reiterate my point: the CURRENT window is Demkos' contract - which you disagreed on - and it will depend on how well Allvins' retool will do, to convince any FA to stay or come.  Allvin has some headaches and some pieces to work with but this whole thing will rest on how many good decisions he makes vs the bad ones.  Currently, the team has the right coach with a franchise goalie signed cheap, in place but the cap constraints to improve will take some luck to get sorted out.  I am not thinking past Demkos'  contract cause there is still alot of things that needs to get sorted out before we get there and JR only signed a 3yr deal.   

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I also wouldn't hate something along the lines of Miller to PIT for Marino, Blomqvist, Poulin and their 1st.

 

Blomqvist can play in Abby for a couple years, backup for a couple years and then we can make a call on which goalie to keep, all while adding leverage to getting a team friendly deal from Thatcher. Trade the other guy for assets.

If Miller is going to Pit, the RFA rights to Kapanen are going to be part of the return.  

I could see Marino and Kapanen for Miller.  They are both in that 23-27 fully developed player age group.  

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

And how exactly is JR going to build this improved team, that relies less on their superstar goalie, while only steadily improving, when he trades Miller?  

 

 

By building a better, more cohesive team.

 

Filling our glaring holes at RD and 3C, and with adding more speed, grit etc throughout the lineup and finding little efficiencies.

 

Yes, we likely take a hit on our top 6F scoring by moving Miller. But if we get a GOOD 3C, maybe it frees up Horvat for a few more points/goals. A better more cohesive defensive unit maybe gets us a few more points/goals. Maybe we land Kuzmenko to replace a bit of that offense. Podkolzin continuing to improve etc, etc.

 

Maybe that better defense, 2 way 3C, added speed and grit etc also mean less goals against, improving our goal differential that way as well.

 

That's how.

[NucknAsia]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And how exactly is JR going to build this improved team, that relies less on their superstar goalie, while only steadily improving, when he trades Miller?  

 

 

The purpose of trading Miller is to improve the team in other areas. We have multiple holes, Miller (who is amazing). we can manage to win without - assuming we fill some of the glaring holes with his return.

 

We would still need to see improvement from within from players like Petey, Quinn, Bo, Boeser, Podz, etc. all of which is possible.

 

It takes a team to win, but Miller is not Gretz. Moving Miller should and HAS to address more than one glaring hole for us. If so, it makes sense.

Edited May 29, 2022 by NucknAsia

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

By building a better, more cohesive team.

 

Filling our glaring holes at RD and 3C, and with adding more speed, grit etc throughout the lineup and finding little efficiencies.

 

Yes, we likely take a hit on our top 6F scoring by moving Miller. But if we get a GOOD 3C, maybe it frees up Horvat for a few more points/goals. A better more cohesive defensive unit maybe gets us a few more points/goals. Maybe we land Kuzmenko to replace a bit of that offense. Podkolzin continuing to improve etc, etc.

 

Maybe that better defense, 2 way 3C, added speed and grit etc also mean less goals against, improving our goal differential that way as well.

 

That's how.

So, would Miller for Marino + Kapanen + be the right kind of deal?  

We stay competitive but by being better defensively?  

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I do understand your take: focus on EP & Hughes cause they are younger.  To reiterate my point: the CURRENT window is Demkos' contract - which you disagreed on - and it will depend on how well Allvins' retool will do, to convince any FA to stay or come.  Allvin has some headaches and some pieces to work with but this whole thing will rest on how many good decisions he makes vs the bad ones.  Currently, the team has the right coach with a franchise goalie signed cheap, in place but the cap constraints to improve will take some luck to get sorted out.  I am not thinking past Demkos'  contract cause there is still alot of things that needs to get sorted out before we get there and JR only signed a 3yr deal.   

No, that's not my point.

 

The CURRENT window has Demko under contract and Petey and Hughes entering their primes. That CURRENT window will still be open when Demko's CURRENT deal expires. 

 

There's zero reason we can't be competitive during his contract, or after it. I don't remotely subscribe to Demko's contact remotely dictating our contention window. 

[ShawnAntoski]

22 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Demko is 26, his contract runs till he's 30. Most goalies of his calibre play into their mid 30's at an elite level very easily. I don't think JR thinks the window is only 4 years long. Disagree there. Its alot longer, especially when Petey and Quinn are 22 and 21 respectively. Their window does not close right when they reach their prime! 

 

Goalies playing / who played well past 30 at elite levels

Fleury

Price

Roy

Brodeur

Hasek

Luongo

Rask

Tim Thomas

Quick

Lundqvuist

 

on and on...our window is not 4 years long. In 4 years it should just be starting. At that stage (contract ending / 30 years old), Demko would still have at least 4 years left as an Elite starter. Then 2-3 years as the backup. So we 'should see' who the heir apparent is by that time. I suspect we will be drafting a goalie in 2-3 years for that role.

You can disagree and I am not here to predict how Demko will be past 30 cause I believe the CURRENT window with this core is Demkos' contract.  IF Allvin is unsuccessful with his retool then there is a risk that one/both of Hughes & EP will want to go somewhere else to win there cup.  Also, no guarantee JR will be here cause he was only signed for 3yrs.