What if we bought out OEL? (Updated June 16 2023)

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Not at all the same.   Back then the team was loaded with 30 plus year olds on their legacy deals, with the exception of Edler and Tanev (who were also UFA aged) ... even Hansen, a good support player, was claused up.    To me it wasn't any different then starting an expansion team under the 90's rules.    No pool.   Instead of a Rich Nash, or Dany Heatley, we started with Horvat (not terrible but definitely not a top tier pick either, no Patrick Stefan either lol).    It's why JB traded some of his picks trying to find a couple almost free tweeners. 

 

No argument there (though you did leave out 24 year old Markstrom who would go on to come in 2nd place in Vezina votes the season after he left the Canucks (yeah, he's flamed out but that was several years later & it's not like it was from a recurring injury he suffered as a Canuck).  Plus, significantly different priorites as Gillis for most of his time was hired to take the Canucks to the next level.  That wasn't Benning's job for much of his time here (I'll give him a 'mulligan' when the Sedins were still under contract & it's not like those two were that huge an anchor as they were largely responsible for one of the two times the Canucks made the post-season under Benning's watch).  

 

Look at the state of the farm club when Alvin/JR came aboard.  As empty as it was under Gillis.  No excuse there (imho).  Blueline a complete mess outside of generational talent Hughes (who somehow was able to develop under AHL coaching that Benning was responsible for).  Myers wasn't a flop but he's in exact same state as Bieksa was (imho) when Benning came aboard.  I don't think bad groan Garrison is mentioned much (in a negative light) because he fetched us a 2nd round pick without taking any garbage back.  Either that's a testament to Benning's abilities to trade a bad asset for a real asset or maybe he actually had that value (in spite of the NTC).  Garrison played top 4 minutes for the Bolts before that groan gave out (ouch, that hurts me even to say that.

 

Both GM's ultimately failed (for different reasons as each had different objectives).

 

Pat Quinn is still the benchmark to beat in rebuilding a club.  And it's not even close.  IMHO.

Edited August 4, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[IBatch]

29 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

No argument there (though you did leave out 24 year old Markstrom who would go on to come in 2nd place in Vezina votes the season after he left the Canucks (yeah, he's flamed out but that was several years later & it's not like it was from a recurring injury he suffered as a Canuck).  Plus, significantly different priorites as Gillis for most of his time was hired to take the Canucks to the next level.  That wasn't Benning's job for much of his time here (I'll give him a 'mulligan' when the Sedins were still under contract & it's not like those two were that huge an anchor as they were largely responsible for one of the two times the Canucks made the post-season under Benning's watch).  

 

Look at the state of the farm club when Alvin/JR came aboard.  As empty as it was under Gillis.  No excuse there (imho).  Blueline a complete mess outside of generational talent Hughes (who somehow was able to develop under AHL coaching that Benning was responsible for).  Myers wasn't a flop but he's in exact same state as Bieksa was (imho) when Benning came aboard.  I don't think bad groan Garrison is mentioned much (in a negative light) because he fetched us a 2nd round pick without taking any garbage back.  Either that's a testament to Benning's abilities to trade a bad asset for a real asset or maybe he actually had that value (in spite of the NTC).  Garrison played top 4 minutes for the Bolts before that groan gave out (ouch, that hurts me even to say that.

 

Both GM's ultimately failed (for different reasons as each had different objectives).

 

Pat Quinn is still the benchmark to beat in rebuilding a club.  And it's not even close.  IMHO.

Difference is all JB's guys he drafted were either on the team or on other teams.  Miller counts as a first.   Unfortunately so did OEL and Garland (face palm!).    MG drafted Horvat.   And only ever traded one first (Ballard).   So he doesn't get a pass - there was virtually nothing on that team, other than Horvat and Hutton, after six years of drafting.   This time, Allvin can trade. 

 

As for Quin.   Pre-cap so hard to compare, but what a master builder.   And he traded away a lot of fan favourites to build that early -mid 90's team.   Keenan actually made the biggest trade tree in history by ousting Linden.    He's hated (rightly so) but that trade brought us a Sedin,  Bertuzzi and eventually Luongo (and died with Markstrom walking).   So far we've traded Horvat.   Let's see what else comes up.   Allvin certainly has his work cut out for him.    Right now he's got Kuzmenko, Demko, EP and QHs that teams would be happy to trade for,  the rest meh:l, minor stuff or as of now cap dumps. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

33 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Difference is all JB's guys he drafted were either on the team or on other teams.  Miller counts as a first.   Unfortunately so did OEL and Garland (face palm!).    MG drafted Horvat.   And only ever traded one first (Ballard).   So he doesn't get a pass - there was virtually nothing on that team, other than Horvat and Hutton, after six years of drafting.   This time, Allvin can trade. 

 

As for Quin.   Pre-cap so hard to compare, but what a master builder.   And he traded away a lot of fan favourites to build that early -mid 90's team.   Keenan actually made the biggest trade tree in history by ousting Linden.    He's hated (rightly so) but that trade brought us a Sedin,  Bertuzzi and eventually Luongo (and died with Markstrom walking).   So far we've traded Horvat.   Let's see what else comes up.   Allvin certainly has his work cut out for him.    Right now he's got Kuzmenko, Demko, EP and QHs that teams would be happy to trade for,  the rest meh:l, minor stuff or as of now cap dumps. 

Quinn had double the problem.  No cap but ownership that wouldn't give him free reign to spend money like Gillis & Benning had (at least when ownership got in over their heads with the NBA team expenses).

 

edit:  I *still* think Garland is a good (supporting) piece.  At least on a contending team (granted his salary is a bit off).

Edited August 4, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[EddieVedder]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

The owners allowing the OEL trade was just criminal.   For once their "meddling" was seriously needed.    JB could maybe still be here, can't blame covid on him...but he did also not need to be a cap team the entire time, in fact it made zero sense that we wouldn't have extra cap to help contenders shed at the deadline.   Anyways ..."be competitive" was the mantra "so these young guys are insulated and have to win spots" etc.   

 

Linden.   Finally said publicly "the club wanted to go a different direction".   So still didn't really throw anyone under the bus - but we all can see that direction, was the pursuit of playoff spot no matter what lol.   JB did leave us with a couple gems, or his staff did anyways, in EP and QHs, and Demko.    That's really about it.   Brock, well if he's ready to play again and flip the script, maybe him too.   

 

Alf, I never felt any GM was going to create a miracle (what it would take), to build a contender out of post Sedin core one.    That core is Demko/QHs/EP/Miller.    Miller counts because we used an early 20th pick for him.    Unlike the Linden-WCE-Sedin team, we never had a Linden to trade, or a Bertuzzi.  Did we?    The time to pull it down is prior to UFA deals.    That's exactly what OTT did.   Traded EK, Stone and Zib...plus a plethora of support players, Pageau, Hoffman etc.   JB couldn't do that.   He had to wait it out ... three years later Burrows, Hansen, and Bieksa waived.    Hamhuis lol.   Well people shouldn't be so hurt over a mid rounder (maybe a 4th?) , it was his choice.   We all know that what we think we are going to get (Vanek for sure a second!..Motte etc) is a lot less than we actually do.    He did trade Garrison.   Funny thing, overall we were up one first and down one second between all the picks he "gave away".    The ones coming back (Garrison, Torts, Bieksa) are rarely mentioned. 

 

His biggest failure was not backing Linden the guy who freaking hired him.  And spending to the cap!    Most fans realize, you can't be a cap team year after year, and miss the show.   Especially when you're rebuilding.     His second biggest failure, was not letting all his cap shed.   The OEL deal.   We'd have two more top ten picks, no Garland and no dead cap for 8 years.   And likely not much difference in the standings lol.  Our PKers all left ... and we just sucked at PK, historically bad.   Then there are all the other failures that were a result of his main pursuit of getting back to the playoffs as soon as possible. 

 

Allvin.   Hope that the fanbase, doesn't freak out, if in two years they decide to pull the plug and rip it down and start over.     We might need to do that.  

 

But what do the owners know about hockey?    Its best they stay out of anything related to on-ice personal 

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

 

But what do the owners know about hockey?    Its best they stay out of anything related to on-ice personal 

Yep.    Wish we had Vegas owner.   He seemed to get it.  18 CAN players.  2 US ones.   Not trying to be a racist dick or anything, but they built a playoff team.   It was so obvious in the bubble how far away this team was.    So maybe some owners get it.   More than others.   I also get Stockholm and Vancouver have a ton in common.   So we should use what competitive advantage's we have.   And Allvin seems to get it too.  Soucy,  Bluegar and Cole.   We won't ever win a cup, if chasing playoffs and hoping for the best is the goal year to year.   Quin knew this.   So did Burke.  Believe Nonis and Gillis did too. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

50 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yep.    Wish we had Vegas owner.   He seemed to get it.  18 CAN players.  2 US ones.   Not trying to be a racist dick or anything, but they built a playoff team.   It was so obvious in the bubble how far away this team was.    So maybe some owners get it.   More than others.   I also get Stockholm and Vancouver have a ton in common.   So we should use what competitive advantage's we have.   And Allvin seems to get it too.  Soucy,  Bluegar and Cole.   We won't ever win a cup, if chasing playoffs and hoping for the best is the goal year to year.   Quin knew this.   So did Burke.  Believe Nonis and Gillis did too. 

Look at the work that team does in the community as well (to be fair to the Canucks, IMHO, they handle this correctly as well).

[EddieVedder]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yep.    Wish we had Vegas owner.   He seemed to get it.  18 CAN players.  2 US ones.   Not trying to be a racist dick or anything, but they built a playoff team.   It was so obvious in the bubble how far away this team was.    So maybe some owners get it.   More than others.   I also get Stockholm and Vancouver have a ton in common.   So we should use what competitive advantage's we have.   And Allvin seems to get it too.  Soucy,  Bluegar and Cole.   We won't ever win a cup, if chasing playoffs and hoping for the best is the goal year to year.   Quin knew this.   So did Burke.  Believe Nonis and Gillis did too. 

Exactly as Ive been saying.  Vegas built a team full of winners.  

The fact that we dont have a strong nucleaus of Canadians on this club should be an eye opener.  

[icycold]

15 hours ago, Alflives said:

The Benning era of total disaster after disaster was “Gillis’s fault”. LMAAO

So furface, how do you try and compare rosters from when it's like comparing apples to oranges, JB for the most part traded picks for improvements like JTM for example, and what he did get was Petey, Hughes, Demko, Podz, Hogs, etc which was a lit better than what he was stuck with at the start, yeah of course he made mistakes but if JV and LE and the rest hr at least tried to make us better instead of the usual b.s. of selling the farm as in every depthless roster we've ever had, like I said, he made his mistakes but he also made a lot of good moves so JR had something to work with that he never had to start with.

Seriously, go back and check the roster, we didn't even have any new up and comers back then either. Fk it was a disaster, I'm actually surprised he did as well as he did. 

 Why you don't remember all this Alf surprises me Alf but whatever... 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 hours ago, icycold said:

yeah of course he made mistakes

Hiring BOTH Willie D & Travis Green & keeping both around for 7 seasons combined.

[Dr. Crossbar]

Rutherford actually gave everyone a heads up six months ago ... like a big heads up that it was going to happen.

 

 

[canucklehead44]

14 hours ago, icycold said:

So furface, how do you try and compare rosters from when it's like comparing apples to oranges, JB for the most part traded picks for improvements like JTM for example, and what he did get was Petey, Hughes, Demko, Podz, Hogs, etc which was a lit better than what he was stuck with at the start, yeah of course he made mistakes but if JV and LE and the rest hr at least tried to make us better instead of the usual b.s. of selling the farm as in every depthless roster we've ever had, like I said, he made his mistakes but he also made a lot of good moves so JR had something to work with that he never had to start with.

Seriously, go back and check the roster, we didn't even have any new up and comers back then either. Fk it was a disaster, I'm actually surprised he did as well as he did. 

 Why you don't remember all this Alf surprises me Alf but whatever... 

hindsight is 20/20 but the year before taking over the Canucks had two first round picks (including a top 10) and in JB’s first year he had two first round picks (including a top 10) as well as his other picks in tact.

The two years leading up to and the first year of their tenure it looked like this:

 

Allvin 

1st - 1 (15)

2nds - 1

 

Benning

1sts - 5 (6, 10, 24, 24, 26)

2nds - 2

Benning’s complete lack of on ice success (made the playoffs because of Covid) and having so few draft picks along with several crippling contracts is inexcusable. Just because Quinn Hughes fell on to his lap and his scouts strong armed him into drafting EP40 he is hailed as having some level of competence 

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

8 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

hindsight is 20/20 but the year before taking over the Canucks had two first round picks (including a top 10) and in JB’s first year he had two first round picks (including a top 10) as well as his other picks in tact.

The two years leading up to and the first year of their tenure it looked like this:

 

Allvin 

1st - 1 (15)

2nds - 1

 

Benning

1sts - 5 (6, 10, 24, 24, 26)

2nds - 2

Benning’s complete lack of on ice success (made the playoffs because of Covid) and having so few draft picks along with several crippling contracts is inexcusable. Just because Quinn Hughes fell on to his lap and his scouts strong armed him into drafting EP40 he is hailed as having some level of competence 

 

 

The AWFUL hiring of Torts at least gave us a 2nd round compensatory pick.

 

*SEVEN* years of Willie D & Travis Greens have us:

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Ted Lasso]

12 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Rutherford actually gave everyone a heads up six months ago ... like a big heads up that it was going to happen.

 

 

Thanks for reposting this. He actually telegraphs buyouts this Summer and next season as well.
 

some key takeaways:

 

• we’re bringing in 25/26 year old players
• focus on developing them as part of a 3 year plan
• we might bring in vets at FA, but won’t trade a first for an older guy
• cap space is key to add players
• Barring trades, he was confident we could create cap space via buyout this Summer
• we have lots of young players, which is a good place to be
• We don’t have enough prospects, but are working on that

 

a year from now

•  the cap will go up $4-5M, which will loosen things up (opening up trades)
• some contracts will expire, and we may buyout other players who are underperforming (but hopefully they turn it around)

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Ted Lasso

[zimmy]

1 hour ago, canucklehead44 said:

hindsight is 20/20 but the year before taking over the Canucks had two first round picks (including a top 10) and in JB’s first year he had two first round picks (including a top 10) as well as his other picks in tact.

The two years leading up to and the first year of their tenure it looked like this:

 

Allvin 

1st - 1 (15)

2nds - 1

 

Benning

1sts - 5 (6, 10, 24, 24, 26)

2nds - 2

Benning’s complete lack of on ice success (made the playoffs because of Covid) and having so few draft picks along with several crippling contracts is inexcusable. Just because Quinn Hughes fell on to his lap and his scouts strong armed him into drafting EP40 he is hailed as having some level of competence 

 

 

Don’t need to quibble with the majority of your points but what does making the playoffs because of Covid mean exactly? By winning percentage they were   “In”, fair and square. This narrative needs to end. Let’s keep to the facts.

[Ted Lasso]

12 minutes ago, zimmy said:

Don’t need to quibble with the majority of your points but what does making the playoffs because of Covid mean exactly? By winning percentage they were   “In”, fair and square. This narrative needs to end. Let’s keep to the facts.

Agreed. There’s no need to diminish that years success to support a purely negative narrative. That was a bright spot for our core players, and a preview of how they can be successful in the playoffs 

[Ted Lasso]

When JR refers to underperforming players that could be bought out next year, would the obvious candidates be Boeser/Garland?

 

Probably too early to consider, but interesting that he has buyout targets on his radar a year in advance. Wonder if that puts any real pressure on those players…

[canuck73_3]

58 minutes ago, Ted Lasso said:

When JR refers to underperforming players that could be bought out next year, would the obvious candidates be Boeser/Garland?

 

Probably too early to consider, but interesting that he has buyout targets on his radar a year in advance. Wonder if that puts any real pressure on those players…

Neither are really underperforming though? 55 points in 74 games while dealing with losing his dad and constant will they/won't they trade him all year.
 

Even Garland picked up his play after the slow start the entire team had and still managed 46 points could have had another 10 or so assists if line mates could finish. 
 

I’m expecting a better year from both this year. 

[Ted Lasso]

13 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Neither are really underperforming though? 55 points in 74 games while dealing with losing his dad and constant will they/won't they trade him all year.
 

Even Garland picked up his play after the slow start the entire team had and still managed 46 points could have had another 10 or so assists if line mates could finish. 
 

I’m expecting a better year from both this year. 

True, and his interview was 6 months ago, not accounting for their back half performance.

 

FTR - I’m also expecting more from those two…just wondering if we can learn more about their plans from the interview, given how he telegraphed the OEL buyout this Summer

Edited August 5, 2023 by Ted Lasso

[canuck73_3]

6 minutes ago, Ted Lasso said:

True, and his interview was 6 months ago, not accounting for their back half performance.

 

FTR - I’m also expecting more from those two…just wondering if we can learn more about their plans from the interview, given how he telegraphed the OEL buyout this Summer

Boeser does need to score more this year though. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Boeser does need to score more this year though. 

He just needs to stay healthy (and the goals will come imho).  That's his biggest issue (again, imho).  A good off-season training program might help (I say this being a coach potatoe myself ).