Unpopular opinion: Don't need top 10 defense to make the playoffs

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, Baggins said:

One goal at a time. It's how a team progresses. Do you actually believe once making the playoffs teams go "good enough" we don't need to improve the roster any further? As I said, no team goes from rebuilding to contender without the step in between. 

Again, who has stated we shouldn't try to make the playoffs? Is this even an argument?

 

The entire point of my and others posts is simply that, that's not an end goal, and that we have clear roster deficits that will need addressing, in short order, to actually attempt to get to that goal.

 

And no, with the Miller extension, we do not have much in the way of time being a luxury.

[DeNiro]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Again, who has stated we shouldn't try to make the playoffs? Is this even an argument?

 

The entire point of my and others posts is simply that, that's not an end goal, and that we have clear roster deficits that will need addressing, in short order, to actually attempt to get to that goal.

 

And no, with the Miller extension, we do not have much in the way of time being a luxury.

Who said it was an end goal? I think you’re the one making the assumptions there….

 

Just because management said the goal is to make the playoffs you take that as they’re not also trying to build a contender?

Both JR and PA have said time and time again the goal is to build a team that can challenge year after year. That’s not done in one offseason though. So the more realistic short term goal is playoffs and go from there.

 

Fans expect too much in short order from this management group. They’re not miracle workers. They have to deal with a weak prospect pool and some anchor contracts. Getting that solved is step one before anything.

 

[Baggins]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Again, who has stated we shouldn't try to make the playoffs? Is this even an argument?

 

The entire point of my and others posts is simply that, that's not an end goal, and that we have clear roster deficits that will need addressing, in short order, to actually attempt to get to that goal.

 

And no, with the Miller extension, we do not have much in the way of time being a luxury.

Several have stated there's no point making the playoffs unless you're a contender. The notion being, miss the playoffs and keep drafting high until you're a contender. No team in my memory has ever become an instant contender without that "make the playoffs" part before becoming a contender. Which is why I keep saying "one step at a time". 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Who said it was an end goal? I think you’re the one making the assumptions there….

 

Just because management said the goal is to make the playoffs you take that as they’re not also trying to build a contender?

Both JR and PA have said time and time again the goal is to build a team that can challenge year after year. That’s not done in one offseason though. So the more realistic short term goal is playoffs and go from there.

 

Fans expect too much in short order from this management group. They’re not miracle workers. They have to deal with a weak prospect pool and some anchor contracts. Getting that solved is step one before anything.

 

Nothing to do with management and everything to do with posters actual comments in this thread.

[canuck73_3]

14 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Again, who has stated we shouldn't try to make the playoffs? Is this even an argument?

 

The entire point of my and others posts is simply that, that's not an end goal, and that we have clear roster deficits that will need addressing, in short order, to actually attempt to get to that goal.

 

And no, with the Miller extension, we do not have much in the way of time being a luxury.

Who has ever said that just getting to the playoffs is the end goal?

Edited September 18, 2022 by canuck73_3

[canuck73_3]

3 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Several have stated there's no point making the playoffs unless you're a contender. The notion being, miss the playoffs and keep drafting high until you're a contender. No team in my memory has ever become an instant contender without that "make the playoffs" part before becoming a contender. Which is why I keep saying "one step at a time". 

Even the Blackhawks, arguably the best team of the last 2 decades took about 5 years of progress towards their 2010 Cup run. 

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Nothing to do with management and everything to do with posters actual comments in this thread.

Wanna provide examples of posters who have said that playoffs are the only goal?

 

All I’ve seen is people saying playoffs are one step in a long process. 
 

You’re coming to the conclusion that those two goals are mutually exclusive.

[Gawdzukes]

@Shayster007 is spot on. Defence wins championships and ours is simply not good as a team. That goes from the forwards to really everyone on the ice except for Demko. Up front Miller has to be far more responsible with the puck, especially as an $8m player. Petterson also has to shape up defensively. He is particularly poor on our own PP. As another top 6 player Boeser needs to put in some more work/effort defensively. He's just a passenger out there. That's half of our top 6 guys who are weak on the d side. As @combover said we scare no one defensively. We are super easy to play against.

 

The defensive side is an absolute mess with slow thinking, immobile RD. It's littered with question marks from the top to the bottom on both sides besides 2 players, and probably the worst prospect pool in the league. You simply can't ignore how well you play away from the puck and expect to be a top team. This team can add as many forwards as they want but are not going to be one of the better teams until they can overpower teams by scoring but also shutting the other teams down consistently.

 

Maybe Mikeyhev, and the new fourth line guys are the glue to make this happen, plus Petterson, Podkolzin, Kuzmenko, and co buying in. However, the overall defence looks real scary moving forward. Not to be a Debbie Downer but this is what will determine how good this team can be. It'll take total team commitment this year as compared to last year, simple as that.

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Several have stated there's no point making the playoffs unless you're a contender. The notion being, miss the playoffs and keep drafting high until you're a contender. No team in my memory has ever become an instant contender without that "make the playoffs" part before becoming a contender. Which is why I keep saying "one step at a time". 

Where are these posts?

 

I'm not one of those posters FWIW.

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Who has ever said that just getting to the playoffs is the end goal?

Go back to the start of this thread.

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Wanna provide examples of posters who have said that playoffs are the only goal?

 

All I’ve seen is people saying playoffs are one step in a long process. 
 

You’re coming to the conclusion that those two goals are mutually exclusive.

 

On 9/16/2022 at 7:18 PM, CanuckRookieFan said:

As a new fan of the Canucks I am content with just making the playoffs and getting a feel/taste of the post season.

 

If anything hockey games are an activity and entertainment, to be able to take a client or a date to a playoff game sounds really good to me. Just a few home games would be perfect for my personal needs of dating and client managment, in terms of Stanely Cup the real benefit is the extension of more games to attend and more hockey to enjoy, not so much the Cup it self as it has 0 personal benefit to me, anything that doesn't push your personal life goals forward isn't a priority in my books.

 

Bottom line making the playoffs is the goal, Cup is the bonus.

 

[DeNiro]

Just now, aGENT said:

 

 

 

You chose a brand new fan as an example?

 

I would call that opinion an outlier.

[lmm]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

I'm wagering that it will cost us one of Boeser/Garland, a guy like Rathbone or Hoglander and likely a B prospect or pick, to fill one of our two top 4 holes. From there, we'll likely need to find a UFA (ideally a cheaper, younger, college/Euro guy) to fill the 2nd.

 

This is the cost of the Miller extension. We're going to lose more depth, youth and gain less cap space to fill those holes now. And we best get on it sooner than later, before Miller's play starts to meaningfully decline.

I think the cost you put forward is about what you want to pay, provided you get equal value back

Devon Toews cost less

it would be fine as long as we don't pay that price and end up with another Tucky Poo

55 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Yup, completely agree. Not only that, but we are going to be trying to make a deal with only one  position of strength. I'd wager teams know that and will be wanting to take advantage of that.

 

I hate to say it, but the only way I see this team making it to a cup contender status is a ton of luck. We will need to hit on 1, maybe 2 lucky defense bets that pay off. It's hard for me to feel confident in the strategy when we are banking on luck being in our favour. Who knows, after over 50 years of bad luck maybe it is our time...

I think there are 2 kinds of GM in the league

the Quinn/Burke types

and the Gillis/Benning types

the Quinn/Burke types have friends in the business, they make deals based on both teams needs

the Gillis/ Benning types don't have friends, they are always trying to "win" trades and other GMs don't want to play with them

Take a look at Rick Tocchet, traded 5 times with good players going both ways

the first time it was Pittsburg and Philli.

 

Rick Tocchet Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

Canuck fans are obsessed with "not trading within the division" and "Winning the trade"

 

Winning the trade came from Gillis, he had no friends

 

Rutherford would fit in the Quinn/Burke category, imo

We will see where Alvin fits as time goes by

 

This is my long winded preamble to dis-agreeing with your bolded premise.

 

The reason I liked the JR signing, is that he takes Vancouver out of the realm of pariah into a management group that other GMs will deal fairly with

Alvin still needs to make good deals, but if the other GMs respect him and like/trust him, he will be able to make better deals than we have seen for a long time in Vancouver 

[canuck73_3]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

 

So one example is gospel? 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

 

You chose a brand new fan as an example?

 

I would call that opinion an outlier.

They literally started this thread you're posting in and my comments that you two are arguing with, were in direct rebuttal to this thread. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by aGENT

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

They literally started this thread you're posting in and my comments that you two are arguing with, were in direct rebuttal to this thread. 

 

 

That is one example, everyone who is a long term fan know making the playoffs is a step, not the end goal. Baffling you are even arguing this. 

[aGENT]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

That is one example, everyone who is a long term fan know making the playoffs is a step, not the end goal. Baffling you are even arguing this. 

I'm not 

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

They literally started this thread you're posting in and my comments that you two are arguing with, were in direct rebuttal to this thread. 

 

 

You said posters in this thread. There’s literally only one person with that opinion.

 

Everyone else has said that playoffs are step one and you build a contender off that. 
 

You pretty much are just showing you’re arguing over nothing.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

That is one example, everyone who is a long term fan know making the playoffs is a step, not the end goal. Baffling you are even arguing this. 

 

32 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Again, who has stated we shouldn't try to make the playoffs? Is this even an argument?

 

The entire point of my and others posts is simply that, that's not an end goal, and that we have clear roster deficits that will need addressing, in short order, to actually attempt to get to that goal.

 

And no, with the Miller extension, we do not have much in the way of time being a luxury.

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

This entirely misses the point. Of course you need to make the playoffs to win a cup. Likely need a few goes at it in fact, to actually win one. But far too many on here seem complacent to have "making the playoffs" as an end goal and this " team is good enough to make the playoffs" mentality is not how you win cups.

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Where did you get the idea that I simply want to make the playoffs every year? That's literally the opposite of what I've posted.

 

Some of us are simply pointing out that while yes, we're likely good enough to probably compete for a playoff spot, as constructed, that if we actually want to win a cup in the next few years, we have some major issues address. This team, as constructed, is not presently built to win a cup. While making the playoffs is great, and yes, nothing is linear and yes we need to make them first, it is not "good enough".

 

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Nobody anywhere in here has suggested we shouldn't try to make the playoffs. I don't even understand what you're "arguing".

 

We already know what our weakness are. We don't need to maybe make the playoffs this year to figure that out. Lack of top 4 D. Particularly of the more defensive variety to complement all our offensive puck movers (Hughes, OEL, Rathbone... Dermott to a lesser extent). One of our 3 top 4 D doesn't fit with the other 2, is eating up cap space preventing from fixing that, and expires the year after this one with no prospects on the horizon to replace him.

 

We could also use a legit 3C.

 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

You said posters in this thread. There’s literally only one person with that opinion.

 

Everyone else has said that playoffs are step one and you build a contender off that. 
 

You pretty much are just showing you’re arguing over nothing.

You don't build a contender off just making the playoffs, you actually have to continue to BUILD the actual team. You know, like fixing that D I keep mentioning.