-DLC- Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 11 minutes ago, Dannydog said: Worst thing that could happen in my opinion. Well unless he grows up and acts like a man. He did lots of grown up man stuff last night. I saw nothing different. He's become a spokesman for the team, a director of play out there on the ice (that his teammates seem to respond favourably to). He honestly is already taking on captain responsibilities. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, BigTramFan said: I think you are too focused on Miller's offense that you can't see beyond it. Defense is what this team needs. Miller's a good player, but we're not winning anything in the next few years. Who is going to replace Miller's offense in 3 years time when he declines? Defence is our greatest need. Trading Miller creates a new problem on offence. In 3 years, Raty or our 1st this year can anchor our 2nd line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, DeNiro said: We already proved we can’t make the playoffs with those players and Horvat. This team is at least a few years away from dumping bad contracts and building up their D core. What level of player will Miller be then? All those contracts you listed are unmoveable. If they weren’t they would have been moved already. Trading Miller allows us to free up space and probably get some decent assets back. He’s the type of player a contender needs, not a team that will still be building for another few years. At the very least, moving miller buts some time for other moves that need to be made and gives management the buffer to find the best deals for those harder to move contracts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, -DLC- said: So how do we replace JT's points? Because that matters too....remember the days when we couldn't score (I do)? Points and he is the only guy on the team good on faceoffs and 2nd, soon to be first, on the team in hits 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 13 minutes ago, DeNiro said: We already proved we can’t make the playoffs with those players and Horvat. I usually agree with 99% of what you say but this comment wasn't thought through (I believe). I mean, many teams "don't" make it with a line up...then they do. Especially considering the fact that things have been anything but normal in the past 3 years and you should probably be allowing for the dust to settle a bit (more). There have been ongoing changes and it's not the same lineup. COVID stuff Tanev gone/d sucks Big shifts in management/coaching Petey was hurt Demko was off We have some new additions that factor in as well. Also, people always talk like "changes" are automatic upgrades and improvements. Be careful what you wish for...that may not be the case. And giving up a guy like JT leaves a big hole so you now add one more to the list of deficiencies that "may" be improved upon (or not). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, DeNiro said: We already proved we can’t make the playoffs with those players and Horvat. This team is at least a few years away from dumping bad contracts and building up their D core. What level of player will Miller be then? All those contracts you listed are unmoveable. If they weren’t they would have been moved already. Trading Miller allows us to free up space and probably get some decent assets back. He’s the type of player a contender needs, not a team that will still be building for another few years. We proved that we couldn't win with the Country Club atmosphere and we are in the midst of rectifying that. This management group is just getting started and i imagine there will be drastic changes at the trade deadline and draft. Be patient. No one can predict how Miller will age so that's just speculation on your part. Not to mention no one can predict he will be here for his entire contract either. Remember we only know half the story, as fans, I am confident that those who know more then us will make the right decisions. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) It comes down to fans (and maybe management) believing we’re close to being a playoff team. If you believe that then sure keep Miller hope we squeak in next season, and then build and progress the following couple seasons. The problem with that strategy is that by the time we’ve built the team up into a playoff contender Miller likely regressed significantly and that’s 8 million dollars that you’re stuck with that you can’t use to upgrade the roster. I however don’t believe they’re close. They spent so much time focused on the forward group that it’s gonna take at least a couple offseasons to make it resemble an NHL blueline. And that’s assuming they make good moves and not poor ones. Edited February 19, 2023 by DeNiro 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannydog Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, -DLC- said: He did lots of grown up man stuff last night. I saw nothing different. He's become a spokesman for the team, a director of play out there on the ice (that his teammates seem to respond favourably to). He honestly is already taking on captain responsibilities. Time will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, -DLC- said: I usually agree with 99% of what you say but this comment wasn't thought through (I believe). I mean, many teams "don't" make it with a line up...then they do. Especially considering the fact that things have been anything but normal in the past 3 years and you should probably allowing for the dust to settle a bit (more). We have some new additions that factor in as well. I actually have thought it through. It’s thinking logically and not with emotion like a lot of Canucks fans are doing. Of course I want them to be a playoff team next season but it’s not realistic. You don’t just go from having some of the worst Pk and defensive stats in franchise history to being a playoff team the following season. I think some fans don’t wanna admit how deep the issues actually are with this team. We need to completely overhaul our D and rebuild the bottom 6 while dumping significant salary. You can’t do that in one offseason. Those are the type of things that take years. So it doesn’t come down to liking Miller or not, it comes down to realistically analyzing where this team is at, and more importantly where they’ll be in 3 or 4 years. Edited February 19, 2023 by DeNiro 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, DeNiro said: It comes down to fans (and maybe management) believing we’re close to being a playoff team. If you believe that then sure keep Miller hope we squeak in next season, and then build and progress the following couple seasons. The problem with that strategy is that by the time we’ve built the team up into a playoff contender Miller likely regressed significantly and that’s 8 million dollars that you’re stuck with that you can’t use to upgrade the roster. I however don’t believe they’re close. They spent so much time focused on the forward group that it’s gonna take at least a couple offseasons to make it resemble an NHL blueline. And that’s assuming they make good moves and not poor ones. This is a whole lot of speculation on your part. They won't necessarily "be closer" if we let Miller go either. It's all unknown because it's not just about slotting new/young guys in and smooth sailing with an upward trajectory. It could be the opposite. We say "upgrade the roster" but "changing" the roster doesn't always necessarily equate to an upgrade. Boy, we all should recognize that by now. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 32 minutes ago, DeNiro said: We acquired Miller for what was basically a 20th overall pick and a 3rd. Players like him are not impossible to acquire if you have the cap space. That’s what we need right now and why we need to deal him. When we’re ready to push for playoffs again we can take advantage of a cap strapped team and acquire another player like him. With his age and our cap situation we’ll have a very hard time improving our roster holding onto him. If there’s any reasonable deal on the table you take it. What are you spending his cap on instead? And what strategy/timeline does that serve? Also, why not focus on clearing Boeser and Myers cap first? And why does Petey resign here if we trade the next best point producer and only other top 6C? @DeNiro I have so many questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, DeNiro said: I actually have thought it through. It’s thinking logically and not with emotion like a lot of Canucks fans are doing. This is annoying. Emotional thinking is "oh no, a guy past 30 will regress significantly". Logical thinking is guys in good condition, in their 30's, aren't "old men" who will suddenly decline at a rapid pace as their aging bodies fail them. Emotional thinking is that fans know much more than the professionals in place making the decisions. Logic, to me, tells me they know what they're doing/working with. I really hate when that "we're logical, you're emotional" stuff gets thrown out there. It's weak. Logical is knowing that none of us can predict the future and young guys can fail just like the old guys. Experience factors in where speed maybe declines. On paper, sure....the plan to just "trade all the players", add water and instantly be on the right road sounds great. But it isn't logical to assume that'll be the case...it's as much a risk as anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 1 minute ago, -DLC- said: This is a whole lot of speculation on your part. They won't necessarily "be closer" if we let Miller go either. It's all unknown because it's not just about slotting new/young guys in and smooth sailing with an upward trajectory. It could be the opposite. We say "upgrade the roster" but "changing" the roster doesn't always necessarily equate to an upgrade. Boy, we all should recognize that by now. It’s not speculation though, look at the season they’re having. Teams don’t just do that kind of 180 without improving their roster in some way. We’re gonna have a hard time doing that without cap space. Again it comes down to timeline. I know fans hate giving up on a season, I hate it too, but next season will most certainly be another building season. The season after that they might be back on track if the right moves are made, but no guarantees. The question comes down to how many runs are we gonna get with Miller, and what is the risk of holding onto his contract for those runs. Versus getting that cap space and assets now and using that to help build a team that will have a longer window. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannydog Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, DeNiro said: It’s not speculation though, look at the season they’re having. Teams don’t just do that kind of 180 without improving their roster in some way. We’re gonna have a hard time doing that without cap space. Again it comes down to timeline. I know fans hate giving up on a season, I hate it too, but next season will most certainly be another building season. The season after that they might be back on track if the right moves are made, but no guarantees. The question comes down to how many runs are we gonna get with Miller, and what is the risk of holding onto his contract for those runs. Versus getting that cap space and assets now and using that to help build a team that will have a longer window. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket1994 Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, -DLC- said: This is annoying. Emotional thinking is "oh no, a guy past 30 will regress significantly". Logical thinking is guys in good condition, in their 30's, aren't "old men" who will suddenly decline at a rapid pace as their aging bodies fail them. Emotional thinking is that fans know much more than the professionals in place making the decisions. Logic, to me, tells me they know what they're doing/working with. I really hate when that sort of "we're logical, you're emotional" stuff gets thrown out there. It's weak. Good on you for continuing to fight the good fight today…..I decided to have some beers, do some cooking & spend time with my family / my 2 German Shepherd pups. This place is exhausting today / lately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, -DLC- said: This is annoying. Emotional thinking is "oh no, a guy past 30 will regress significantly". Logical thinking is guys in good condition, in their 30's, aren't "old men" who will suddenly decline at a rapid pace as their aging bodies fail them. In my opinion, this is completely backwards. Logical tells us a player heading into their 30s and beyond is statistically more likely to regress then get better or stay the same. https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/03/23/a-new-look-at-aging-curves-for-nhl-skaters-part-1/ Emotional response can get in the way if that because we get attached to players and hope they don't follow the statical norm. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, DeNiro said: It’s not speculation though, look at the season they’re having. Teams don’t just do that kind of 180 without improving their roster in some way. We’re gonna have a hard time doing that without cap space. Again it comes down to timeline. I know fans hate giving up on a season, I hate it too, but next season will most certainly be another building season. The season after that they might be back on track if the right moves are made, but no guarantees. The question comes down to how many runs are we gonna get with Miller, and what is the risk of holding onto his contract for those runs. Versus getting that cap space and assets now and using that to help build a team that will have a longer window. You've shifted the focus....speculation that involves Miller's future play. Speculating that we will automatically be "improving" and moves are "upgrades". Again...we're adding some players who change the dynamic a bit. This year, our goaltending has sucked. And yes, that does reveal some deficiencies but people here have zero patience. Look at our roster from a mere 2 years ago. No guarantees are ever the case...even IF we run with your plan. It's been a bit of a dog chasing its tail and there have been many changes. With more to come. I just don't think JT Miller being moved out will solve as many problems as it will create....here and down the road. While he's here, this baby faced team is getting a taste of being disgruntled and dissatisfied and not just to accept that with a cutesy grin and rhetoric spin. I don't know that that's a bad thing if they watch a guy like JT who gets pissed off...but stays here and battles despite that. Leads the way in scoring and pulls them out of funks (yes, he has). The "upgraded" cast may not be exactly the golden ticket that some here expect....that's logical thinking. To not just assume we'll get/be better. To understand we may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DeNiro Posted February 19, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, -DLC- said: This is annoying. Emotional thinking is "oh no, a guy past 30 will regress significantly". Logical thinking is guys in good condition, in their 30's, aren't "old men" who will suddenly decline at a rapid pace as their aging bodies fail them. Emotional thinking is that fans know much more than the professionals in place making the decisions. Logic, to me, tells me they know what they're doing/working with. I really hate when that sort of "we're logical, you're emotional" stuff gets thrown out there. It's weak That’s actually not emotional whatsoever. That’s based on simple logic and looking at the age that players regress. A 34 year old (Millers age at earliest we’ll be able to contend) will not be able to contribute like they did before they’re 30. That’s not some earth shattering claim, there’s plenty of evidence to back that up. I don’t have to say “I know more than professionals” they’ve already admitted that their initial belief of where this team was at was wrong. And they’ve shown that through their recent moves. All players are available but Pettersson and Hughes, tells me that they are thinking much farther ahead than their initial 2 years. So if that’s the case it’s not unreasonable to think that Miller might not fit in that timeline anymore. Fans liking certain players is the type of emotional decisions that don’t need to be made right now. It all comes down to when we can realistically be a contender. That timeline is not what it once was and people need to accept that. Edited February 19, 2023 by DeNiro 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRussianRocket1994 Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Shayster007 said: In my opinion, this is completely backwards. Logical tells us a player heading into their 30s and beyond is statistically more likely to regress then get better or stay the same. https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/03/23/a-new-look-at-aging-curves-for-nhl-skaters-part-1/ Emotional response can get in the way if that because we get attached to players and hope they don't follow the statical norm. Fair, but not every player does, or even sometime it’s only a little. It could go either way. I think the lesson for many is stop assuming (stating it as fact)…no one has a crystal ball! As I’ve said too many times today, happy medium with things. That being said, Deb is not wrong in saying that there’s a better chance of not declining if a player takes care of their health / fitness. Hell, look a Jagr! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Fans liking certain players We should all like players who: Win faceoffs Play physical/hit Score/get points Care/are "all in" Want to be here It's not about "liking" the player as much as what that player brings. An edge. It's been too soft for too long. JT's the kind of guy teams need when they DO get to the playoffs. But ignore all that. Not going to bother because that angle, again, is "weak". Fans liking the "idea" of instant upgrades through moves. But not factoring in that it could be a total flop. That's a thing (too). It's not one size fits all and some "like" the idea of a magic formula that'll work. Or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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